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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview A-0331-1, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
This is the first interview in a three-part series with Herman Talmadge, who served as governor of Georgia from 1948 to 1955 before going to the United States Senate from 1957 until 1981. The son of Governor Eugene Talmadge, Herman Talmadge discusses his early career in politics and his perception of southern politics during the mid-twentieth century. Talmadge begins the interview by reflecting on his first awareness of political issues when he helped to campaign for his father during the mid-1920s. In discussing his father's political career (Eugene Talmadge first served as the Commissioner of Agriculture in Georgia before serving as governor from 1933 to 1937 and again from 1941 to 1943), Talmadge places his father within the changing social and political landscape of Georgia. Following his father's unexpected death in December 1946 just after his reelection to the governorship that same year, the younger Talmadge was elected by the legislature to fill his father's seat. His election, however, was highly contested and soon became a notorious scandal dubbed "the three governors controversy" (referred to here by Talmadge as the "two governors row"). Although he firmly believed that he had been rightfully placed in office by the General Assembly, Talmadge was forced out of office by a Georgia Supreme Court ruling before returning in 1948, after being elected in his own right. In discussing that initial gubernatorial campaign, as well as his subsequent campaigns, Talmadge emphasizes the importance of his father's legacy in his own political career, the growing importance of race in southern politics, his thoughts on his political rivals and colleagues, and his relationship with the press. Talmadge also discusses his decision to run for the United States Senate and his growing prominence in national politics during the 1960s and 1970s.
In this interview, the first in a three-part series, Herman Talmadge discusses his political career as governor of Georgia and his decision to run for the United States Senate.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is Jack Nelson in Washington, D.C. on July 15, 1975, interviewing Senator Herman Talmadge for the Southern Oral History Program. We are now at Senator Talmadge's apartment on New Mexico Avenue at 6:00 a.m. and I think that Senator Talmadge has just come back . . . have you already been on the job?
I got up at 2:40 and the first thing that I did was to have breakfast, I read a little more than an hour from Patton's papers here, 1945, and at 4:20, I went out and ran and walked about two and a half miles and came back and cooled off and after about forty-five minutes and went in to take a shower and was just getting dressed as you rang the doorbell at six.
Well, 2:40 is about an hour earlier than you usually get up?
Yes, about an hour earlier than I normally get up.
Does that just mean that you went to bed earlier or what?
I went to bed about 8:30, I woke up earlier and couldn't go back to sleep.
I think that you've told me before that you go to bed with the chickens and get up with the chickens.
I beat them up.
Yes, beat them up.
Senator, would you go back to when you really first became aware of politics and so forth. I know that you were thirteen years old, I believe, in 1927 when your father, Eugene Talmadge, was first elected Secretary of Agriculture.
Yes, he was elected Commissioner of Agriculture in 1926.
I meant Commissioner.
Prior to that time, he had run for local office three times and was defeated. He ran for the legislature, the House of Representatives twice and the State Senate once. My father was somewhat of a maverick and they had a courthouse political machine in Telfair County and they knew that my father wouldn't take orders and they didn't want him to go to the legislature and he didn't go. However, when he ran for statewide office, they got behind him and supported him and supported him loyally until his death, in all of his races thereafter.
When were you first really caught up in his political career? Even in his earlier races when he lost?
Of course, I knew little about them at that time, I was quite young. The first time, I guess that I was really reasonably active in his political career was the first race for Commissioner of Agriculture in 1926. At that time, I was twelve years old, about thirteen about the time that he was elected and I remember his famous debate with J.J. Brown in McRae, Georgia, I attended that. We had sent some wagon loads of water melons up there to help feed the crowds. After the debate was over, my father and Mr. Brown were shaking hands and he introduced Mr. Brown to me and I went and got him the biggest watermelon out of the pile and he said, "Give it to my chauffer over there and have him put it in the car."
Can you tell us something about the debate?
Well, of course, J.J. Brown at that time was one of the most powerful
political factors in the state. He had a vast organization of employees
that did little but politic and they were selected from influential
families and because of their political awareness. They were supposed to
be an unbeatable machine. My father was an unknown country lawyer and
farmer there that lived five miles south of McRae, Georgia. No one
took
Were you active in his later campaigns as well?
Yes. About the time that he ran for governor, in 1932, I had just
finished my freshman year at the University of Georgia and one of my
duties was to advertise his speeches. In those days, you would go to all
the little towns around there and nail up placards, paste signs on trees
and on the placards in courthouses and things of that nature. I remember
one time that I was advertising a speech that he was to make at
Cedartown, Georgia. I went in the meat market. In those days, the meat
markets had sawdust on the ground and had a big round trunk of a tree
there that they used as a table to cut up the meat when the housewives
would come in to buy it. I handed this butcher a circular there
announcing my father's speech and he said, "I wouldn't vote for that
goddamned son of a bitch for nothing." I didn't know whether to hit him
or run or what to do. I learned then that all you can do is turn the
other cheek. So, I walked on out and kept on delivering circulars. Then,
thereafter, in 1934 when he was seeking reelection as governor, I made
my first political speech. I had a friend in college named Aubrey Evans
from Sycamore, Georgia, and he decided to have a big Talmadge rally down
in Turner County, near Sycamore. We had an old cotton warehouse
This was sort of heady stuff.
Yes, it was heady stuff. That was my first political speech.
Incidentally, Turner County is the county where I afterwards met my wife, Betty, and I must say that my father carried the county overwhelmingly but I don't think that any of it was attributable to my speech. At that time, he carried every county in the state except Fulton, DeKalb and Clarke.
Did he ever carry Fulton and DeKalb?
Yes. He never did carry DeKalb for governor. He carried Fulton in one of his races for governor and strangely enough, he was always very strong in Clarke County until he and Abit Nix ran against each other for governor in 1932. My father had a good many relatives in Clarke County named Talmadge. They were widely respected students, he had been a student there and was known by a good many of the families. My grandfather had been a student there and he was known to a good many of the families. So, he was very popular until he defeated Mr. Nix, who was Clarke County's favorite son. Thereafter, my father never carried Clarke County as long as he lived. I didn't carry it in my first two races for governor, but Abit Nix got to be my friend and he introduced me when I ran for the United States Senate and I carried Clarke County that time and I have carried it every race that I have made since.
Didn't your father used to have . . . I can remember some of the quotes attributed to him about never wanting to carry a county that had streetcars in it?
You know, it's strange how thing alleged to have been said become facts
and become history. Now, here is what happened. The first
It didn't sound like a statement that any politician would make.
No politician would ever make a statement like that. As a matter of fact, he carried many counties where streetcars ran. He carried Richmond County most of the time. He carried Chatham County most of the time and he carried Muscogee County most of the time. Streetcars ran in all those counties.
What about your father, Senator Talmadge, can you describe what you think his impact on the state was?
Before I get into that, let me give you another myth that was alleged to have been a statement of my father's and that was not a fact. He has repeatedly been quoted as having said that "The farmer has only three friends: God Almighty, Sears Roebuck and Gene Talmadge." He never made that statement. Some individual, in introducing him to an audience once, made that statement and it was attributed to my father. Well, getting back to my father as an individual . . .
Were there other myths? I'm sure that there were.
