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Author: Ivey, John, interviewee
Interview conducted by Egerton, John
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by Mike Millner
Sound recordings digitized by Aaron Smithers Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2006
Size of electronic edition: 144 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2006.

In Copyright

The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text: English
Revision history:
2006-00-00, Celine Noel and Wanda Gunther revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic edition.
2006-12-11, Mike Millner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of recording: Oral History Interview with John Ivey, July 21, 1990. Interview A-0360. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History Program Collection (A-0360)
Author: John Egerton
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with John Ivey, July 21, 1990. Interview A-0360. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series A. Southern Politics. Southern Oral History Program Collection (A-0360)
Author: John Ivey
Description: 166 Mb
Description: 39 p.
Note: Interview conducted on July 21, 1990, by John Egerton; recorded in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
Note: Transcribed by Jackie Gorman.
Note: Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007): Series A. Southern Politics, Manuscripts Department, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note: Original transcript on deposit at the Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices
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Original grammar and spelling have been preserved.
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Interview with John Ivey, July 21, 1990.
Interview A-0360. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Ivey, John, interviewee


Interview Participants

    JOHN IVEY, interviewee
    MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY, interviewee
    JOHN EGERTON, interviewer

[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
JOHN EGERTON:
. . . your UNC context. When did you come here as a student?
JOHN IVEY:
'40.
JOHN EGERTON:
In 1940?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
Where was your home?
JOHN IVEY:
Down the street here.
JOHN EGERTON:
Oh, you grew up in Chapel Hill? Oh, when you were a youngster where did you grow up?
JOHN IVEY:
In Auburn, Alabama.
JOHN EGERTON:
Is that right? I didn't know that.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He and Bob Anderson . . . Bob was younger than John but, they were very close together and Bob came up after John in Auburn. They were very active in student government and student life there. John's father was head of poultry research there at Auburn University. John has two brothers, Bill Ivey and Mac Ivey, and they all grew up in Auburn, Alabama and all three of them came to the University of North Carolina.
JOHN EGERTON:
You came here as a graduate student then?
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
In sociology?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes. Melville was here too.
Page 2
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I came here as an undergraduate and I was in sociology and we met in grad school. I graduated in '40 here at Carolina. I was working for my master's degree here when he came to work.
JOHN EGERTON:
What was your maiden name?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
My name was Melville Corbett.
JOHN EGERTON:
Melville Corbett.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I was named after my great-grandfather. I don't know who he was named after.
JOHN EGERTON:
Where was your home?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Kinston, North Carolina.
JOHN EGERTON:
You came here and you knew Bob Anderson before.
JOHN IVEY:
I brought him up here.
JOHN EGERTON:
He actually came after you.
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
I see. What about [John] Folger? When did you meet him?
JOHN IVEY:
Through his father. I offered him a fellowship to come here to graduate school.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
All those boys because John brought all of them up and they all came up together.
JOHN EGERTON:
Where was Folger an undergraduate?
JOHN IVEY:
He was an undergraduate at . . .
JOHN EGERTON:
I ought to know that but I don't.
JOHN IVEY:
Georgia State College.
JOHN EGERTON:
Georgia State in Atlanta?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
Page 3
JOHN EGERTON:
Well, you knew his father [Dagnall Folger] when he was working for the Resettlement Administration?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
That far back you did?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, John had know him as an undergraduate and graduate student.
JOHN EGERTON:
Where did you encounter him?
JOHN IVEY:
I don't recall.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He traveled so much.
JOHN EGERTON:
Yes, I'm trying to figure out how you would have run into him. You were an undergraduate at Auburn from '35 to '40, in that period?
JOHN IVEY:
I graduated in '40.
JOHN EGERTON:
So, you must have started in '36 and Dag Folger was head of the Resettlement—or at least active in—the Farm Security Administration.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Well, John might have run across him when he worked . . . No, that would have been much later. We knew John before then. I was getting ready to say when John went to . . . During the War John worked for the Tennessee Valley Authority. He did war work over there. But, you knew John before then.
JOHN IVEY:
Who?
JOHN EGERTON:
John Folger and Dag.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, you came across Dag working as a first year graduate student. I think you have to know a little bit about John. When John came up here to get his master's degree Dr. Odum and Rupert Vance took an interest in him and they didn't want him
Page 4
to get his master's they wanted him to skip his master's and go on into his doctorate. They worked with him and took him almost as a special student. They took him everywhere. Dr. Odum took him practically everywhere he went. He was connected with Morgan over in western North Carolina and at the Tennessee valley Authority. He could have run across Dag at Brevard or at the white mountain group, or . . .
JOHN EGERTON:
Sure, all kinds of places. Did you know Odum and Vance before you came here as a graduate student? You must have known their reputation at least.
