Title:Oral History Interview with H. M. Michaux, November 20, 1974.
Interview A-0135. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007):
Electronic Edition.
Author:
H. M. Michaux,
interviewee
Interview conducted by
Bass, Jack
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
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Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2006
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Source(s):
Title of sound recording: Oral History Interview with H. M. Michaux,
November 20, 1974. Interview A-0135. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (A-0135)
Author: Jack Bass
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with H. M. Michaux, November
20, 1974. Interview A-0135. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007)
Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (A-0135)
Author: H. M. Michaux
Description: 138 Mb
Description: 37 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on November 20, 1974, by Jack Bass;
recorded in Durham, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Linda Killen.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series A. Southern Politics, Manuscripts Department, University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
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Interview with H. M. Michaux, November 20, 1974. Interview A-0135.
Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
H. M. Michaux,
interviewee
Interview Participants
H. M.
MICHAUX, interviewee
JACK
BASS, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
JACK BASS:
How about first giving me just a little bit about your own background and
political involvement.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Well, I guess it goes back maybe twenty or thirty years ago when I
started out driving people to the polls to vote, under the sponsorship
of what was then the Durham Committee on Negro Affairs. Now it's the
Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People. And I've sort of grown
up in it. Have watched it closely. Done some work, you know, for
politicians prior to this, prior to my becoming actively involved in
politics. I guess it was a thing I just grew into, sort of. I think my
first actual active political fling was in 1964, the year I graduated
from law school.
JACK BASS:
You were how old then?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I was thirty-four years old then. I ran for the North Carolina House of
Representatives and lost. I repeated in '66 and '68 and repeated losses
in '66 and '68. In '70 I didn't bother to get involved, and '72 I got
back into it and won. Went through a primary. I think I came out third
in the primary, out of the three seats that were available, with no
opposition in the general election. I came out second in the primary
this year, '74, and had no opposition in the general election again. So
that's very short and very concise.
Page 2
JACK BASS:
Can you tell me a little about black political activity in Durham? Durham
has a reputation of being one of the most politically active cities,
both in North Carolina and in the South, insofar as black political
development is concerned. I get the impression that Durham's role in
North Carolina politics, at least within the black community, is very
central.
H. M. MICHAUX:
The reason for that being that we've got a pretty good, active political
machinery operating. The Durham Committee on Negro Affairs, now the
Durham Committee on the Affairs of Black People, has always played a key
role in politics in that we've been able to make recommendations to a
majority of the black community which they follow. The structure of the
committee is such that everybody in the community, particularly the
black community, participates. It's a nonpartisan effort. They've been
able to have these meetings, meet with the candidates, talk with the
candidates. Then sit down with the political committee of that
committee, make a decision, and give it to the committee as a whole to
make the decision on. And once the decision is made, whether you agree
with it or not, the people seem to have followed the decision. It's a
sort of a unifying type effort. In other words, prior to the final
decision being made, we argue, we back and support our favorite
candidate. Once that decision is made, however, the entire community
seems to follow it. As a result, we've been very effective in putting a
bloc vote together.
JACK BASS:
They put out a sample ballot. Does it ever include Republicans?
Page 3
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right. It has included Republicans, yes.
JACK BASS:
Do you interview each candidate?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes, we talk to each candidate.
JACK BASS:
Is it similar to what goes on in Greensboro?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't know how they operate in Greensboro. I'm not too familiar with
that. But I would assume that it's possibly the same thing. Most of the
black organizations have patterned themselves after our program here in
Durham.
JACK BASS:
How do you disseminate the ballot?
H. M. MICHAUX:
We have workers who work the polls. In other words, we will meet the
night before the election. The ballots will be printed up. We'll have
all the poll workers, all the precinct workers at that meeting and
distribute the ballots to them so that when they go out in the morning
they can work the polls, work the precincts. We send the cars out with
the ballot with the slate in it. It is handed out on an individual
basis. We also get computer printouts of voter registration lists for
each of the predominantly black precincts in the city, to make sure . .
. and we get them checked off as they . . . we have one person sitting
outside of the precinct, and as they come in, we check them off on that
list. And about two or three o'clock in the afternoon, those who haven't
shown up, we start making an effort to get them out. As a result, it's
been fairly successful.
JACK BASS:
Is there any sort of a central telephone number that can be called for
rides?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right. We use the Carolina Times office for that.
Page 4
JACK BASS:
How is that number disseminated?
H. M. MICHAUX:
By radio. The radio that's beamed to the black community. Just by word of
mouth. Everybody knows now that the Carolina Times
office is central headquarters on election day. There's no problem there
at all. It's also put on the ballot. Sometimes we will send out leaflets
about a week before stating that the campaign headquarters are at Carolina Times. Then we have a speaker bureau that
goes out on the Sunday prior to the election to make all of the
churches. We also remind them of the number that way.
JACK BASS:
How many members on the committee?
H. M. MICHAUX:
There is no set number, simply because the committee is an open
committee. In other words, we ask that everybody in the
community—actually, we consider everybody in the community a member of
the committee. Normally the way it works is that each group, like a
church, social or civic club, flower club, garden club, this type, will
send a representative and comprise the committee as a whole. Then from
the committee as a whole we've got four basic committees. The economic
committee, the civic committee, the political committee, legal redress
committee, and, oh yes, the housing committee. Five committees. The
membership of that committee are chosen from the committee at-large
membership.
JACK BASS:
Are they elected by the at-large membership?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, they are chosen by the chairman, who is elected by the at-large
membership. The chairman is John Wheeler, president of Mechanics and
Farmers Bank. He's been chairman at least sixteen years. John Stuart was
chairman prior to his going on the city council.
Page 5
Wheeler took over after that.
JACK BASS:
And the political committee consists of roughly how many people?
H. M. MICHAUX:
About twenty.