Oh yes, many of them, but I don't recall any at the moment except those
two. I've read them both a thousand times and I don't know how things
can get so . . . the press will pick it up once or twice, you know and
then some fellow will write an article about it and he will quote from
the
I wouldn't doubt that there are a few about you like that.
Oh, I'm certain of it. I remember one about me. I am alleged to have
written the then Attorney General Eugene Cook whether or not, after I
had served an unexpired term as governor, whether I could seek a full
term as governor. I was alleged to have ended it up by adding another
paragraph that "If I am ineligible to run for governor, am I eligible to
run for Attorney General?"
I remember that. You never wrote that? It was a good story.
It was a good story.
And he was quite slim, too, as I remember.
Yes. In those days, when he ran for Commissioner of Agriculture, 1926, he was about thirty-nine years old and at that time, he weighed about 125 pounds.
How about later, though?
Yes, later on, he gained a good bit of weight. I think that the heaviest
that he ever was was about 180 pounds, probably in his second or third
term as governor of Georgia. Then shortly before he died, as a matter of
fact, I remember the incident very well . . . I had returned from my
first tour in the South Pacific, about twenty-two and a half months in
the South Pacific. I had twenty days leave and I spent that time with my
family at McRae, Georgia and my wife's family at Ashburn, Georgia. We
had a young son that I never saw until he was fourteen and a half months
old and I spent most of that time getting acquainted with him. But then
my father was hale and vigorous. That was in 1943, about June, I guess.
Then the next time that I saw him, my next tour of duty was as executive
officer of a preliminary detail for an attack transport. Our ship was
commissioned
Can you go back to something that you were mentioning to me before we
began the interview, about the book that was written on your father as a
"wild man from Sugar Creek." You said that you thought, I
That's right. First let me get back to Williams' Huey
Long. I thought that it was one of the greatest biographies that I
ever read and when I picked it up, I could barely put it down. I had
read many books on long and knew him personally, every article that I
could lay my hands on. He was a very colorful individual. He was one of
my heroes when I was in college and I subscribed to The
American Progress, which was his political newspaper, to read
about him. Williams had done oral interviews for a period of ten years
to write the biography of Long. Almost every sentence had a footnote
giving the source. He had sought out all of Long's contemporaries, his
friends and foes and neutral people and did a thorough, I thought, well
rounded biography of Long, projecting the good and the bad. Before
Anderson's Book was published, he sent me some proofs and I read it and
he didn't get the Eugene Talmadge that I knew. The first instance,
whereas Williams had probably interviewed three thousand people, or
approximately that, I think that Anderson had interviewed less than a
hundred and some of his sources that he quoted were anonymous, which
Williams never did. A good many inaccuracies were in the book and he
didn't get the Eugene Talmadge that I knew. He did get color, the flavor
of my father, but that was about all.
What do you think was missing from it?
If people tried to look back now and see what Eugene Talmadge, what impact he had on the state and on politics generally in this country, what do you think . . .
Well, he really dominated the politics of Georgia from 1926 until he died
in 1946. In fact, he dominated it for a time after his death. I would
never have been elected governor of Georgia by the legislature or by the
people had I not been Eugene Talmadge's son. My father had a following
of about a third of the people who thought that he could do no wrong.
There was about another third of the people in the state that thought he
could do no right. Then, there was about another third that would
support him when they thought he was right and oppose him when they
thought he was wrong. That was the reason that he could have so many ups
and downs in his political career. I don't know of anyone in the history
of Georgia that could have been defeated for the Senate by Russell,
defeated for the Senate by George and then come back and be elected
governor in 1940 and then have been defeated by Arnall in 1942 and then
come back and be elected governor again in 1946. Had he not had that
solid support that was with him and then when the issues would change
somewhat in my father's favor and the third of the people that were
neither strong Talmadge people nor strong anti-Talmadge people would
tend to support my father, he would win. When they would leave him, he
would lose. So, he dominated the politics of the state for more than
twenty years, probably to a greater degree than any other man in the
history of the state unless it was Tom Watson. Tom Watson made and
unmade governors for a period of about ten or fifteen years and then was
elected to the United States Senate in 1920 and died in office in the
Senate in 1922. Both of them had strong followings that would do most
anything that they said.
Of course, some of the Georgia political leaders have never really tried that. I think that you usually stayed away from other people's politics as a general rule.
That's right.
Although I do think that you did help Senator Nunn.
Yes, I helped Senator Nunn and I helped Marvin Griffin. I campaigned openly for Senator Nunn. I did not campaign openly for Marvin Griffin. I did pass the word that he was the most likely choice that could win. Fred Hand was a close friend of mine and if I could have appointed the governor, I think that I would have selected Fred Hand in preference to Marvin Griffin. But Fred was a rather cold and aloof sort of fellow that didn't take on with the voters.
Going back to your father's career, what about the people in Georgia who were his leading political allies? Did he have any over a period of years?
Yes, but very few of them, however, were politicians Politicians, as a
rule, didn't support my father. Those were the days of the courthouse
rings and the county unit systems and the politicians wanted governors,
when they had to do something in their county, they could be a deputy
governor of their particular county. In other words, a strong man
politically in Tailferr County for a long time was Zack Cravey and then
Henry Williams. And we had other strong men like that in counties,
both
What about the earlier part of his career? Even then he didn't really have political alliances with public figures?
No, particularly in his early campaigns. When he ran against Brown, I imagine that Brown had practically every political leader in the state supporting him because they first thought that he was invincible. He had ties to most of the county officials, through employees, relatives, friends, things of that nature. When my father ran for governor in 1932, there were very few local political leaders that were supporting him because he was always an independent minded man and a maverick. Politicians like to support candidates that they can control, at least when it comes to doing what they want done in their individual counties. Now, in 1934, when my father was seeking reelection as governor, it was a foregone conclusion that he was going to be reelected, it was just a question of degree. Politicians like winners, he probably had most of the county officers with him at that time. In 1936, when he was running against Senator Russell, he jumped on Roosevelt, alienated a lot of people and made a lot of them mad and he had very few politicians with him at that time. The same thing was true when he opposed Senator George. In 1940, he was making somewhat of a comeback, Governor Rivers had fouled things up to a certain degree. The state was heavily in debt and couldn't pay the state employees, couldn't pay the school teachers and then a good many politicians gravitated to my father in the 1940 campaign. Then in 1942, I was off in the Pacific in the Navy at that time. Most of the politicians had left him as a result of his alienation of the newspapers and many political leaders with the Cocking Affair and the discrediting of the University of Georgia . . .
The Cocking Affair. That was . . .
That was a professor over at the University of Georgia that he fired.
Oh, yes.
Can you go back to the book, The Wild Man From Sugar
Creek, where did he get the title?
As the result of a magazine article. They wrote many magazine articles about my father in his days as governor in '33 to '37.
Was this partly as a result of his being such a colorful political character?
Yes, that and everything else and the fact that he was the only
Democratic governor in the United States that didn't like the New Deal
and he had had his wars with Roosevelt and Gollier's
Magazine or some such news magazine as that would send their writer down
to do a story on him. I've forgotten which magazine that "wild man from
Sugar Creek" first appeared. Probably Collier's.