JOHN IVEY:
Yes, I knew of them.
JOHN EGERTON:
But, you didn't know them personally?
JOHN IVEY:
I didn't know them personally.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I was Dr. Odum's teaching assistant when I was getting my master's degree.
JOHN EGERTON:
A couple more people I want to ask you about. Winfred Godwin is a little bit younger than this group, is that right?
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Was he a graduate student here also?
JOHN IVEY:
He was a graduate student after I left. I didn't know him here.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
We didn't know Winfred until we got to Atlanta.
JOHN EGERTON:
What about Phil Hammer?
JOHN IVEY:
I knew Phil Hammer through . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was here long before we were.
JOHN IVEY:
No, I don't think so, Mel.
Page 5
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was in the postgraduate school around here when I was an undergraduate because I knew his wife, Jane. Jane worked for Horace Williams. She had a teaching assignment just like I did for Horace Williams in the philosophy department. We both knew of Phil.
JOHN EGERTON:
But, he wasn't involved in any of these regional planning programs?
JOHN IVEY:
No.
JOHN EGERTON:
The sociology department?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
No, not at all. He came along later and was interested in the North Carolina state planning.
JOHN EGERTON:
Are there any other individuals that I have not named but that you think of as being kind of present at the creation of SREB? Not politicians but staff people.
JOHN IVEY:
Woodrow Breland.
JOHN EGERTON:
Tell me about him.
JOHN IVEY:
Woodrow was a graduate student. I picked him up at Auburn and brought him up here and gave him a fellowship. He went on through and got his doctorate.
JOHN EGERTON:
Would it have been during the war in the early 40's?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, it was during the 40's. Woodrow came up here and his wife, Peggy Breland, Margaret James Breland. Margaret James Breland was very important in the movement too. Margaret James and Woodrow worked very close with my husband and working with students and writing and that kind of thing.
Page 6
Bill McGlochlin, of course, was very important in the SREB movement at that time. John had known Bill in the Tennessee Valley Authority. Bill was director of personnel. Then we ran across him when John went to knoxville for eighteen months. John was a full professor here and he left to go do war work in Knoxville. That's when he started working with Bill McGlochlin. He went to the University of Louisville, and was a vice-president there before he died. Bill was still at the Tennessee Valley Authority when he came over to the SREB.
JOHN EGERTON:
You came here as a graduate student in 1940. How old were you then?
JOHN IVEY:
About twenty.
JOHN EGERTON:
Twenty years old.
JOHN IVEY:
I was born in 1919.
JOHN EGERTON:
Okay, so you were twenty or twenty-one at the oldest. You went straight into the doctoral program?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Not only that, they devised a special curriculum for him. [laughter] Oh, yes, the rest of us were plodding through but they developed an interdisciplinary curriculum for him. That poor soul was . . . All the time he was taking his doctoral work he was boning up on things he hadn't read or hadn't had any contact with it. They just skipped him over it and made him get it on his own.
JOHN EGERTON:
How long did it take you to get the doctorate?
JOHN IVEY:
I got my degree in 1944.
JOHN EGERTON:
In '44.
Page 7
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
No.
JOHN EGERTON:
Does that seem right?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
No, that doesn't seem right. wait a minute. Yes, that's about right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Were you in the military at all?
JOHN IVEY:
No.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was one of the head cadets at the ROTC in Auburn. He got all kinds of honors but they wouldn't let him in the military. [laughter] He went to the Army, the Navy, the Marines, and everything else and they wouldn't let him in because of his eyesight and he had a bad ankle and a bad leg. He was in a polo accident. He played polo when he was at Auburn and two horses collided and he hurt his leg and after that they wouldn't touch him.
JOHN IVEY:
You are probably telling him more than he wants to know.
JOHN EGERTON:
You were born in Auburn?
JOHN IVEY:
I was born in Raleigh.
JOHN EGERTON:
In Raleigh, but your father had gone to Auburn to teach.
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
How old were you when you moved there?
JOHN IVEY:
I was about five.
JOHN EGERTON:
Just a young kid. So, that's really your home.
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
By the time you got here Howard Odum had been here for a long time. He was an institution here by then.
Page 8
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Rupert Vance was practically as well.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Rupert Vance had been Odum's student.
JOHN EGERTON:
He was his understudy.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He took him and shaped him and Zimmerman over in the economic's department, they shaped him practically. Harriet Herring, Rupert Vance, Katherine Yaca, Guy Johnson—all of them were in that group.
JOHN EGERTON:
And in effect what they singled you out for was what they had gone through. Isn't that right?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
Were there other people that they singled out like you, the next generation, your generation, to be sort of their proteges?
JOHN IVEY:
I got most of the people through the TVA. I got fellowships for them. Odum just engulfed the whole operation.
