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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview A-0006, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Birmingham lawyer and politician U. W. Clemon describes his place in Birmingham politics and the city's continuing problems with race. Clemon discusses his membership on the Birmingham city council, the prospect of George Wallace joining the 1976 presidential slate, and his hopes for the influence of an increased number of African Americans in the state senate.
Birmingham lawyer and politician U. W. Clemon describes his place in Birmingham politics and the city's continuing problems with race.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
I'd like you to give me really just a very brief description of your background and particularly political activity.
Okay, do you want it basically biographically?
Yeah, just to summarize. Are you a native of Birmingham?
Yeah, I was born in Birmingham in 1943 and attended public schools here
in Jefferson County and attended Morehouse College in Atlanta for a year
and then graduated from Mills College here in Birmingham in 1965. I then
went to law school at Columbia University in New York and came back to
Birmingham in the fall of '68 and started in the private practice of
law. My activities really haven't been that political. I take it that .
. . some of the early cases that I handled dealing with school
desegregation, police brutality, the desegregation of the University of
Alabama's football team, those type of things put me in more or less a
political role. I first joined the Young Democrats in Jefferson County
in 1970 and was elected vice president. Other than that I've had no
prior political office. I ran, unsuccessfully, for the Birmingham city
council in the fall of 1973. It was a race for three positions on the
city council. I came in fourth. And then in the early part of this year
I became interested in a seat in the Alabama senate. I live in a
district that is roughly 85% black. The most heavily populated black
senate district in the state. And I declared for that position and had
virtually no opposition and am now the Democratic nominee for the state
senate from the 15th senate district
Is there Republican opposition?
No, there is no Republican opposition.
What did your parents do?
My father was a steel worker here in Birmingham at United States Steel. He had a fourth grade education. My mother was a domestic, when she worked. They were both born and reared and lived at least half of their lives in Mississippi and came to Birmingham in the early '40s. I was their first child born here.
How many brothers and sisters do you have?
I have five brothers and three sisters.
Did you have a scholarship when you went to Columbia?
Yes I did.
What kind was it?
It was a Herbert Lehman scholarship that is administered by the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund.
And you represented them here, am I correct, in legal . . . ?
Yeah, I am a . . . well, I have a legal . . . it's a fairly close
relationship with the Legal Defense Fund in New York. When I was in law
school I worked part-time at the Legal Defense Fund and then I became
what is now known as an Earl Warren Fellow. That is to say I was given
an internship after completing law school, which entailed my spending
roughly four months in a fairly intensive training program, civil rights
training program in New York. And then I spent the remainder of that
first year out of law school here in Alabama handling civil rights cases
under the tutelage of my senior partner here, Oscar Adams, who at that
time had perhaps more Legal Defense Fund cases than any other lawyer in
this state. And my salary for that first year was paid
Did you receive the endorsement of the . . . what is the organization . . . Progressive . . . ?
Prog—Jefferson County Progressive Democratic Council. Yes I did.
For city council and for . . .
Yes I did.
And for the senate.
Right. The city council race was a fairly interesting race. Arthur
Shores, who was the first black lawyer in the state to handle civil
rights cases, handled some of the leading constitutional cases involving
the rights of black folks in this case for a long number of
years—something like twenty-five years—was, in 1970, appointed to the
Birmingham city council. He was the first black member of that council.
And he was appointed to serve a term that was about to expire. He ran
for the position in the 1970 election and won handily over his white
opponent. Gathered quite a bit of white support. Well, he had total
white support, even in 1970. He and two other members of the city
council . . . I'm sorry, three other members of the city council were up
for reelection last October. In the general election there were
twenty-one candidates, including the incumbents, the four incumbents. As
a result of that election the field was reduced to six because Nina
Miglionico won the election outright. She had the backing of virtually
all the political groups in the city. The white councilwoman who did win
the election right out was required to be in the
Do you think that will be a sort of permanent thing or a one-time expression?
I think it's rather difficult to say at this point. I think it's going to depend to a great extent on what the council does in the upcoming elections. It's probably fair to say that within the last ten years the council has really not been reflective of the feelings of a majority of the blacks in the county. And it's been unresponsive, basically, to their interests.
Do you think, then, that reaction against the council hurt you also?
I think that's probably true.
Did you run ahead of Shores in the black precincts?
Oh yes.
Did you run behind the other two black candidates?
No, I didn't. I ran ahead of all of them, all the candidates in the black precincts.
I see. So you did not run very well in the white precincts.