I suppose that it also had to do with the fact that he was a very outspoken segregationist and in those times . . .
Well, as a matter of fact, everyone was a segregationist at that time in the South. I don't think that segregation ever got to be an issue in any of his campaigns . . .
Well, it was only an issue in the North, right?
Yes.
It was an issue in the North and . . .
And it wasn't much of an issue then. I don't think that segregation ever
got to be an issue in any of his campaigns until his campaign for
reelection as governor in 1942. Some people over at the University of
Georgia got Dr. Cocking, who was the Dean of the College of Education,
as I recall, at the University at the time, with promoting integration
in thecause celebre, one of the
biggest in the state and resulted in my father being defeated for
reelection for governor in '42. But even in those days . . .
There's no question in your mind that that was the reason for his being defeated?
None whatever. He would have been overwhelmingly reelected except for that issue.
Did he ever regret having done that?
Well, I knew that it was a tragic political mistake and I tried to disuade him and so did my mother, but once that my father made up his mind, he was the most stubborn independent minded man that I ever knew in my life. If he thought that the whole world was against him and he thought that he was right, he would head right down the same path.
Well, did he realize at that time that it would be a political liability to do that?
I don't know whether he did or not. Certainly he did subsequently.
You certainly told him, though.
Yes, I did.
And so did your mother?
Yes.
Your mother is Miss Mitt?
Yes, she is still living. She's ninety-five years of age and her mind is still sharp, she's still active physically and she works everyday.
She advises you politically?
Oh yes, sure. It's good advice, too.
I'm sure it is. Can you say something about her part in your father's campaigns?
Well, primarily in the early days, she stayed home and ran the farm when my father was Commissioner of Agriculture. When she was governor, she had taken over the operation of the farms down in Tellfair Counties and continued that until he left as Commissioner of Agriculture. Then subsequently, my father acquired some farms and he didn't do much row croping on his, he would raise beef cattle primarily and my mother would run her farms and my father would run his. She would travel around with him for his speeches. When he served as governor, she moved to the executive mansion and of course, acted as his hostess and wife there. But when he was not governor, she would be down at the farm in McRae, looking after the farms and my father would practice law in Atlanta and commute back to McRae on weekends. That was the usual routine.
Was she really active politically other than . . .
Oh yes, she was very active and a very good politician.
She went on the stump with your father?
She wouldn't make speeches, but she would sit on the platform with him.
My mother was a Thurmond, a cousin of Strom Thurmond, about a second
cousin, I believe. She moved from South Carolina to Long Pond, a
Now, you have always been very close to your mother.
Yes.
Can you say anything about her impact on your own career? Did she encourage you in politics early in the game or did she see how rough and tumble it was and maybe wanted to dissuade you from it?
Well, as a matter of fact, when I was in grammar school or grade school,
or high school, and we would study about the history of this country and
the U.S. Senate and the Haney and Webster and Calhoun debates and the
part that the Senate played in our government, my only early political
ambition was to be a U.S. Senator. Strangely enough, my first ambition,
I think, was to be a preacher. I would read these Biblical stories about
Daniel in the lion's den and things of that nature. I first thought that
I wanted to be a preacher and then I got further advanced and reading
about the Senate and thought that if I ever got into politics, I wanted
to be a United States Senator. Then, after I got out of law school and
started practicing, about everytime that I would get my practice going
to where I could make a living,
Now, by this time, you had already seen this change in his health?
Yes. I didn't realize it was as serious as it was and no one else did. I managed his campaign in 1946 and he was elected and died in December just before he was supposed to take office for the fourth term as governor in 1947.
How quickly did his health seem to deteriorate?
Well, he campaigned more vigorously and harder in that '46 campaign than any campaign in his life time. I saw that it was necessary, the Negroes were voting in large numbers for the first time in the history of the state. The white primary had been outlawed and they were supporting Mr. Carmichael unanimously. All the press was supporting Mr. Carmichael . . .
That's James Carmichael.
James V. Carmichael, he's dead now, from Marrieta, Georgia, a very fine
man. The newspapers were almost unanimously opposed to my father. The
only exception in the daily papers, I believe, was the Savannah Press, they were supporting my father and a few little
weeklies were supporting my father, but 95% of all the press in Georgia
was supporting Mr. Carmichael. The Negroes in a solid bloc were
supporting Mr. Carmichael.
What percentage of the electorate would they have been at that time?
Oh, probably 20%.
They would have been 20% of the registered voters?
Yes.
Which was relatively high in the Deep South?
Oh, very high, yes. And all of the state machinery was
Now, at that time, Roy Harris was publishing the Augusta Courier and . . .
He had started publishing his little Augusta Courier
and he was at that time, speaker of the Georgia House of Representatives
and had been quite a very effective political leader in his own right,
particularly in managing his own campaigns. He had been primarily
involved in managing all the anti-Talmadge campaigns. He had managed Ed
Rivers' campaigns for governor and he had managed Ellis Arnall's
campaigns for governor and he was identified as a campaign manager for
the other side and of course, I was the campaign manager for my father.
So, our knowledge pooled together was highly effective in our
campaign.
How did you happen to lure him over?
He got sore with Ellis Arnold about some of his views, segregation and other things.
Was it after Ellis had written the book, The Shore Dimly
Seen?
Yes. And also when Ellis had made all these attacks on the state and Roy,
I think, wanted to be governor and Ellis had tried to amend the
constitution so that he could be governor again and Roy stopped
I was going to say, that's an awfully large state.
It was a very heavy speaking schedule, a man killer and he carried it through. There were very few speaking engagements that he missed.
Did he fly at all?
No, in those days, he went by automobile. I pinch hit for him a few times on some of his speeches and when he had a cold, something of that nature. Then, when the campaign was over, he was quite restless. He made a trip to Mexico and made a trip out to Yellowstone Park and then he made a trip, I believe, down to Jacksonville Beach. I got a call from Jacksonville Beach that he had had a hemorrhage down there. It was shortly before the Democratic convention where he was supposed to accept the nomination as governor. I got a plane there, had to fly through Augusta, Georgia. From Atlanta to Augusta and from Augusta to Savannah and from Savannah on down to Jacksonville. I got there and got to the hospital, I had no idea that it was going to be serious, but we had the Democratic convention coming up in about two days . . .
And this would have been in what month?
I guess October, 1946. So, the doctor told me that he didn't think that
it was anything serious at all and that he had had a hemorrhage and
losing blood from a vein and said that he was going to have to stay in
the hospital for a few days, however. So, I knew that he couldn't be
present for the Democratic convention. So, I went back to the hotel
and
In other words, there was no feeling then that he had cirrhosis of the liver?
They thought that he did have cirrhosis of the liver but they didn't realize that it was as serious as it was.
Meanwhile, prior to the November election, one of my friends who was a county school superintendent in Jasper County . . . he's dead now, I afterwards made him U.S. Marshal after I came to the Senate . . . called my attention to a provision in the Georgia constitution at the time, you know originally, the General Assembly elected all public officers and the same thing was true in many other states. then gradually, that power was delegated to the people. But there was an old provision that had come down from the early constitution that in the event of a failure of election, the General Assembly of Georgia would proceed to elect the governor of Georgia from those then in line from the next highest number of votes. So, I had some lawyers look into the doggoned thing and we decided that if something happened to my daddy, that the General Assembly of Georgia had to elect the governor . . .