JACK BASS:
They basically screen candidates and reach a decision on recommendations
for support.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right. In other words, the political committee will screen the candidates
and will make a recommendation to the committee as a whole.
JACK BASS:
Are they invariably followed?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes. We've had arguments right and left. Once the political committee
brings back a decision, everybody doesn't necessarily agree with it. The
recommendations by the political committee can be overturned by the body
as a whole. In one or two instances they have, yes, that I can recall. I
know two specific instances where this happened.
JACK BASS:
Where does the financing come?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Individual contributions.
JACK BASS:
Does it come from within the black community entirely?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes.
JACK BASS:
Isn't this unusual? Not unusual for Durham, but unusual for the
South?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes, I would assume . . . we try to maintain our independence. And
therefore we wouldn't accept contributions from outside of the
community. If we can't do it on our own then, you know, there's
Page 6
really no way of doing it. But we can do it on our
own and we have done it on our own. So I guess it would be a unique type
situation.
JACK BASS:
Durham is unusual in having a basically strong black economic base.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right, that's true. The fact of the matter is that with the independent
institutions that we have and with the type of income, for instance,
blacks have enjoyed within the city of Durham as a result of the tobacco
factories and the hosiery mills and whatnot, we've done pretty well.
JACK BASS:
There are some basically strong black institutions. The banks, insurance,
university. Is there a dues structure?
H. M. MICHAUX:
There is no dues structure. We take up a collection at the annual
meeting. When it comes time for political moving we get contributions,
individual contributions. In terms of services in a lot of instances and
in terms of money.
JACK BASS:
How about poll workers, drivers, so forth. Do they get paid?
H. M. MICHAUX:
They get paid a very modest amount. Some get paid. Others do it on a
volunteer basis. A driver will get some gas for his car. He won't be
able to take a long trip on the gas that he gets for his car, but he
does get gas.
JACK BASS:
Roughly what would somebody get paid as a driver?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Oh, he'd get maybe ten gallons of gas plus ten dollars.
JACK BASS:
That's for the whole day. That's certainly less than he could make on his
job.
Page 7
H. M. MICHAUX:
It's more dedication, I think, than anything else. It's a way of life
with most of the people who work. I mean, they know that they are
expected to do this. They know that they have the support of the entire
community behind them. It really boils down to just a way of life.
Around political time, around campaign time, people become very active.
They become very involved, very concerned.
JACK BASS:
What percentage of the white vote did you get? And the change from the
first time you ran to the last time.
H. M. MICHAUX:
The first three times I ran my white vote was practically nil. What
happened was in the interim, I was appointed assistant district attorney
and stayed in that position for three and a half years and built up
something of a base. I'd say that thirty percent of the vote that I got
was white.
JACK BASS:
Did you campaign differently in the white community the last time than
the first three times?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No. I may have campaigned more in the white community than I did the
prior three times. I concentrated my efforts in the white community. In
'72, for instance, I had entrees to civil clubs, to garden clubs, to all
types of people in the white community. And as a result I used those
contacts that I had to do that. Not neglecting the black community at
all. Because irrespective of the fact that I was a black candidate, I
still had to go get the black vote. I couldn't take it for granted. I
could never take it for granted. Because it could kill me just as well
as it could kill somebody else, kill off somebody else. See, the black
vote can't elect anybody. We can doggone sure
Page 8
swing
that vote. What it is is just a swing vote. Look at Ike Andrews's '72
race against Jack Hawk. Ike won by eleven hundred votes. We concentrated
our efforts on Ike. As a result, that eleven hundred votes came
basically from the black community here in Durham. He had solid black
support. This is one reason, I guess, why Ike now says that Durham has
sort of adopted him. When Jack Hawk challenged the vote, the only vote
that was challenged was the vote in the black precincts in Durham
County. Nowhere else. And they couldn't overturn it, so Ike went on and
won by eleven hundred.
JACK BASS:
In round numbers, what is the black vote in Durham county?
H. M. MICHAUX:
The black vote could be fourteen to sixteen thousand. I don't say that we
turn out that many. It's very obvious that we don't turn out that many.
We turn out in many instances sixty to sixty-five percent of the vote.
In a good year, we can turn out eighty-five percent of the vote. But I'd
say we average about sixty to sixty-five percent of that vote. And when
you compare it on the same level as the white vote, then we're far above
the average white voter turnout. Percent of registered voters.
JACK BASS:
Do you know what percent of eligibles are registered?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No I don't, not right offhand. I did have those figures somewhere. Right
now it's in a state of flux. We've had a purging of the books. We're
having new registration periods all along the way. It's building back
up. It's not what it once used to be. This is true among the white and
black community.
JACK BASS:
Has there been any active move in the last year to organize any sort of
statewide black political organization in North Carolina?
Page 9
H. M. MICHAUX:
There has been a move afoot to do that, yes. And there will be efforts
made in the next year and a half to do that. We have been able to get
some groups together, but it hasn't been quite as successful as we would
like to see it be.
JACK BASS:
Is there any effort to organize an elected black officials'
organization?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, not yet.
JACK BASS:
Do you see that coming?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, I don't. Not right now I don't. Maybe if we had a statewide elected
candidate, or statewide elected official, it would probably work in that
instance. But the only black elected officials we have now, of course,
are local black elected officials. If we could, for instance, have a
Council of State member, I think we could get a viable organization
going then.
JACK BASS:
Georgia has a very active association of black elected . . .
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, that's true. That's a part of the national arm too, because there
is a national black elected officials' organization. It's odd that we
don't have one in North Carolina simply because we have the fourth
highest number of black elected officials in the country. I'm not sure
that Mississippi has one, and Mississippi has the second highest number
of black elected officials in the country. The first highest number in
the South.
JACK BASS:
Most of the Mississippi ones are very lower level.