No, I didn't do well at all in any of the white precincts.
To what do you attribute that?
I guess basically it was due to the efforts of the power structure here
in Birmingham to portray any black other than Arthur Shores as being a
wild radical. There's a group in Birmingham known as Operation New
Birmingham, which consists of the business and considered political
leaders in the city. It represents, for want of a better word, the
establishment. In the runoff, Operation New Birmingham, which is partly
funded by the city of Birmingham . . . It has as a goal the creation of
a new image for the city, formed sometime after the '63 demonstrations
and the image of Birmingham that was carried forward in those days. It
is, you know, being partially funded by the city. But the leaders, or
the officials of Operation New Birmingham created a new group called
BAG, Birmingham Action Group. And the Birmingham Action Group, which
operated out of the headquarters of Operation New Birmingham, embarked
on a campaign, by telephone and personal contacts, to arouse the white
voters in the city to the prospect of Birmingham being controlled by
radical blacks. They had these telephone centers and they distributed
literature in the white communities. And basically urged the whites to
come out and vote or less the city would revert, probably, into the
hands of irresponsible blacks. And, you know, the effort paid off
because whites did come out in large numbers. And the support I had
gotten in some white boxes in the general election was not there in the
runoff. Birmingham, unlike many other cities in the South and other
parts of the country, has not arrived at the point where a majority of
the voters in the city are black. So that whites can still outvote
blacks here in Birmingham. And that's what happened in the city
So to what do you attribute the election of Richard Arrington?
Well, Richard Arrington was elected in 19—, I believe it was '72. At the time that Arrington was elected, he was, politically, an unknown.
I see. Then he was an incumbent in this last year's election?
Right. He did not run again. He's up for election, I guess it will be in October. But when he was initially elected he had support of the newspapers and of most groups because Dick Arrington, up to that point, had been a very capable dean out at Mills College and had had no political involvement whatsoever. He wasn't considered to be a threat.
How do you assess his record to date?
I think he's had a very responsible record. I think that he has addressed
himself to the problems of the black community, unlike any other person
who has served on the city council. And because he has taken positions,
I think that he is in trouble politically in terms of re-election. If
some kind of massive voter registration effort is not made in the black
community, I think there's a very substantial chance that he won't be
re-elected to the Birmingham city council. Because he has publicly
attacked
In city elections, councilmen have always been elected on an at-large basis.
That's correct.
Do you see any effort to change that?
Yeah. I plan, as a member of the senate, to sponsor a measure which would require the election of city councilmen by wards.
For Birmingham or for all cities?
For all cities with a population of over 50,000. There are a number of cases presently pending here in federal courts here in Birmingham and in Montgomery to require the election of city councilmen or city commissioners by ward. I don't think that a suit has been filed against the city of Birmingham at this point, but I know there are some suits filed against the city of Pittsburg, also in Jefferson County and Fairfield. And I'm sure that if those suits are successful then it may very well be that a similar suit will be filed against Birmingham. That is, if the legislature by that time has not enacted a statute requiring the election of city councilmen by ward.
You're saying that the Birmingham Action Group is basically a political one?
Yes it is. It is a political organization. I don't know how much longer that group will be in effect. I presume that it will only become active as needed in city elections.
What kind of goal do you have in so far as legislature is concerned?
I guess my principal concern is to aid in whatever way possible in the
enactment of a new criminal code in this state. Alabama's criminal laws
and criminal administration in the state is nineteenth-century. And
there is presently a commission of the Alabama Bar Association which has
been studying the laws and has prepared a draft of a new criminal code.
I'll be fairly active in promoting that particular item. I'll
You're opposed to any form of capital punishment?
Yes I am.
For any crime.
That's right.
How about tax reform?
Well, I feel that the problem of tax reform with respect to individual
taxes is not really a problem in Alabama. We basically pay, I guess it's
about 5% at the most on individual taxes. In so far as corporate taxes
go, I very strongly feel that they should be increased. They are, I
believe, somewhere between 5 and 10%. I must say that that
Are you active in any party activity beyond your activity with the Young Democrats?
No, and I guess it's fair to say that I'm not really that active with the Young Democrats here in Jefferson County anymore. As a matter of fact we don't become active until an election is about to take place.
Do you anticipate that there will be a black legislative caucus organized?
No. I anticipate that there will be some efforts to organize such a caucus, but I believe that a majority of the blacks, the newly elected black legislators, will not want to participate in such a group if it has any kind of formal structure. I've talked with a majority of the newly elected black legislators from Jefferson County and there—
There'll be nine altogether? Seven in the house and two in the senate?