JOHN EGERTON:
In effect, you were a recruiter for him. You were helping him locate and identify and bring in new graduate students.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
And new generations, that's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Would that be a correct assessment?
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Let's talk about Odum and Vance as personalities for a minute. Did they always work closely together? Were they always good friends, not rivals, but real associates?
JOHN IVEY:
I think so.
Page 9
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Dr. Vance had great respect for Dr. Odum. He was like a father figure.
JOHN EGERTON:
How did Odum relate to Frank Porter Graham and some of the other institutions around the campus here?
JOHN IVEY:
Graham in his orbit got tied up with the cattle breeders and Odum through vance and different people with the WPA, whose names I don't recall . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Frank Alexander, Guy Johnson and his wife Guion Johnson, Harriet Herring was in labor relations in the South. They were all graduate students that came through the curriculum. Zimmerman, I don't know where Eric Zimmerman who was over in the economics department . . . was very sympathetic to regional studies and he and Dr. Odum together were a very strong influence in the University. Frank Graham was very sympathetic to regionalism in the movement. Of course, Dr. Odum was interested in race relations. He has books that he wrote on race and so forth. I think he had one on race that he was writing when he died. Dr. Odum counseled Graham. I think they were fairly close. I know Dr. Odum was always very protective of him, he defended him.
JOHN IVEY:
They came together on the issue of race.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, Dr. Odum would always come to the defense of Frank Graham and if there was anything he could do to help him he would help him. They both had their enemies as you well know. There was always an active group trying to get rid of both of them. We knew Frank Graham when John went to NYU. Frank Graham was at the UN working on the Kashmir problem.
Page 10
JOHN EGERTON:
In the 30's, in the late 30's, before you came here . . . In fact, since you were at Auburn as an undergraduate in '38, I wonder if you by chance went to the Southern Conference for Human Welfare meeting in Birmingham that November?
JOHN IVEY:
No.
JOHN EGERTON:
There was a large delegation of Auburn faculty members and students who went.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Strangely enough John's interest in regionalism came from strictly reading. He got hold of everything Dr. Odum had written and he started reading it. He read Zimmerman and he read Vance and so when he came to Carolina most of his experience was out of the books, it wasn't knowing the people or being in the movements or anything like that. It was strictly academic. It made up his mind he wanted to know more about what it was. He really was in pre-med. He was going to study to be a doctor at one time.
JOHN EGERTON:
That meeting in Birmingham, which was presided over by Frank Porter Graham, who made the keynote address, was not attended by Odum and Odum never had any association with that organization. Frank Graham remained active in it for about ten years. It became very controversial. It was branded a communist organization and so forth. Graham stayed with it and Odum never touched it.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Dr. Odum was very, very careful about trying not to be touched by the stench of communism if he could. If it came right down to the last battle he would go in and fight. He thought you ought to be smart enough to evade it to begin with. It would be
Page 11
my guess that if he had any type of differences with Graham he thought he probably wasn't careful enough to keep his trail cleared, to prepare his way a little more carefully.
JOHN EGERTON:
Conversely, Odum was instrumental in Southern Regional Council and active in it for the rest of his career.
JOHN IVEY:
He put a lot of time in it.
JOHN EGERTON:
But, Frank Graham never had anything to do with SRC.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
One was more interested in political issues and the other one was interested in social issues. They just went special ways. It wasn't that they were competitive or anything like that, it's just that their interests in their ability to do good or to do something—they had no clout in certain areas so they stayed out of them. That's the only way that I could see it.
JOHN EGERTON:
It's just something I wonder about when I read and I see one of them is here and very active and the other one won't go there and the other one is over here and the other guy doesn't go to it.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
See, I don't think there is anything particularly there. They both were a little prima donna-ish, we both know that. That's an established fact. When it came to important things I don't think . . . There were more hard feelings between Coates and Odum. Graham, quite frequently, was refereeing that, trying to keep that one going.
JOHN EGERTON:
Who was Coates?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Coates was head of The Institute of Government here at Carolina and really got in an awful lot of trouble.
Page 12
JOHN EGERTON:
What was his whole name?
JOHN IVEY:
Albert.
JOHN EGERTON:
Albert Coates. What about W.T. Couch, did he figure into this in any significant way?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
We knew him and of course we came in contact with him. He was over at Duke, wasn't he?
JOHN EGERTON:
No, he ran the press here.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Oh, I know. I got the wrong man.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did you know Couch pretty well?
JOHN IVEY:
Pretty well.
JOHN EGERTON:
The press was really the voice of this movement in many ways because it published so many of the works of Odum and Vance and many other people who were working in the South at that time.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
One was Margaret Bond. Was that her name?
JOHN IVEY:
Marjorie Bond.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
She was the editor over at the press and she, John, and Dr. Vance did a book together on the South. She was instrumental in getting people interested in writing about the South at that time.