H. M. MICHAUX:
That's true. I think I'm right on this. Mississippi
Page 10
has more representation in their state legis—they don't have it?
JACK BASS:
They only have one.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I thought I saw more than that.
JACK BASS:
South Carolina and Alabama this year both went to single member
legislative districts and the result was a substantial increase in the
number of black legislators. From three to thirteen in South Carolina
and something like two to fifteen in Alabama. Do you see any move afoot
to challenge the present apportionment in North Carolina and go to
single member districts?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Not yet. We are due for a reapportionment, I think it's '75. I know we're
supposed to do the congressional districts every ten years, which would
make it 1980. I think the last one we had for congressional districts
was 1970. But for state representation, it's either '75 or '76 when
we're due for reapportionment again. I'm not sure how that's going to
go.
JACK BASS:
How do you assess the Holshouser administration? In general and also
specifically in terms of response to needs in the black community.
H. M. MICHAUX:
First of all you've got to recognize that I'm a Democrat. Divorcing
myself strictly from the party, I would have to say that the Republican
party, prior to this last election which was the November 5 general
election, had made some inroads in the black community by key
appointments. Which they played on. They made about five key
appointments which gave them a great deal of publicity and say, "Look at
what we are doing." On the other hand—
Page 11
JACK BASS:
Who were these key appointments?
H. M. MICHAUX:
You had Rene Wescott here in Durham, who's the head of the department of
social services. Morris Key, who's assistant director of corrections.
Grady Davis, who was put on the parole board, paroles commission. You
got a couple of top rank commissions with blacks have been put on who
heretofore have never been on those commissions. Ron Barbee, I forget
the commission he's on. Then Walter Johnson, who's a Democrat, is
chairman of the new commission. They have not appointed any judges, for
instance, except one, Statler Bullock in Raleigh fulfilled a district
court judgeship. But nothing above a district court judgeship level. It
was Democrats that appointed Sam Chess, who's a special superior court
judge. They have traded on that, but by the Republicans coming into
office after having been out for seventy some odd years, they're at a
disadvantage. Because they don't have the people to draw from. The
people that they are getting are so-called newfound Republicans. So they
are at a disadvantage, particularly in the black community where you
have just a depletion of Republicans. So they're trying to win some
folks over. However, I think as a result of this last election, they're
just going to give up on the whole thing as far as black politics is
concerned. They are not attuned to black politics as Democrats may be.
Certainly most of your black voters are Democrats, registered Democrats.
But the Republican Party just has not developed a black program in order
to attract black politicians. I guess because of the national image of
conservatism that you have in the Republican Party.
Now Wallace, on the other hand, as far as Democrats are concerned,
Page 12
Wallace makes a good show for the Republican Party
as far as blacks are concerned. In other words, if anything would drive
blacks to the Republican Party and make them go, you know, strictly
Republican, would be for instance to let Wallace be the Democratic
nominee for president or vice president even. The Democrats would have a
hard time holding on to that black vote. I guess what I'm saying is due
to the fact that there has been no Republican administration to have any
experience with in modern times, what little the Republicans had done
prior to the November 5 general election was a great deal of progress.
And there was a decided effort on a two-party system. Among blacks. With
the central theme being that you're first black then you're either a
Democrat or a Republican.
JACK BASS:
Would you say then that Holshouser tried but he didn't succeed?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right, I think that's what I'm saying.
JACK BASS:
Did he not succeed because he didn't try hard enough or because he didn't
have the resources?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Because he didn't have the resources, basically. I think he tried. I
don't think he's going to try anymore, though, because of the
disappointing . . . in fact I'm looking for a complete turnaround. We
had been in talking with the governor and some of his aides about the
appointment of black superior court judges on an appellate level, for
instance. In a way, we were asking for special superior court judges, in
addition to the one that's already there. I notice lately that he has
appointed three special judges. They were all white
Page 13
and Republican. We got a list that we submitted to the governor of
blacks who were qualified and interested in becoming superior court
judges. Suffice it to say that maybe one out of the twenty or thirty
names that were submitted . . . maybe one or two were Republicans. The
others, of course, were Democrats. And the first question they want to
know is how many are Republicans?
JACK BASS:
But there were Republicans on the list?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Two, I think, maybe one.
JACK BASS:
But they weren't selected. Was that since the election?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, he appointed them day before yesterday. Monday. Made the
announcement Monday.
JACK BASS:
What sort of relationship did the black legislators have with
Holshouser?
H. M. MICHAUX:
We have a very amicable relationship with the governor. We don't have any
problem with him. We did side with him in one or two instances where the
Democrats wanted to take some of his powers away. We felt that that was
just wrong because if a Democratic governor were elected you'd have to
come back and change it all over again. Many of us feel that it's a
short-lived tenure, that you're not going to have another Republican for
some time to come. Some of his programs were good. Some we could
support. Of course others we could not support. Overall, we had a very
amicable relationship with the governor.
JACK BASS:
Did you meet with him as a group?
H. M. MICHAUX:
We never met with him as a group. We never really ever saw the necessity
of meeting with him as a group because at that time
Page 14
there weren't but three of us. We met on a couple of occasions with some
of the governor's aides when he had some special appointments that he
wanted made, that he did make. And we were introduced to the people
prior to their taking office. Black appointments. But we just didn't see
any need for meeting with him. Because all three of us were Democrats
and all six of us are still Democrats now. There will be six of us in
the general assembly. Two senators and four members of the house.
JACK BASS:
Do you anticipate there will develop any sort of a formal black caucus or
even informal?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Maybe informal. We call ourselves the black caucus informally. Somebody
would see us standing around in the halls talking to each other about
some type of legislation or something. But it would be an informal type
thing. It's pretty rough with six of us there and 164 whites in there.