Yeah.
So the majority will come from Jefferson County.
Right. And the majority of those are against any kind of black caucus that is formally named as such. To be sure, we will at various times meet. But my feeling is that we'll meet in an unstructured situation and we'll meet as particular problems come up.
As I understand it, there is an association of black elected officials in Alabama.
That's correct.
Do you plan to become active in that?
No, I don't. I don't plan to become active in it.
Can I ask you why?
Because I don't think it holds any promise of really doing anything for black people. I think that it's basically a show organization. I'm not aware of anything it has done. And I don't see anything meaningful that could come out of my association with such a group.
How do you react to the possibility of George Wallace being on the national Democratic ticket in 1976?
The idea makes me sick. I don't think that George Wallace has changed and I would hate to see him as vice president. I have monitored, with some reasonable degree of steadfastness, the progress of the state in providing meaningful employment opportunities for blacks in state agencies. And that progress has been nil except to the extent that federal courts have issued orders directed specifically to department heads telling them to hire blacks on a certain quota basis. But even when that has happened the results have been far less than expected. So as I see it, George Wallace has had the power and indeed the duty of considering blacks for appointment to various positions. Of appointing various agency heads who would be responsive in that respect. I think he's totally failed to do so and I think that he has otherwise encouraged disrespect for the law, particularly when it comes to school desegregation. And considering all these things, along with his record in the whole area, I just don't see any change in the man.
What would he have to do that would indicate to you that he has changed?
He'd have to appoint some blacks to responsible positions
Do you think Alabama needs a state anti-discrimination agency, human relations commission, human affairs commission, human rights commission?
No, I don't think Alabama needs such a . . . Well, I think Alabama needs such an agency. I don't think that such an agency would be effective in this state. It would have to be created, as I see it, by either the governor or by the legislature or both. If it's created by the governor, its powers will be severely limited because there's just so much power that he has as the chief executive official of the state. He couldn't, for example, give to the commission the power to investigate, the power of subpoena, and that kind of thing. He couldn't give to the commission the power to impose sanctions in the event of noncompliance with the rules and regulations of such a committee. I don't think that the legislature would do it, but even assuming that it did, I don't think that it would be willing to give to such a commission the powers that would be called for in order to rectify the tremendous ongoing problems of racial discrimination in this state. And, you know, I just think that a human relations commission in this state would be a farce.
Under this administration.
Under this administration and given the present composition of the legislature.
What effect do you think it's going to mean, having fifteen black legislators instead of three?
Well, I think it's going to have considerable effect because along with
the presence of fifteen black faces in the Alabama legislature there is
the additional consideration that at least, at least twenty whites
Do you see blacks forming coalitions with the Republicans in the legislature on questions such as legislative reform?
Well, I don't think there's going to be enough Republicans down there to form a coalition with. I see blacks forming coalitions with whites of similar views. I mean so far as I'm concerned Republicans just not going to be elected down there in the legislature in any substantial numbers. I don't think there's going to be six down there. But, at the same time there will be whites—
We'll see. At the same time, there will be some whites who will, white Democrats, who will be more receptive to the points of view which the black legislators will be espousing.
Do you anticipate that the black legislators will make an
It may happen, but I don't think so. I mean I believe that there will be
some support for such a
What do you think will be the reaction if an invitation to meet comes from him?
With all the black legislators as a group?
Yeah. That's strictly a theoretical question.
Yeah, well, if he extends such an invitation to me, I think that probably most of the legislators will go. If he invites them to meet with him as a group, I think that probably would happen.
How do you react to those black elected officials who endorsed Wallace this past time?
Well, I have very strong feelings against what they did. I don't understand it. Johnny Ford may have been able to get some money for Tuskegee through the governor's office. And if that's why he did it, perhaps it was the politically expedient thing to do. Jay Cooper may have been able to get some money for Pritchard through an endorsement of Wallace. I guess if I were mayor of such a city, it is a factor which I would have to consider. On consideration of that . . . the effect of such an endorsement, I think that in all probability I would reject it.
Why?
Because I think it gives undue credence to the effort to
—possibility that Wallace will ever have to deal effectively with black
people in this state. I think, you know, that when Wallace was endorsed
by black politicians such as Johnny Ford, the effect becomes the same as
the declaration in Newsweek magazine that Wallace
received 20% of the black vote in the most recent election—which is just
not so. The fact that Johnny Ford endorsed Wallace and said that Wallace
is an all right man on the race issue means that a lot of people in
other parts of the country will believe that. They will not question his
credentials on that issue again. And if so, those of us who have lived
here under his regime from day to day, it sells us short.