Do you recall the lawyers that you checked with?
Oh, Buck Murphy and Sam Hewlitt and W. S. Mann and a good
And that was because the legislature would have to elect from the people who got votes?
That's right, because that constitutional provision had been called to my
attention by a county school supertindent in Jasper County. So, I got
several hundred votes in Tellfair County and I think that I got a few
hundred in Worth County and a few hundred in Macon County and a
scattering number of other counties. And when we had that famous two
governor row, it finally wound up that Jimmy Carmichael had four or five
hundred write in votes and I had about a hundred more write in votes
than he had. So, that's when we had that famous Two Governor Row down
there in 1947, when the General Assembly elected me governor by a vote
of about two to one. The networks stayed on the air all night, I was
inaugurated about one thirty or two in the morning, made an
extemperaneous speech to the General Assembly of Georgia that was
broadcast all over the United States . . .
Did you fully expect to remain as governor or . . .
Yes, I thought that I would. In those days, I was pretty naive. I thought
that judges, regardless of their political inclinations, would uphold
the law as they saw it. I had been taught to respect the courts, I
had
How many members were in the Home Guard?
I don't remember now. But everyone was wondering when the National Guard and the Home Guard were going to start shooting each other. In any event, after Governor Arnall refused to surrender the office, I gave orders to the National Guard to see that Governor Arnall was escorted all the way to Newnan, Georgia and no harm befell him and then when they did that, to come back to the capitol and change locks on the capitol door, the governor's office. I would be in early the next moring and take possession of the governor's office, which I did.
I think that he showed up the next morning, didn't he?
He showed up . . .
It was Bill Benton wasn't it, that came to the door and . . .
I had been in the office, I guess, for about an hour and Governor Arnall
came in demanding his office. Benton said, "If you want to see the
governor, you will have to sit down and wait your turn like everybody
else."
So, he didn't come in, then did he?
No, he stormed out, took him a seat under the rotunda of the state
capitol and he stayed there for a day or two and finally one of my
friends in the state Senate, Jimmy Dykes, got one of those huge
firecrackers about six inches long and he got up on the floor above
Governor Arnall there and lit that firecracker and dropped it right
behind Governor Arnall's desk and it it went off, ca-whoom! I think that
Arnall thought that somebody was throwing a bomb at him or shooting him
or something.
Meanwhile, I ran the governor's office there for sixty-seven days, we had . . .
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
. . . there were two of the bonified, two of them in Fulton County
there, the Atlanta papers, particularly the Journal,
was giving me the devil night and day every issue. Judge Hendrix ruled
in my favor. Judge Bond Almand ruled in my favor, both fine judges. Bond
Almand was probably the ablest judge Georgia has had in my lifetime.
Then the opposition was getting desperate that I had won two cases in a
row. Under Georgia law, when you have a forfiture of a bond, the suit
must be filed in the name of the governor of Georgia. So, they trumped
them up a bond forfiture in Floyd County before Judge Claude Porter's
court. He had been a violent anti-Talmadge man, had made stump speeches
right and left. He ruled in behalf of M.E. Thompson. So, the three cases
went to the state Supreme Court and the state Supreme Court ruled
against me by a vote of five to two and when they ruled against me, I
knew that I couldn't operate the state and face the court decision. So,
I
In your last campaigns, right? Let me ask you, I think that you believe to this day that the court was wrong.
I know that they were. I've got proof of it.
You think that the Lester Maddox case is . . .
The Lester Maddox case was identical to my own. They had had a failure of election and the General Assembly elected Lester Maddox and the state Supreme Court ruled in favor of Lester Maddox by two and the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in favor of Lester Maddox five to four. So, twenty years later, I was vindicated by two courts, the U.S. Supreme Court and the state Supreme Court, but eighteen months later, I was vindicated by the people, which was the most important.
Just briefly, Senator, can you say what the Lester Maddox case was. This was where Lester Maddox . . .
That was when we had a failure of election. You recall that there was a runover race between Lester Maddox and Ellis Arnall and Ellis Arnall and . . .
Well, Lester Maddox got the nomination?
Yes. Lester Maddox got the nomination. And then there was a race between Bo Callaway and Lester Maddox.
That was the Republican nominee?
That's right. Bo Callaway was the Republican nominee and Lester Maddox was the Democratic nominee and there were a lot of people unhappy about both of them. They got a write in campaign for former Governor Ellis Arnall and he received, as I recall, about thirty odd thousand votes.
52,000, something like that.
And Callaway had several hundred more votes, maybe 1500 or 2,000 more votes than Maddox. No one had a majority. So, you had a failure of election and the General Assembly had to elect the governor and the General Assembly was about 90% Democratic, so they elected Lester Maddox.
And they had to elect it out of the two top vote getters in the general election, which was identical to your case.
Yes.
Did the question ever come up in your case of vote fraud in Telfair County in connection with some of the write in votes?
There was a lot of publicity about it, but no one . . .
It didn't become part of the litigation, however? That was never raised?
No.
George Goodwin won a Pulitizer Prize for the Atlanta Journal on . . .
Yes, Stanley Brooks, who was an old desk mate of mine down in Telfair
County, was a close friend of mine and he was a very strong political
leader in Helena, Georgia. He could have gotten me 90% of the votes down
there any way that he wanted to, but I guess that he wanted to do it the
simple way so he voted them in alphabetical order.
And it turned out, I think, that some of the people
Might have been.
Yes, I think that they called it "tombstone voting" or something. In any event, that is the story behind that. Was there any continuing of rancor between you and Ellis Arnall after you took office?
Not really. Actually, when I ran for the Senate, now Ellis didn't support me for reelection as governor. In fact, he and Ed Rivers had managed M.E. Thompson's campaign to the unexpired term and I had defeated him and they both supported M.E. when he ran against me again in 1950. But when I ran for the Senate, I think that the first contribution that I got was from Ellis Arnall. So, almost all my political opponents at one time or the other, almost without exception, have afterwards supported me.
Now, you were in office as the interim governor while the case was being decided for what? Something like sixty-three days?
Sixty-seven, as I recall.
Well, how did the state operate?
Well, the bankers had agreed to accept certification of B.E. Thrasher on the vouchers there . . .
The state auditor.
Yes, Thrasher countersigned them and they paid the warrants.
Now, as I remember, didn't Ben Fortson withhold the governor's seal or something?
Well, that really was just an act, because we had no necessity for the seal. The seal would have only been required on official documents like appointments of United States Senators and things like that.
The state treasurer, George Hamilton . . .
He is alleged to have sat on the seal during all that time.
Sat on it, yes.
But I had no necessity for the seal during that sixty-seven days. I was interested in getting litigation out of the way, the legislature was in session, the state was operating, everybody was being paid . . .
Didn't George Hamilton, the state treasurer, try to prevent some of the payments or something? As I remember, he . . .
No. He paid them, as I recall.
But he was in the other . . .
Oh, he was in the other camp. But the bankers were accepting Thrasher's warrants and that took care of it.