So we really don't have time to sit down unless a real pressing problem
comes up. We make each other aware of whatever knowledge we have in
whatever area of legislation that's up.
JACK BASS:
Let me throw something at you and just get your reaction to it. It's a
theory that is not necessarily valid. One theory is that black political
development in North Carolina, to go back fifteen or twenty years ago,
was ahead of the rest of the South.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I would agree with that, yes.
JACK BASS:
But that today it no longer is.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I would agree in a sense with that, too.
JACK BASS:
One part of the theory is that because things were better in North
Carolina that when change came there wasn't as much change in
Page 15
North Carolina. The need for change was not
perceived as being as great, so that there was less change. And the rest
of the South has, in effect, caught up and North Carolina is just
another one of the southern states in terms of attitudes now.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think you're right. North Carolina was a progressive state as far as
the other southern states were concerned. I agree with you on that. I
agree with the fact that the other states have caught up with North
Carolina and, in instances, passed North Carolina. But I think it's
because we have a tendency in North Carolina to want to remain sort of
within the status quo. Maybe it was felt that we were too progressive
before. And we want to cut back now. In other words, progression has not
kept its pace in North Carolina. Because of the general attitudes of
people.
For instance, you take Durham. Durham has no reason for dropping, for
instance, from the third largest city in the state of North Carolina to
the eighth largest city with no apparent growth at all. You take
Raleigh, High Point, Fayetteville, Wilmington, cities like this that
have surpassed Durham simply because they have had progressive thinking.
And I liken North Carolina unto the city of Durham. We just are not that
progressive here. We made some inroads before. Durham was the leader, as
far as black politics was concerned. But we have sort of remained
operating under the same ideas and the same theories. In other words,
Durham I liken unto a mill town. It just won't progress beyond it's
boundaries at all. In the overall spectrum, why should people who work
in the Research Triangle be spending all of their time and their money
in building and living in Raleigh
Page 16
and Cary and
Chapel Hill and not Durham. We haven't made Durham attractive enough.
This is the thing. Why I don't know. Maybe it's because of the state
politics and everybody wants to keep it on a conservative level. I think
we're moving away from that. And I think this applies in North Carolina.
It takes time for people's ideas and attitudes to change.
Landlord-tenant legislation that benefits not only the lower economic
spectrum but the higher economic spectrum. The fellows down east tell us
they don't need that down there. We may need it in the piedmont but they
don't need it down there. I mean, you know, this type of attitude. We're
all right like we are. Leave us alone. I think it's this type of
attitude we're going to have to get out of.
JACK BASS:
The impression I get is that in eastern North Carolina that black
political development really is pretty undeveloped.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Very definitely.
JACK BASS:
Why?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Here again we go back to attitudes. They have not had the opportunity to
see blacks operate on the plane that they have in the piedmont. The
piedmont is supposed to be the more enlightened area. But here again,
the eastern part of the state has been a dominant area and they say they
treat our folks all right. They like us. And this is the general
attitude that has developed. And as a result they try to keep them down.
That's really coming out from under the sheets now. Because more blacks
are moving into areas in the eastern part of the state. More blacks are
taking a more active role as compared to a passive role in the past. So
that's going to change. Because I've seen the
Page 17
attitudes of some of the eastern legislators change. They are amazed to
see me or see George [unclear] or see Henry
Frye get up and expound on a bill articulately. I mean, this is just
amazing. They don't understand. But once they see it, then they respect
it. Once this happens, then they begin to see . . . you know, people
still sort of thinking half-progressive ideas, too. Not necessarily work
to the detriment of anybody. Or want to change their particular status
quo. Just want to make conditions better.
JACK BASS:
Registration is still relatively low, isn't it, in the east among
blacks?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, and that's going to take voter education. That's going to take just
more concentration on getting people out, to show them that they can go
and register without fear of any type of harm or recrimination.
JACK BASS:
Isn't this going to take some sort of statewide political
organization?
H. M. MICHAUX:
We have a young man who has worked diligently and has done a lot to
increase registration in the state, John Edwards with the voter
education project out of Atlanta. They've done a remarkable job. But
we're going to have to sort of do it on our own. If we're going to field
a statewide candidate, we're going to have to come together.
JACK BASS:
Is Howard Lee acceptable throughout the black community as a statewide
candidate?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think so, yes. I don't think there's any doubt about that.
Page 18
JACK BASS:
Well, if he runs for lieutenant governor, which is rumored and which he
doesn't deny an interest in, what will be the effect of that?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think it will have a great effect on increasing total registration and
increasing total participation among black community.
JACK BASS:
What do you think would be his chances of winning?
H. M. MICHAUX:
It depends. I can give you an example. In this last campaign for the
senatorial campaign and the attorney general's race, I travelled in
about sixty-five counties in the state speaking primarily to white
audiences. I think I spoke to two totally black audiences all during
that period of time. Supporting the Democratic ticket. And I was invited
to these groups. People come to me and say, "We hope we get an
opportunity to vote for you some time in the future." I think the
attitudes are changing all over. This was in the east and in the west.
Voter attitudes are changing. And I think that Howard has a pretty
doggone good chance. I'm basing that on my experience and what I have
heard. When I was in this race for the attorney general—you know, there
were eight of us in there—had we not committed ourselves—a lot of it you
can write off and a lot you take serious—had we not committed ourselves,
we think that you would have been our choice. Well, admittedly I got
into the race late, but I wanted to get in and feel the water, feel what
it was like. The responses that I received indicated to me that there
are people who are changing, that there are people who are willing to
work for a viable candidate, whether he be black or white. It just so
happens that I'm black. But I seem to articulate, or have
Page 19
articulated, some of the needs of whites. So I'm looked
upon not necessarily as a black legislator but as a legislator who
represents my constituency. And this is the same thing with Howard.