How do you react to someone like Charles Evers?
Well, I just have to be brutally frank about Charles Evers. I have never been one who respected the intellectual ability of Charles Evers. I mean, frankly I think Charles Evers is stupid. I think that in this instance he was trying to jump on a bandwagon which he imagined was about to start rolling.
The reason I asked about Evers, of course, is that there's no way that George Wallace is going to send any money to Fayette, Mississippi.
Yeah, that's quite true. You know, there may be more sinister motives
involved. I say sinister . . . It may very well be that some of the
Democrats in Washington have passed the word to people such as Evers
that it would be a smart move to endorse Wallace. That Wallace on the
'76 ticket with somebody like Kennedy would be a winner
What do you think would happen—this is really a theoretical question—if you ended up with a Kennedy-Wallace ticket and a Ford-Brooke ticket?
I think probably Kennedy and Wallace would win.
Among blacks in the South?
Well, among blacks in the South, Ford and Brooke probably would make it.
But nationwide I think Kennedy and Wallace would. Nationwide I think
that many whites, many
Would you like to be a delegate in '76 to the national convention?
No I wouldn't. I think national conventions are utter bedlam and I'd rather watch them on television.
What do you think is going to happen in Alabama politics after George Wallace leaves the state scene?
Well, there's Joe Wallace . . . sons, I take it, of George Wallace. I
think what's going to happen after Wallace in Alabama is anybody's
guess. I think the whole thing is going to be up for grabs. I don't
think that he's going to be able to just tap someone on the shoulder and
put him in office. His charisma is an individual thing. I don't think
there's necessarily a spillover effect to it. Bill Baxley, I think, has
a very promising future in the state. That is to say, if the Wallace
forces don't kill his
Baxley's support of a limited capital punishment law . . .
Yeah, Baxley actively campaigned for a capital punishment law in the most recent session of the legislature.
Would that significantly hurt him among black voters?
No, I don't think so. There is, quite surprisingly, substantial support in the black community for capital punishment. Because, you know, one must not forget the fact that most often blacks are victims of black crimes. And I've had any number of black people, old and young alike, come up to me and say that they think my position on capital punishment is unreasonable.
How about sales tax?
Well, I would work against any effort to increase it. I think it would be unrealistic to talk about reducing it.
How do you evaluate the effectiveness of the Alabama Democratic Conference?
Well, I think that it's the most effective black political organization in the state and that is not saying very much at all. It is one of maybe two or three black political organizations in the state. But I think that because of its hookups with local black political groups, like in this county the Jefferson County Progressive Democratic Council, it has the rank-and-file people on whom it can depend to pass the word around as to what particular candidates are to be supported. It has a grassroots organization. And that is something, I think, that no other statewide black political organization can claim.
Is the National Democratic Party of Alabama fading out?
Very much so. Very much so.
Do you think their county affiliates will eventually be absorbed by the Democratic Party, state Democratic Party?
Not as such. I think that eventually those who are in the counties affiliated with it will end up in some ADC affiliates. But the NDPA, John Cashin group, which is really what it is, really has no base other than John Cashin. And I think that, you know, like the local group here in Birmingham has really no leadership. NDPA, to the best of my knowledge, has never won any election in Jefferson County, where at least a third of the blacks of the state are. It, of course, has some political power in some of the black belt counties, like Greene County and Sumter. Counties such as that. But with what I consider to be the increasing openness of the Democratic Party, the regular Democratic Party of Alabama, I think there's disenchantment with the NDPA. And I don't think it will continue, even in the black belt counties.
How do you assess the role of Bob Vance?
Well, I think Bob has played a very vital role. It is not an easy thing, by any stretch of the imagination, to oppose George Wallace in Alabama and live to tell it, in political terms. And Bob has managed to walk that tightrope very successfully. There is no question but that he is no flaming liberal. But he has opened up the party, I think, to the black folks in a way that it had never been done before and in a way in which it was not likely to have been done had the Wallace forces been able to wreste the chairmanship of the party from Bob last month . . . it was more than a month.
Did he encourage you to run?
No. For this—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
What happened is that after this runoff election last fall, when I came
in fourth among six candidates and there only being three places
open,
Which paper?
Birmingham Post-Herald. I suppose that
How do you assess the city of Birmingham and its governing body?