So, you were in sixty-seven days and Ellis Arnall . . . well, M.E. Thompson came in after that.
Actually, the court held that Arnall would hold over and then Ellis resigned and Thompson took over as acting governor.
So then you went back to practice law?
Well, I didn't have much time to practice law, I was busy appealing my case to the court of last resort. I was campaigning.
You continued the campaign then?
Yes. I was all over the state. I would leave every Monday morning and come back Saturday afternoon. That was the routine until the election was over.
Right. Now, was your mother campaigning with you at that time?
Not until I formally and officially announced and then
Did George Stewart hold a position at that time?
No, George Stewart at that time, I believe, was assistant secretary of the Democratic party of Georgia. Iris Blitch was the secretary. I had designated her at my father's convention. And afterwards, I became governor and George Stewart became secretary of the Senate. And I believe also secretary of the party when Iris Blitch came to Congress.
When did the race issue first come up, Senator, in your own political campaigns and how did it come up? Do you recall?
Actually, I don't know that it came up until the Supreme Court's decision of 1954 and I had already served six years as governor of Georgia at that time. We didn't have much of a race issue. We did have the Democratic white primary issue. My father had pledged to restore the Democratic white primary and so did I. So, you could say that the race issue came up then.
Yeah, that was considered a part of it at that time. You had pledged to restore it, but you were never able to . . .
Well, we repealed the election laws, but the Supreme Court then said that that still wasn't sufficient. They were determined that they were going to outlaw the white primary regardless.
Yes. Now one of the quotes that I think was attributed to you
I expect that I did, yes.
And I have also seen you quoted more recently in the magazine articles that you could look back, as maybe anybody could, on things that you maybe wished you hadn't said or wish you hadn't done, but in the context of the time, you did them.
Yes. You become older and wiser. Sometimes you said things different and not at all. It is about time that I've got to go to the office. We have been at it about an hour.
Right. That's good. We'll stop.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Senator, I did read The Wild Man From Sugar Creek,
which really just came out this year. I didn't realize that it was that
new and you had told me before we began the interview here something
about the witnesses that Mr. Anderson used. I wonder if you could just
say something else about that.
His sources of information, as you saw from reading the book, were somewhat limited. Where he was completely wide of the mark, he quoted anonymous sources. Most of the witnesses that he quoted that were hostile to my father were well educated and highly articulate. Most of the witnesses that he quoted that were favorable to my father were limited in education and some of them were near morons.
I know that you thought very highly of your father. He had a
I never heard him say that. My father was extremely stubborn. Once he made up his mind on an issue, it was pretty well set and concrete. No one could deter him if he firmly made up his mind and was commited to a position.
Anderson also mentioned something about your days at the University of Georgia. Did you get involved in politics there?
Yes. I was commander of my fraternity, which is the equivalent of being president of it. I was also president of the interfraternity council. Anderson quoted Mr. John Monihan in the book that her husband had to go over to the university several times and get me out of scrapes. That was completely untrue.
This was another case then of . . .
Pure fabrication. In its entirety.
Another thing that I was very interested in was when you told me earlier that Huey Long was one of the persons that you most admired in life.
I was fascinated by Huey Long's color, his dynamic speaking style, his
total supremacy in the state of Louisiana. He was the only man, I think,
in the history of the country that ever completely took charge of the
judicial, legislative and executive branch of government within his
state. I used to subscribe to his newspaper, The American
Progress. He had one of the quickest minds that I ever saw. I
would read some of the debates in the Senate and sometimes he would take
on the entire Senate singlehandedly and I never saw him bested.
On the other hand, probably some of his political philosophy
His political philosophy at that time even at that time, was alien to my own and as I got in politics and government myself, I don't buy his share the wealth theory and things of that nature.
Also, according to Anderson, I think that he quoted some speech or some comment that Huey Long had made to the press. He was supposed to have had some contempt for your father.
I saw that in Anderson's book. I don't know whether he ever said that or not. Huey in those days sometimes drank to excess. He might have made a derogatory remark while he was under the influence, but I doubt that he had contempt for my father. I thought that they were good friends.
You doubt that there was any enmity between then, then?
There wasn't any at all. My father didn't buy his political philosophy, although he did support his program to curtail cotton production until we got it out of surplus.
Another thing that I wanted to ask you about was Anderson's writing that your father had sent you to see President Roosevelt and promised that the Talmadges were burying the hatchet and so forth. That was untrue, too?
Yes.
You didn't go then?
No.
Now, another thing that he said concerning your father was that he admired Hitler and had read Hitler's book seven times.
I doubt that.
You and I talked about the Cocking affair some yesterday. What about the Pittman affair?
It was somewhat similar. I was off in the Navy at that time and there were some charges made against Dr. Pittman, who was at that time president of the College at Statesboro, Georgia and Dr. Pittman was removed along with Dr. Cocking.
You disagreed with your father, and I think that you told me this when we had the first interview, on a number of occasions. Your political advice to him, at least, was different on the Cocking affair. What about also your disagreeing with him on emphasizing the race issue in the '40s?
Actually, the race issue was never emphasized in any of his races to any great degree. It was a collateral issue in the Cocking affair and probably in the Pittman affair and indirectly was involved in his 1942 campaign for reelection at that time. Now, the race issue was directly involved in the 1946 campaign. Just prior to that campaign, the federal judiciary had outlawed the Democratic white primary that had been in existence in Georgia, I believe, since 1906 until 1946, for a period of forty years. And the principle issue in his 1946 campaign was an attempt to restore the Democratic white primary.
And you really did play and very important part in the '46 campaign.
Yes, I managed the campaign. I managed three of his campaigns, the campaign in 1938 against Senator George, where we lost. The campaign in 1940 for election of governor to a third term, we won and I managed his 1946 campaign, which we won.
Now Anderson apparently was quoting you, Senator, in his book when he said that you had written the platform and you told your father that and that now it was time for him to run.
That's right.
And that he told you that he thought you were carrying him a little too far with some liberal things. What were the planks that would have been too liberal?
I emphasize that I thought the state was ready to make progress, it was subsequent to World War II, and the state had pretty much stood still throughout the war. Of course, with a total dedication to the war effort. So, we emphasized progress in education and in roads, primarily, and I believe also in natural resources. I had returned from the Navy and I saw that my father was involved in running for governor again. So, along in the spring of the year, I've forgotten the exact time, April or May, I would think, I wrote a suggested platform and took it in to him and told him that if he was going to announce, I thought that we ought to issue that statement in the next Sunday's paper. He looked it over and looked up at me and said, "You are taking me pretty fast, aren't you, son?" I said, "You've got to go fast if you expect to win this one." He signed it and I delivered it to the newspapers, I believe, on Saturday for Sunday release. That's my recollection.
Another thing that I had asked you about just as we were ending the
session last week, that you were quoted as saying that times and
conditions change and "I am certain that I have said many things that I
wouldn't today and done many things that I wouldn't do today." Can you
look back over your career, Senator, and think of anything specifically
in the context of today
I'm sure that I made some harsh statements that I wouldn't make since I have become more mature. The times and conditions have changed. I can't recall any specific instance, but many statements that I've made I'm sure I would not make today.