Howard is in the same type of situation.
JACK BASS:
The impression I got from just keeping up through the press accounts in
the attorney general race was that you, as leader of the black caucus in
the Democratic executive committee, after you withdrew really absorbed a
key role in determining Edmisten as the nominee.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, that's about true.
JACK BASS:
What do you interpret as the significance of the '74 elections in North
Carolina. The election of Morgan and Edmisten and the wipeout of the
Republicans almost in the legislature.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Well, I think it's a repudiation of a lot of things. Primarily I think
Jesse Helms helped Robert Morgan get elected, first of all, because of
his attitude. His attitude doesn't sit well with too many whites. You
don't even have to count the blacks in there. I think they realize there
was a mistake made there. The second thing was that the Watergate
situation undoubtedly . . . the Nixon situation undoubtedly had a
problem. And the economy. People think back to before my time and before
probably your time. I don't guess you lived any during the Depression. I
was born during the Depression. I don't know what went on. But the only
thing I know was that Franklin Roosevelt, a Democrat, brought this
country out of the Depression. And many people that the feeling . . .
the way I get around speaking and the way I hear things and see things .
. . people say we are in a depression. It's a depression of
Page 20
a higher plane than was in '29, '30, you know on through
'33. And they are hoping . . . they feel that the Republicans have
gotten us into this economic depression, with Watergate. And as a
result, the complete wipeout of Republicans just portrayed that. Now
it's going to be left up to the Democrats to live up to that billing
that they've got. Because if they don't do it in '76, the Democrats are
going to be wiped out.
JACK BASS:
Did it represent a repudiation of the Holshouser administration?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't think it represented a repudiation of the Holshouser
administration as much as it did the general economic trend of the
country and the Watergate situation.
JACK BASS:
But in addition to Watergate and the economic situation, you did have a
Republican administration here, and the defeat of the Republicans was
worse in North Carolina than almost any place in the country. And
Holshouser was out campaigning and it was his handpicked candidates
running.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Well, the other thing is I think he's got friction within his own party
that caused that, too.
JACK BASS:
I'm not sure I understood exactly what you meant when you mentioned
Helms's role. You mean the fact that Helms was sitting on the sidelines
or there was a reaction to Helms—
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think there was a reaction to Jesse Helms period, as a representative
from the state of North Carolina. I don't think that most well-meaning
people even want to identify with Jesse Helms. I
Page 21
think even some of the people that voted for him regret that they voted
for him now. Because, let's face it, Jesse Helms has made no significant
contribution since he's been there. If anything, it's been an adverse
contribution. If he's made a contribution it's been adverse to the best
interests of the people of the state of North Carolina. Because you go
somewhere, and you say that you're from North Carolina, then the problem
that you run into is people say, "Oh yeah, you're from that state with
that radical senator up there, Jesse Helms." You know, folks get tired
of that and become rather ashamed of it after a while.
JACK BASS:
How important is the Voting Rights Act in North Carolina?
H. M. MICHAUX:
It's important enough to have been applied in, I think it's about eight
counties, maybe eight or ten counties, where they had to apply it. This
has been in the eastern section of the state, too. I think it's
important to that extent, but I think we need it to still guarantee the
franchise.
JACK BASS:
Were you concerned when Morgan said that he would not vote to extend
it?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, I'm not concerned about that. I'll have to wait to see what Mr.
Morgan does when he gets to Washington. I'm practical enough to have to
listen to politicians most of the time and know that some of the things
they're saying they haven't quite thought out or they don't really know
the ramifications of it. I couldn't, for instance, tell you the complete
ramifications of the voter law itself. But I know that it has helped out
in areas where help was actually needed. I
Page 22
wouldn't
be surprised if he did not take a stand at all. I've got my fingers
crossed about Mr. Morgan. I remember 1960 as well. But I can remember
some other things about Mr. Morgan that have happened in recent years
that led me to support him as a candidate. Such as his helping to save
this law school down at North Carolina Central University. Whether for
selfish reasons or not, he did go in and help save that school. He made
some promises when he ran for attorney general that he kept. He
integrated the staff of the attorney general's office. He got three
black assistant attorney generals. He integrated the SBI. He set up a
consumer protection division, which is an infant and needs nurturing
along. You can't forget those things. And I had suggested to Mr. Morgan
that when he face audiences that he indicate the fact that he had grown
out of some things that may have been prevalent in the '60s. And I think
he finally articulated that in one of his press conferences after the
episode with Dr. Lake. I indicated to him that he maybe would want to
say that while some people grow with time and learn, others don't. He
didn't go quite that far. He said, though, that he felt that he had
grown out of the situation that he had become involved in in the
'60s.
JACK BASS:
What was the reaction in the black community to Dr. Lake's withdrawal of
support?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't know. Because I didn't even bother to feel the course out. The
first reaction, I think, was one that this is a political trick. When
the news first broke, I said, "Well, Lake is playing politics." He's
doing this because he knows that Morgan probably needs
Page 23
the help and this would try to turn the tide of the black
vote toward him. But if they did like I did, when they went back and
read Dr. Lake's letter, then they realized it was not a political trick.
That Lake was just as serious as he could be and maybe there may have
been some hope that Morgan had grown out of what happened in the '60s.
But I don't think it really made that much of a difference. There were
two candidates, Stevens and Morgan. Stevens was an unknown quantity.
Morgan was a known quantity with hope. I think that's what made blacks
go that way.
JACK BASS:
Did Stevens get any black support to speak of?