I think that the city of Birmingham is a growing city, unlike the last
forty or fifty years. I think Birmingham is again growing. And I think
that four of the council members are fully capable and willing
Would it be fair to say that it would be their position that there is no racial problem?
Correct. That's precisely what their position is. And until that . . . you know, until we reach the point that that is recognized or we reach the point where the majority of the voters in the city are black . . .
How would you define the racial problems in Birmingham?
I think that it's a problem of an image. I think that the effort has
been, concentration has been to try to destroy the image of Birmingham
as a city torn by racial strife. And as a process of all of the energies
of the establishment in the city being committed to that proposition,
they have been willing, perhaps even forced, to sweep such racial
problems as do exist under the rug. The problem for example that blacks
are not being hired by the various city agencies, or not being appointed
to various positions, responsible positions in the city government by
the mayor. The fact that police brutality in some cases and misconduct
and discourtesy in others, with respect to black folks, is still a
rampant problem in the city. The fact that blacks on welfare are not
treated with any reasonable degree of dignity. Or the fact that the
schools in this city are still segregated. All of these facts, I think,
are overlooked by those who run the city because I think it is felt that
any real attention or concentration on these problems would detract
from
How many schools in Birmingham remain all black, or 90% or more black?
There are about 87 elementary schools in the city. I would say that at least 25 of those are all black schools and at least 30 white schools are all white schools.
There is no busing order here?
No, there is no evidence of that. The last desegregation order entered in
the Birmingham school case was in 1970. Prior to Singleton and prior to the Swann decision.
Who's handling those two?
This office is our counsel in the case. My senior partner, Oscar Adams, is responsible for the Birmingham case and the [Bessemer] case. But recently I've become interested . . . well, recently I've taken time to do some on my own in the Birmingham school case. And for a year now, for one solid year, I've been filing motions in the Birmingham school case asking the judge to set the case down for a hearing so that we can have the school board come forward with some new plans.
Who's the judge here?
Judge Lynne has been the judge. In the last four months he has assigned the case to a new judge, Judge Kuine. And I talked with Judge Kuine two weeks ago and he said he's going to set down my motions in the next month or so.
What's your reaction to what I understood to be . . . and I sort of got
an only very cursory report, might have just been on radio or television
or something . . . but as I understood it that Frank Johnson had issued
an order in effect proposing an end to busing below the sixth
Yes. I have not seen the order. I've seen varied reports of it and have
heard various commentaries on it, on the wisdom of it. Those
commentaries principally coming from school board members and southern
newspapers. I think that the order cannot stand if the Swann decision stands, the Charlotte decision. As I understand
it, Judge Johnson in that case said that neighborhood schools, although
they are one race schools, can survive even in a system which is
historically
Were you surprised at the decision?
I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked to hear of the decision. Because
it was Frank Johnson and also because, as I understand it, U.S. Law Week, I saw some exerpts from the decision and the
decision contains, in effect, an apology for his having ruled that way.
Cites the cases in which he has in effect upheld the constitutional
rights of blacks, to say that he's not really a racist. He probably
isn't, but I do think that he's dead wrong in that case. This is not to
say that I believe that wholesale busing should always be employed at
the first grade level in order to desegregate schools. I don't think any
court has gone that far and I wouldn't advocate it. But at the same
time, I don't believe that the use of bus transportation to desegregate
elementary schools can be ruled unconstitutional out of hand.
Which case was he ruling in? Montgomery?
It was a Montgomery city school case.
Who's the lawyer in that?
Well, there are two. Sullivan See is one of the lawyers and then there are interveners in the case. And I believe Howard Mandell represents the interveners.
Is there anything else you wanted to comment on that I didn't ask about?
Don't think so.
Do you see in the future in Alabama coalitions developing between blacks and working class, blue collar whites?
Yeah, I definitely see that and I think that there is some effort in that direction already.
Will this congressional race be a test of that?
I doubt it. I doubt whether the Buchanan-Miglionico race will be a test of it. What Buchanan has going for him is the support of the Baptist ministry in the district. And that is a very powerful force to be reckoned with. The labor support which I presume Miss Nina will get will of course be drawing from the very same sources as the Baptist minister will be drawing from.
Is he a Baptist minister's son?
No, he is a Baptist minister.
I did not realize that.
And the son of a Baptist minister.
Was he a Baptist minister when he ran for Congress?
Yes he was. In '64 when he ran he was a Baptist minister.
END OF INTERVIEW