I was noticing a piece, I don't know whether the New York Post wrote it or wehther it was Reese Cleghorn's piece, but
someone's piece about Curtis Atkinson, a black on your staff, being
maybe one of the first blacks on the staff of any Deep South Senator. Do
you know whether that is true or not?
I don't know, really. I suspect that it was among the earliest, if not the earliest, but I couldn't state that for a fact. Curtis has been on my staff now for approximately six years and he does an outstanding job. He is an able young man. He has two degrees from Columbia University, masters, I believe, and he was teaching in the public school system in Harelson County when he came on my staff. He has an unusual ability to get along extremely well with both whites and blacks and he serves as many white constituents of mine as he does blacks.
What is his job on the staff, Senator?
Oh, he is in the Atlanta office, a liason and handles problems of various communities that are seeking medical centers and school aid, just everything with federal relations. Housing problems, all areas.
Reese Cleghorn did do one piece on you which I think was in the Atlanta Magazine, if I'm not mistaken, in which he
said that you had achieved a personal coalition in your followings
between such disparate people as say, Dr. King and the Grand Dragon. He
was crediting you with an
I don't think that there is any doubt. Of course, as I stated in my
previous conversation with you, after my father died, because I was
Eugene Talmadge's son, I inherited the support of roughly one third of
the state. I inherited also roughly the opposition of one third of the
state. There was a middle ground of about a third that was neither pro
nor con. I got the majority of that vote when I was elected governor in
1948. I retained about that same majority when I was reelected in 1950.
when I came to the Senate in 1956, I think that at that time I had won
over the majority of my former enemies. I carried every county in the
state in that election and approximately 80% of the vote. Since that
time, I have never received less than 72% plus. Since I have been in the
Senate, I have received campaign funds and contributions from virtually
ever one of my former cheif political enemies. And since Governor
Arnall, as I recall, was my first contributor when I sought reelection
to the Senate in 1962. Last year, one of my contributors was former
governor, M.E. Thompson whom I had defeated three times, twice for
governor and once for the United States Senate. So, I think that I have
been extremely fortunate in holding the base that I inherited that was
my father's loyal supporters and building on that. I think now,
according to the polls that I see, that over 80% of the people in
Georgia think that I am doing a good job in the Senate. In fact, I had
some polls made in anticipation of my last race and the pollster stated
that that was the highest rating that he had ever made on any candidate
at any time for any public office. About 86% of the people of Georgia
gave
Now, you spend a good deal of time going back to Georgia.
Oh yes, I think that I make more speeches in my homes state than probably any member of the United States Senate. I average at least a hundred a year. For instance, we are taking a recess during the month-of August and I have thirteen engagements in the state during that period of time. I usually schedule all my addresses in Georgia either on weekends or known recess periods. I average getting about the state and making a hundred speeches a year and I think that is as many as any Senator makes in his home state. I don't accept many engagements outside the state, maybe half a dozen or a dozen a year. I have to turn down about 90% of all the invitations that I get within the state. I accept as many as my Senatorial duties permit. They are very diverse groups, all types and kinds in character, citizens within the state, business people, working people, black people, white people, college groups, high school groups and so on.
You must have had an awful lot of invitations that you had to turn down during the Watergate hearings and after the Watergate hearings. I imagine that still comes on.
Yes, during the Watergate hearings, my mail got up to 3500 letters a day. It averages at the present time 500 to 600 letters a day. Monday is the heaviest mail, it will run 800 to 1000 letters a day. I get invitations all the time that I have to turn down. I turned down one yesterday from Yale University.
Does the mail still come in on a heavy volume partially because of Watergate, I mean nationwide?
About 60% of my mail, I think, comes from Georgia and aboutTime Magazine, articles of that type. Most of them
were not very favorable and when I was on . . .
Also, I was going to say, Senator, you probably inherited some of your father's image nationwide as well as his strength in Georgia.
Yes. In fact, more nationwide than I did within Georgia because a lot of people in Georgia knew me personally. That was not true outside the state and when they watched me on Watergate and saw that I was fairminded and stuck to the subject and wasn't pompous and didn't try to pontificate and moralize, I think that it made a good impression. I was pleased that two nationally syndicated columnists rated me the highest mark during that hearing and Danny Inoye second. I concurred with that rating. We stuck to the subject and handled it like an investigation should. We asked questions that were pertinent and we didn't moralize and pontificate and get off inside shows and things of that nature.
I would like, later in the interview, go back to Watergate and maybe go into some detail on that.
I was going to ask you, though, you said one time when you were governor
that you could make a decision and execute it and that as a Senator, "I
can make a decision and talk about it." Would
Yes, there is only one governor of Georgia. Under the constitution and laws of Georgia, a vast power is vested in the governor. Most of the General Assembly of Georgia was friendly to me, supporters of mine elected by my supporters and they would go along with virtually any program that I suggested. Well, I could make a decision and pretty well assured that I could get it carried out and made into law and executed by either myself or my department heads. But in the United States Senate, you have 100 individuals. You have to reach a conscensus not only of the 100 individuals in the Senate, but you also have to have a conscensus of the majority of the 435 members of the house and in addition to that, it requires the President's signature. So, your authority, even if you are chairman of a committee and possess enormous power, it is somewhat limited.
You are saying that even if you are chairman of a committee, it is still a very frustrating experience sometimes to get any action, I suppose.
Well, I can give you an example. This year, we decided that the Farm Bill
needed revision. We had written it in 1973. Subsequent to that, we had
had the Arab Embargo, fertilizer had doubled and sometimes trebled.
Prices of herbicides and insecticides and pesticides had doubled or
quadrupled. Farm machinery and diesel fuel had gone up tremendously, so
we made an effort to raise the target prices and loan levels. It was
mostly my bill. We put it through the Senate by an overwhelming
majority, well over two to one and then we had to go to conference with
the House. The House had a much more modest bill than we had. In an
effort to get the President's signature, number one and number two,
failing to get the President's signature, hopefully to override the
President's veto, we scaled it back to
Let me ask you, earlier we talked about your father's elections. What about your own elections and then you administration as governor? Could you discuss just a little bit about how you happened to be elected the first time? You went into it in a little detail before, but not totally.
Well, of course, we went into the Two Governors Row. After my father
died, under what we thought were the provisions of the constitution, the
legislature elected me governor by a vote of about two to one. The
Supreme Court of the state voted five to two against me and as soon as
they did, I vacated the office and announced that I would carry my case
to the people. I got in my car with George Stewart and about eighteen
months, we traveled around the state doing preliminary work organizing
campaign committees within the various counties and I announced my
campaign in the spring of 1946. I opened it at Douglas, Georgia with a
barbeque and a huge crowd, I think that there were 15,000 or 20,000
people there. I made speeches all over the state and I was elected to
the unexpired term of my father in 1946. I carried 130 counties and Mr.
Thompson, who was then acting governor, carried twenty-nine. The popular
vote was much closer than that. I got a substantial majority of the
popular vote and an overwhelming majority of the county unit vote. Of
Let's talk about your reelection, though. This time, your opposition was . . .
M.E. Thompson.
M.E. Thompson again.
I believe that C.O. Baker from Athens also ran and . . .
But it was really a two man race?