H. M. MICHAUX:
He didn't get any in Durham County. He had one or two people working for
him but even they backed out. I found that most of the black Republicans
were working for Jim Carson for attorney general rather than Bill
Stevens. He had workers down at the polls and he pulled a trick at the
polls that I think worked to his disadvantage. He had leaflets printed
up showing his block, his name, and his number. And that was all. Of
course when you hand this to an individual and he goes into the voting
machine, he flips up Stevens' number, or flips Stevens' number down and
then he pulls the straight Democratic lever and finds that it won't
work. What he does, he goes back and he flips Stevens lever back up and
pulls the straight Democratic lever. And then he tries to flip Stevens
name down and finds that it won't work. So he doesn't bother. So I think
that hurt him a whole lot. You know, this is just one isolated
instance.
JACK BASS:
North Carolina uses voting machines only in urban counties.
Page 24
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah. But I didn't see any sign of black support for Stevens anywhere
along the line. No huge pockets of it, not even is his own area,
Caldwell County.
JACK BASS:
How about Carson?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think here again you've still got the repudiation of a Republican
administration because of problems that exist. I don't think the Lillian
Woo situation helped him any. I don't think the Edmisten tax situation
helped him any, particularly when it was found out that the information
was leaked from the Department of Revenue. People begin to analogize
that to the Nixon administration, where tax data was given to the White
House. I think most people looked at that. And then I think Carson's
overall appearance . . . you know, he just didn't make a good
appearance. And Carson was a qualified candidate, I don't think anybody
could question that. But I think his appearance and just the times and
the circumstances in these couple of situations that came out led to his
defeat. Plus the fact, I think, that Rufus probably got in, rode that
Morgan coattails, too, a little bit. I think that had it been just an
attorney general's race, I think Rufus would have won, but it would have
been much closer.
JACK BASS:
How do you assess Hunt? Does this move Hunt into a much stronger position
as party leader because of his role in the campaign?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't think so. I think Robert Morgan is the party leader. I think
we've been leaderless for the last two years. Jim Hunt, while he's a
good friend of mine, I don't think displays the attributes
Page 25
of leadership that he could display. I don't think that he
takes the positive role that he should take. I think Morgan is probably
the undisputed leader and I think we'll see that in the next executive
committee meeting.
JACK BASS:
When is that?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I'm not sure. When they want to call it. It will be after the
mini-convention more than likely.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
JACK BASS:
Would he and Hunt basically agree on things?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think they will agree. I think that Jim Hunt is in a position that
they're going to have to sit down and agree on some things.
JACK BASS:
So Hunt's potential insofar as being elected governor will depend to some
extent on what he does between now and 1976 and how effective his
leadership is.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Very definitely. And how he and Morgan can work out any differences that
they might have.
JACK BASS:
What differences do you anticipate in the legislature next year, between
that and this past year, past two years, where you had a substantial
Republican minority. And that's gone. And yet the leadership in the
house is generally perceived to be more or less conservative.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I hate to think about it. I really do. And I'm scared that the press, for
instance, is going to come up and ask me some questions about that and I
won't have an answer for them. Because I'm a
Page 26
little
afraid of this next session of the General Assembly because of the
conservative leadership that's going to be there. I'm afraid also
because with the Democratic majority that we have, we are going to have
to be answerable to the people of the state. And it's going to depend on
what the leadership sees as their role in relation to what the people of
the state want. I can't make any assessment of it right now. I really
can't. I just feel that progressive measures may be in jeopardy.
JACK BASS:
Who in the house leadership is viewed as a prospective candidate for
governor, has indicated that he would like to run?
H. M. MICHAUX:
You mean in this coming session or the last?
JACK BASS:
Both.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Well, in the last session I think Jim Ramsey may be a viable candidate.
Gordon Allen may be a viable candidate. Kenneth Royall.
JACK BASS:
Where do they fit on the progressive spectrum? From one to ten, with ten
the most progressive and one the most conservative.
H. M. MICHAUX:
All right. Jim Ramsey, in my thinking, is probably the most conservative.
I don't think there's anybody who's more liberal. I think if you put it
on a one to ten scale with ten being the most conservative, you've got
Jim Ramsey at ten. You've got Gordon at about seven and you've got
Kenneth at about five or six. I'd put Hunt at about five or six.
JACK BASS:
Where would you put someone like Luther Hodges Jr.?
H. M. MICHAUX:
About two or three. I think Luther Hodges Jr. is progressive enough, he's
wise enough, and I think he's a very viable
Page 27
candidate. Whether he will be for '76 or not, that remains to be seen.
1980. There's a very good possibility that another Hodges will be
governor of the state of North Carolina. I don't know whether Luther
wants to go out on the limb in '76 or not. Until everybody's had their
second or third shot at it and have been clearly denounced. You've still
got to contend with Pat Taylor, you've got to contend with Skipper
Bowles. Then you've got to contend with the current crop. It's going to
be a rather crowded field, I think. You may probably have to contend
with Bob Scott. There are some rumors out that he may be leaning toward
that, or he may be thinking about running for lieutenant governor. It's
just too close to speculate. Don't know. But I think Luther Hodges is
definitely going to be a governor of the state of North Carolina. Luther
Hodges Jr.
JACK BASS:
Do you see any development of, not a black program in the legislature,
but . . . let me ask you this. What sort of coalitions are there in the
legislature? Between the black legislators and the progressive white
legislators. In terms of programs aimed at people of lower economic
levels. Is there an active "populist" type coalition?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, there isn't. And that's simply because everybody, including the black
legislators, want to keep their options open. And it's very necessary
that you keep your option open in that type of legislature. The reason
you want to keep your options open is because you either want to vote
for or against a bill. As the issues come up, we like to form the
necessary coalitions. For instance, tax reform. I
Page 28
think all of us are agreed . . . most of us are agreed that tax reform
is necessary. Now the type of coalition you form there is sort of hard
to figure out. But landlord-tenant legislation. We would have to
actively recruit a coalition there. Our recruitment of a coalition there
would depend on the people we recruit, what they want. In other words
it's a give-and-go, trade-off situation.