It was really a two man race. As I recall, Baker got about ten thousand votes and Mr. Thompson and I got the rest of them. In that election, as I recall, I carried 122½ counties and Mr. Thompson carried the remainder. It was a little closer than my first election.
What were the main issues in that campaign?
Oh, it was primarily personalities. It was a rehash of the 1946 campaign, primarily.
Then, you were going to talk about the second administration and what you thought were the topics.
Well, my second administration, we revised the tax code of the state and
repealed lots of antiquated laws and put in a very broad based
Is this the beginning of the rural roads program?
Yes, that's right. And we also put in the best conservation program, forest resources, of any state in the Union. We jumped from the 46th position of the then 48 states to number one in a crash program of about eighteen months. We started Georgia on the road to progress at that time and those programs have been continued and improved by every subsequent governor and every subsequent legislature.
Do you look back during that time and think of something that you wish that you had done or hadn't done during that administration? I don't think that anybody ever dwells on what they might have done, but . . .
I couldn't say right off the top of my head, Jack, that I would have made any changes.
What about during that period, did you have any dealings as governor at that time with President Truman?
No.
Did you . . . what was your own evaluation of him?
Well, my evaluation since then has greatly improved on Truman. Like many of my contemporaries at that time, I didn't hold President Truman in any very high esteem. Since that time, I have revised my opinion of him. I think that history is going to be kind to President Truman. He was a man who could make a decision and stick by it and I think that he did what he thought was right. He didn't have a great deal of ability, but he had a good deal of common sense and he had that Missouri stubborness in him and he took responsibility for all of his acts and spoke frankly. I have come to admire him since then.
Were you involved much in national politics at all at the time that you were govenor?
No.
You stuck pretty well to . . .
I had more than I could handle in Georgia, really. I have never been ambitious on the national level.
Now, you told me earlier that ever since you were a kid, you had thought of being in the Senate, that you wanted to be a Senator. When did you first really cast an eye toward Senator George's seat?
I guess that it began with the Chicago convention in 1952. We were
running Senator Russell then for the presidency and I had appointed a
delegation with a very broad base to the convention, including all the
members of the United States Senate and Congress from Georgia and people
who were leaders in all walks of life in Georgia, not neccessarily my
own political followers. In fact, I suspect a third of the delegates at
that time were not political followers of mine. In Chicago at the
convention, Senator George
Did he withdraw before or after?
He withdrew about the time that my statement got to the press and I had
to send someone over and pick it up and kill the story after he
Let me ask you, did you ever discuss with Senator George again his conversation with you back at the convention?
I never did.
Did you ever discuss or the two of you discuss again the fact that you would be running or your interest in it?
No.
In other words, that was the last time?
That was the last time.
You know, this is just sort of a personal note, but I remember that I was
a reporter on the Atlanta Constitution at the time,
and I remember seeing you walk down Forsyth Street, not far from the
Journal-Constitution Building, in fact I hollered at you across the
street, you had two arm loads of groceries. I don't know where you had
gotten them, I guess they were groceries, two big sacks in your hands. I
was thinking how vigorous and young you were and I was thinking about
how old Senator George was and how decrepit he was. This was before he
withdrew and I think that most people just thought that he didn't stand
a chance.
He was seventy-nine at the time. I am delighted that he didn't run because Senator George was a great Senator. He was probably the most respected member of the Senate. He had served a long time with great distinction, as I recall, some thirty-four or thirty-five years. If he had run, it would have divided many families and personal loyalties in the state, you would have had fathers against sons and brothers against brothers. I think that I would have defeated him overwhelmingly. I think that I would have gotten some 65% of the vote, that I would have gotten it about two to one. It probably would have left him embittered to have been rejected by the electorate after such long and distinguished service. He was seventy-nine years of age at the time and he died about six months later and certainly, I think that I made the wise decision at the time and I think that Senator George made the wise decision.
What was Senator Russell's position, if any, at that time?
I don't think that he had any position, he was a close friend of both
Senator George and myself and I would think . . . he never discussed it
with me, but I would suspect that Senator Russell was personally
Suppose you had had the option of taking on Senator Russell at the time, that would have been a much more difficult race.
Yes, much more difficult. I think that it would have been close and could have gone either way.
What is your evaluation of Senator Russell?
I think that Senator Russell is one of the all time great Senators that the nation has had.
Do you think that had he not . . .
I'd also put Senator George in that category.
Do you think had Senator Russell not have been from a Deep South state, that he would have been elected?
Yes, I think that he would have been President of the United States. In fact, Harry Truman said in his book that if Russell had not been from a southern state, he probably would have been President and I think that's true.
Well, your father lost of course, against him, didn't he?
Yes. He ran against Senator Russell in 1936 and . . .
Were you involved in that campaign?
Yes, I made some speeches in that campaign. I was not the manager, but I made some speeches around over the state and performed any service that I thought would be useful.
Was your father's respect for Senator Russell considerable, too?
Yes, he had a high opinion of Senator Russell.
I was going to ask you about your feeling about another Georgian and maybe that has changed too, somewhat, I don't know. What about Dr. Martin Luther King?
I never knew Dr. King, I don't think that I ever met him personally, that I can recall. He came along at a time when the nation was ready for some change on racial issues. He was a very forceful and aggressive leader and a manificent orator. I never knew him personally. I know his daddy well.
And his daddy, of course, is still living.
His daddy is retiring and they are holding a dinner honoring him, I believe the first day of August or there abouts, at the Mariott Motel. I have been invited to attend. Senator Nunn and I are doing an hour show for Channel 17 in Atlanta that night and I wrote them that if the dinner was still in progress, I would drop by after Senator Nunn and I get through with our interview.
That's very good, August 1st.
I think it's August 1st.
What about any of the other black leaders in Georgia, Senator? Particularly those who have maybe had some influence as far as the vote among the blacks was concerned, A.T. Walden in Atlanta or any of the others.
Walden was an old friend of mine and I admired Walden greatly. I first
got to know him right after I was admitted to the bar in 1936. I was
appointed by Judge Hugh Dorsey to defend a young black man who had cut a
young white man's throat there on Marietta Street in Atlanta and
This was when, again?
1936. We tried that case together before . . . I've forgotten the judge, but we tried that case and we got him a sentence, I believe, of ten years for manslaughter, which we thought was quite an accomplishment at the time. Walden and I remained friends thereafter. He didn't support me politically, in fact, I dressed him down a few times in some of my campaign speeches in '46. One time when I was governor, he called me and stated that he had to go down to Miller County to defend a black involved in a murder case and he was apprehensive about his life and asked if I would give him protection and I said that I certainly would, "I'll have a state patrol car to take you down there," and I did.
Well now, did you continue any sort of a relationship with Walden thereafter?
Yes.
Did he support you for the Senate?
I believe he died maybe about the time that I came to the Senate. I don't recall. But our friendship continued from '36 until his death and there is a woman judge now, Mrs. Herndon, who was Walden's law partner and she had been a supporter and friend of mine for many years.
This is what, municipal court judge?
Yes. A municipal judge of some kind down there in Atlanta.
What about any of the other black leaders that you can think of?
I think that virtually all of them now support me. You have black leaders in various sections of the state, I know a great many of them.
I've heard praise of you from people like Julian Bond.
Yes. Bond's relationship with mine is very cordial and pleasant. I've heard many generous remarks that he has made about me and I am grateful for it. My relationship has not been extremely close with Julian. I have been around him a few times, I've received letters from him a few times. He came by my office during the Watergate Committee hearings and stated that he would like to observe some of them and I took him up there and got him a seat.
What about Leroy Johnson?
Leroy Johnson has been a friend of mine for many years. I first knew Leroy when he was a bartender at the Elks Club in Atlanta, Georgia when I was a young lawyer around there and I presume that Leroy was getting his education at the time. He became a lawyer, the first state senator in the Deep South and my friendship with him has existed from that time to the present. He has called on me several times for modest favors and whenever I could, I have done so.
Has he supported you?
Yes.
What about any of the other black politicians who are in Georgia now, Ben Alexander?
I know Ben Alexander. I think he supports me.
Any of the others?
I think that virtually all of them did in my last two races. In my last race now, when Maynard Jackson ran against me, they were all in his corner at the time and that is understandable.
What is your relationship, if any, with Maynard Jackson?
Oh, it is very pleasant. He calls on me all the time for things for the city of Atlanta and on most occassions, I have been able to deliver. He took a shot at me on this voting rights bill the other day, which I thought was somewhat gratuitous, but that was his business.
What did he say?
He was denouncing me for trying to make it apply to the nation as a whole rather than restricting it to the southern states. Now, the voter rights man, John Lewis, who probably has had more experience in voter registration than anybody in the United States, supported my position and I quoted him in my speech on the floor of the Senate the day before yesterday. He wanted to make it nationwide.
Have you known John Lewis very well at all, Senator?
I've seen him a few times in recent years. I have not known him a long time, no.
I used to cover him, of course, when he was with SNCC and then when he broke with SNCC because of black power and he has always seemed to me to be a very . . .
I had an opportunity to visit with him a few weeks ago. Curtis Atkinson,
my aide down in Atlanta, Georgia told me that John Lewis wanted to see
me and I was going up for a cocktail party at Andy Young's brother's
home, Dr. Young, and I said, "Curtis, why don't you just pick up
Isn't the Scotts who run the Atlanta Daily World?
Yes.
Of course, they are Republicans, aren't they, and have been, so I suppose that at least politically, you have had very little relationship with them?
I don't know that I have ever met Mr. Scott. I may have, I've known some of his editors. One of his former editors, I believe that his name is Gordon, is now with the U.S. Information Office and he always comes by to see me when he returns to Washington. I've done several small favors for him. He was very close to Ralph McGill, incidentally. He frequently talks about McGill when he comes to see me and I am very much impressed with him.
What about your relationship with Ralph McGill?
Our relationship was very cordial and pleasant throughout his life. He
was quite generous with me in most of his articles, even when the Constitution and Journal were not
supporting me. He wrote some impressive things about me during the first
race with Mr. Thompson. He moderated a
What about the other people on the Atlanta papers, Jack Tarver?
I've gotten along well with Jack. When he first came up there and wrote that little cute column from the Vidalia paper, the Macon paper. He first went from Vidalia to Macon and from Macon to the Atlanta papers, he was Biggers' associate at the time . . .
That was George Biggers.
Yes. And he would take a shot at me a time or two in his early days, he
was a clever writer, he would write these cute satirical articles. He
denounced me a few times, but our personal relationship for at least
fifteen or eighteen years has been very cordial and very friendly and I
consider him a friend. Incidentally, George Biggers and I got to be
friends about 1952. We went to lunch one day and George said, "Herman,"
or "Governor," or whatever he called me, "I need a good reporter. Do you
know where I can get one?" I said, "I know of two. One of them, I don't
know his name, but he is a young Jewish reporter on the Chattanooga Times. He met me at an airplane when I went up there
to speak and accompanied me to make a speech somewhere and we chatted
and he took voluminous notes and I happened to see the paper and it was
about two columns that he wrote about me and every bit of it was 100%
accurate. It was the most superb job of reporting that I ever think I
saw. The other one that I know is a young
What about other papers across the state?
Virtually all of them support me now.
I was going to say that you do have support pretty widely.
I don't know of any anti-Talmadge newspaper in the state of Georgia now. There was one newspaper in Jeffersonville, Georgia that supported my Democratic opponent in last year's campaign. I think that every other one supported me.
It must be that with the political backing that you do have in the state and have had for quite some time, that you wouldn't have to raise enormous sums of money to campaign.
No.
Is that true?
That's true. As a matter of fact, I had a good deal of money left over. I
did not solicit any money except that we had two campaign funds. One of
them was Georgians for Talmadge, that was headed up by Rogers Wade, who
is now my administrative assistant and also the young lawyer down there
that used to be with Dick Russell, what's his name . . . Charles . . .
he was in my office yesterday, went with Sizemore's firm . . . Charles
Campbell, who joined Lamar Sizemore's firm. He was in charge of it. They
raised
Now this was when?
This was last year, but this campaign fund has been in existence all along. We had some contributions . . .
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
. . . considerable funds left over in both campaign funds. So, we decided to refund the money to all of them that wanted it and they refunded the money on the Georgians for Talmadge and liquidated that. I think that they got back about thirty or forty cents on each dollar they contributed. The campaign fund that we've got here in Washington, none of them wanted it returned, so we just kept it. We are using it in accordance with the law for any purpose that furthers my political efforts or my office efforts. For instance, I do a weekly radio program that we send to all the Georgia radio stations and about twice a month, I do a television program that we send to all the t.v. stations. I do a weekly newsletter that goes out to virtually every newspaper in Georgia and then I do a mass mailing about once a month. We pay for that out of leftover campaign funds, also entertainment expenses, sometimes I have to give luncheons from time to time. Delegations that come up here from Georgia, we pay that out of the campaign funds.
You mentioned to me after the last interview, and after we had turned the
tape recorder off, that James Peters was one of the great men that
Jim Peters is a very great man in my book. He came up from humble origins, he was a country school teacher in Berrien County, Georgia. He was a very successful businessman and he contributed probably more to educational progress than any man in the history of our state. He served as chairman of the Board of Education for twelve or fourteen years, beginning with my administration and lasting until a few years ago. He was a highly successful banker. He owned the telephone system in his area. He had farmed . . .
Where was that, Manchester?
Yes. He had farmed and he was an intimate friend of Franklin D. Roosevelt, one of his closest personal friends . . .
And also a friend of your father's.
Also a friend of my father's and he was a very high minded man, a deeply religious man, honorable in every respect. He was one of the great men that I have known in my lifetime. He died last year at about ninety years of age.
Now, he had a tremendous impact, I suppose, politically too, didn't he?
Yes, he had friends throughout the state and particularly in his area where he was known.
Who else did you mention to me as being one of the great people that you have known?
Charlie Redwine.
Yes.
Charlie Redwine was similarly situated over in Fayette County.
Charlie Redwine is not living now?
No, Charlie Redwine died about ten years ago. I attended his funeral in Fayetteville, Georgia. Well, it is about seven o'clock, and I've got to get dressed, Jack.
All right, we'll continue later. Let me ask you something, though, I'll just turn this off . . .
END OF INTERVIEW