JACK BASS:
Is there any sort of an urban caucus in the legislature?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No. Each delegation has its own thing going for it.
JACK BASS:
Is there a Democratic caucus as such?
H. M. MICHAUX:
There is a full Democratic caucus.
JACK BASS:
Does it function effectively?
H. M. MICHAUX:
It functions effectively.
JACK BASS:
Is there one in each house? Does it have a chairman of the caucus?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes. There is a chairman of the caucus. Normally in the house it's the
speaker pro temp and in the senate it's the president pro temp.
JACK BASS:
Is that just by tradition?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, they are the majority leaders. And of course the minority party has
its caucus too and the minority leaders generally chair that. You know
it's going to work a little hardship in the senate this coming session
since there's only one Republican in there. I guess he'll be the
minority leader and the minority caucus and the whole shooting
match.
Page 29
JACK BASS:
Do you perceive the Republicans as being out of it insofar as '76 is
concerned?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No I don't. I think there's a possibility that . . . two things. If the
Democrats don't produce, the Republicans are coming back in. And number
two, if things level out, you're going to get a significant Republican
minority.
JACK BASS:
How about the governor's race?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think the Republicans will see the governorship . . . it will be
another seventy years. And I say that because . . . I don't necessarily
believe that ought to be the way it should be. But I think we're
basically a Democratic state, a party state. There's no doubt that
Holshouser and Helms got elected accidentally. It's got to be that way.
Because if it hadn't . . . you had Republicans running for the
lieutenant governor. You had Republicans running for Council of State
positions. Every Republican got beat except the governor's race and in
the senatorial race. It's got to be an accident. They rode in on that
last-ditch effort by Nixon, who at that time was at the height of his
popularity. Witness his landslide margin in that particular
election.
JACK BASS:
Does Skipper Bowles fail to effectively serve as party leader in the '72
election?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think he did. I think he failed. I think Skipper was so intent on
capturing the governor's seat that he forgot a lot of things. And that
he made a lot of mistakes. First of all, I think he spent too much
money. I think a lot of people said, you know, "Man."
Page 30
If he had stopped at a million dollars. You know, gear himself to
about a million dollars in that campaign. I think he really would have
had it. But I think people got the notion after a while that all he was
doing was just buying the governor's seat. And I think that worked to
his disadvantage. I think that some of the deals that I've heard about
and can't verify that he made hurt him. I can't verify them but I can
probably see the results of them. I dare say that in your getting around
you may have heard of some of these things, too.
JACK BASS:
What would be an example?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think Nick Galifianakis got the shaft. And there's another thing that I
see a problem with the Democrats in this state. They are not unity
minded. There was a move afoot to get Morgan and Edmisten, for instance,
to open up joint campaign headquarters throughout the state. That never
came to pass.
JACK BASS:
They did campaign together—
H. M. MICHAUX:
In some instances they campaigned together, yes. And this is one thing
about the black community. They believe in unity. We may separate on
ideas, but once we want to look out for the black community then we get
together. And I think more of this is going to have to happen in the
Democratic Party. There's going to have to be a unifying effort to bring
all factions of the party together and somehow or other say, "Now listen
fellows, we respect your idea and we respect your idea and we respect
your idea, but as a whole we have voted to do this. And I think this
deserves the support of all of us." Rather than somebody
Page 31
getting mad and taking off on a tangent.
JACK BASS:
Morgan was able to achieve this unity to a large extent, wasn't he?
H. M. MICHAUX:
He was. Yet and still, as black politicians we tried to get them to unify
more, solidify more the effort to bring all groups of the party
together. That happened, yes. I would agree it happened to an extent.
But I think it could be much more forceful. I think we need some
leadership in the party that's going to promote that.
JACK BASS:
You have any idea who Morgan would pick as chairman? Who?
H. M. MICHAUX:
His campaign manager, Charlie Winberry.
JACK BASS:
Would he be a unifying force?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think Charlie would. Charlie's pretty well-respected in a lot of
fashions. He's from the east. He appeals to those in the west. Blacks
seem to respect him. I think he could be a unifying force. I think he
could provide the type of leadership that would call for unification. I
don't think Jim Sugg has the type of—I don't want to say it, but I guess
it is—charisma that's needed to do it. It's a charismatic position. And
it takes a diplomat and a politician to handle it. I think this is where
Sugg lacks. I think he just lacks that leadership ability.
JACK BASS:
How do you perceive the role of women in politics in North Carolina?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Oh, as more powerful every day. I think women are becoming a more and
more viable force in politics than you could imagine.
Page 32
They are becoming acutely aware of politics. They are having more and
more symbols to look forward to. They are realizing the breakthroughs.
Take Mike Mullins down in Charlotte. I firmly believe that if Mike had
not switched around on his commitment that he would still be a senator
from Mecklenburg County. Even though he was a Republican. Mike was
young, personable. He had it up here. I think the women did him in. I
think one of the reasons that Gordon Allen may have a problem on a
statewide basis is because of his switch on the ERA vote. I think ERA
will pass this session of the legislature.
JACK BASS:
How about the role of women in black politics?
H. M. MICHAUX:
More and more everyday. Black women are becoming more and more viable
every day. They are not sitting home playing that role. They see too
many black women who are making it politically. You've got Cardiss
Collins, Barbara Jordan, Yvonne Burke. Three black congresswomen.
Shirley Chisholm, of course.
JACK BASS:
No black female legislators in North Carolina.
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, not yet. There have been some who have run. You keep it up and one
day they will be there.
[interruption]
JACK BASS:
When is North Carolina going to have its first black congressman?
H. M. MICHAUX:
That's a good question. Don't know. And I don't mind saying that
personally we are entertaining some thoughts along those lines. It
depends on a lot of things. I've got to find out about that
Page 33
redistricting. It seems like to me it's before 1980. I'm
just not sure. Because when Nick was redistricted . . . Nick served in
three districts. And I'm trying to remember when he was first elected.
He served three terms. All right. Then he ran for Senate in '72. So
evidently it was 1970 . . . the first time he ran, Forsyth, Rockingham,
and Durham. That was the district then. Went all the way over to Forsyth
County. Then they redistricted again in '68 and he ran from another
district that included Durham County. And then the last district. So
maybe it is 1980. But it depends on what Ike wants to do and how it
works out.
JACK BASS:
One theory we've heard, not in North Carolina specifically but in some
other states, is that the next wave of grassroots black political
leadership, which came originally from ministers and a lot of morticians
and teachers, and then professionals are moving into it. But the next
wave, particularly the grassroots level, is going to come out of the
labor movement. Is there any evidence of this in North Carolina?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, there isn't. Not a bit of evidence that I have seen in North Carolina
that it's coming out of the labor movement.
JACK BASS:
Any A. Philip Randolph Institutes?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, we have a chapter here in Durham that's very active. But it will be
a long time before it has progressed to a point that it will be
politically active. I just don't see it right now. I see it still coming
from the, really, from the professional ranks. I think there's going to
be a broader spectrum in the professional ranks.
Page 34
As
you said before, that your leadership prior to this time came from your
doctors and your teachers and didn't necessarily include your lawyers.
But the school principal and the doctor and the mortician in the
neighborhood where you were looked upon as recognized black
leadership.
JACK BASS:
How about ministers?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yeah, ministers, too. I'm sorry. Include ministers in that.
JACK BASS:
One theory that we've heard in North Carolina for the lack of . . . the
contention that there has been retarded black political development in
the east, is that a number of the ministers actually lived in places
like Durham and then just had their churches there and were not
available in the community on an everyday basis.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't think that's true. You've got established churches in
communities. Joy Johnson, for instance. Well, Joy is southeast. Joy has
been in Fairmont all these years and Joy was elected. Maybe it's been
the quality of the ministerial leadership that's been lacking in those
communities. Every minister that has some type of leadership wants to
come to the urban areas rather than the agricultural areas.
JACK BASS:
Do you think eastern legislators now perceive blacks as being an integral
part of their constituency?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No. The ones I know just don't. With one or two exceptions. I think they
could care less.
JACK BASS:
Has this been the result of the failure of blacks to become
Page 35
sufficiently active politically in the east?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I think so. If they make their forces felt one time . . . well, I can
look at what happened to Howard Lee's campaign against Fountain.
Fountain came home and campaigned. First time since he's been elected
that he's been home campaigning. I mean, really actively campaigning.
Because he knew that the percentage of black voters in his district
could hurt him if Howard could have mobilized that force. So he came
home and he had to pay some attention to his district, rather than
sitting up in Washington and letting his campaign be run. And the
Republicans are making Democrats aware of this also. You can't sit back
now and expect that primary to make you tantamount to election. You have
to work at it. The black vote is doing the same thing.
JACK BASS:
Outside the urban areas in North Carolina, then political education still
remains a major problem facing blacks.
H. M. MICHAUX:
I would say yes, very definitely.
JACK BASS:
Would this be a major goal of a statewide black political
organization?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Yes it would. It would be a primary goal.
JACK BASS:
What was the effect when Reginald Hawkins ran for governor? Did that have
an effect in jumping up registration?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't think so.
JACK BASS:
Why would it be different if Howard Lee ran for lieutenant governor?
H. M. MICHAUX:
Because I think Howard is more creditable than I think
Page 36
Reggie was. As a candidate. Well, I don't want to say creditable. Let
me say more viable as a candidate than Reggie was.
JACK BASS:
So you think that he would be perceived as somebody who just might be
able to win.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Right. Blacks would not be voting simply because he's black but because
not only is he black but he's a qualified candidate and has a
possibility of winning.
JACK BASS:
And one of the objectives of such a campaign would be to increase
political awareness, particularly in the east.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Oh yes, very definitely. See, not only have you got to work . . . a black
statewide candidate has a double problem. He's got to work not only to
educate the black population, but he's got to work to educate the white
voter, too. This is why you can't just jump out and run. You've got to
build up your credibility, your viability, in both communities. And the
only way you can do it is to spend a little time at the grassroots
level. Like Howard has done. Howard has paid his dues. He's worked
actively with the party throughout the state. He's recognized in the
party not only as a black leader but as a party leader. This helps him
to build up his viability.
JACK BASS:
The long range effect of that, if it ends up working out, would be also
to strengthen a Democratic opponent for the U.S. Senate in 1978.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Very definitely.
JACK BASS:
Who is generally perceived at the moment as the leading
Page 37
candidate for that race?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I have no idea at all. I don't think there are any leading candidates
right now. It's way to early to even . . .
JACK BASS:
If Rich Preyer, for example, jumps into that race, would he get
widespread support or not?
H. M. MICHAUX:
I don't think so. I don't think Rich could draw the east. I think we're
going to have to go back to sectionalism on that. I think we're going to
have to come out of the west. I'd much rather see a person come from the
west, personally.
JACK BASS:
Would Preyer fit that role?
H. M. MICHAUX:
No, he's from the piedmont. I'd like to see a westerner, five points on
the scale, Democrat come out of there.
JACK BASS:
So someone like Edmisten would be a possibility.
H. M. MICHAUX:
Rufus would be a possibility. He could be a very good possibility.
JACK BASS:
He would also have the age advantage over someone like Preyer.
H. M. MICHAUX:
He would have the age advantage and he would have the experience
advantage, really. Well, I don't know. Ten years on Sam Ervin's staff
gave him some modicum of experience. Rufus may be a good candidate. I
just think it's just too early to tell.