I never did know Couch. I knew him when I saw him, but I didn't know him.
JOHN EGERTON:
You got you PhD in '44, where did you go then? You went to work for TVA then?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
How long did you stay with them?
JOHN IVEY:
Three years.
JOHN EGERTON:
Until '47?
Page 13
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
Then where did you go, what was your next assignment after the TVA job? Did you come back here?
JOHN IVEY:
Odum gave me a job here. He brought me back from Knoxville.
JOHN EGERTON:
You were teaching here?
JOHN IVEY:
Teaching and researching and developing a program for the American Council on Education, which was concerned with translating research on the South and teaching materials that could be used in the classroom. I did all the work for elementary and secondary schools and colleges in agricultural experimental stations.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He did an awful lot in state planning when we came back for the simple reason that he had gotten his doctorate in state planning, state and city planning. It was the overall view of social planning and engineering and so forth. They set up a special division for you. What was that?
JOHN IVEY:
They set up a division in the Institute for Research in Social Science. Gordon Blackwell was pulled into it. Vance and Odum always cheered us on.
JOHN EGERTON:
That was where the seeds of SREB were planted, isn't it?
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
The next year, '48, there was a governors conference in Wakulla Springs, Florida. And '48 was a very important year because that was the year of the Dixicrats and it was the year of Truman's election. It was the year of a very divisive political
Page 14
campaign that included Henry Wallace's campaign. There was a lot of turmoil going on in the South at that time.
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
The governors in Florida subsequently met later that year in Savannah and it was out of those two meetings that SREB came. Does that sound right to you?
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Do you remember at what point you were approached about working for this group and who approached you to do it? Was it Odum or would it have been somebody else?
JOHN IVEY:
I was tied in with the Council of State Governments in Chicago, which tied in with the university background. It was tied in with the . . . I can't remember.
JOHN EGERTON:
Okay, so somebody approached you, somebody came to you and said, "This organization is going to be formed and this is right down your alley and we need you to go to work for this." Who would that have been? Would that have been Odum or Vance or would it have been somebody in state government?
JOHN IVEY:
Odum and I had a big difference of opinion. Well, I say, whether to develop my career and contacts with academic affairs or political science figures or the extent to which I should be an academic person.
JOHN EGERTON:
This was essentially a political job [SREB].
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Dr. Odum always said that John was trying to do too much. He was spreading himself too thin and he wanted him to go and just be a professor and write. John's interests were in
Page 15
working with people, he loved people and he loved to work with them. He had ideas whenever he worked with them, he seemed to just blossom and come alive doing that kind of thing. It didn't make good sense for him to remain a research person.
JOHN EGERTON:
So, who do you think it was who came to you and said, "This is not a research job, this is a people job and we need you for it?"
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Did Millard Caldwell, John, was he one of the early ones?
JOHN IVEY:
I suppose you could say that.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
We knew Ernest Melby out of Chicago. I don't know whether you have ever heard of Ernest Melby. Ernest Melby was an educator, he was in high administration and he was at the University of Chicago. John had gotten used to him and he took a great liking to John and he wanted him to come into education, the field of education. John, when he was graduate student, had done work with the American Council on Education and in translating research into education. He made up his mind that that was the field that he wanted to do because people kept doing research and solving problems and then making the same mistakes over and over again. The real problem was to try to find some way to get the research into channels of action.
JOHN EGERTON:
Into the curriculum.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, that's right. So, rather than just be a catalyst, he saw himself as a catalyst or as a translator of research. That's what he wanted to do and Ernest Melby understood it. Ernest Melby took a job as dean of the college of education at
Page 16
NYU. He wanted John to come and be his associate dean. He told him he would teach him everything he knew along that line. John was really looking for an apprenticeship. He was looking for somebody that could counsel him and guide him and help him and direct him. Ernest—he's dead now—but he was an absolutely marvelous person, a man, a terribly important man. He had a lot of influence on John.
We went to New York to take this job and Dr. Odum was terribly disappointed.
JOHN EGERTON:
Would that have been in '47 or '48?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
John took a lot of political bashing because he was going to NYU to study and to work.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did you accept it?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, we accepted the job. We were staying at a hotel in New York and we found a house out in Westchester. The Melbys had helped us find a house. We had the children and we were trying to get settled so he could start work. We kept getting telephone calls from Millard Caldwell. Mostly Millard was the one who kept calling.
JOHN EGERTON:
He was then the governor of Florida.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes. Who was after Millard? Who was governor after MIllard? I can't think of his name. He went on to become head of the civil rights.
JOHN IVEY:
Roy Collins.
JOHN EGERTON:
Roy Collins.
Page 17
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
This was too early for Roy. Roy wasn't in on this then.
JOHN EGERTON:
Can you think of anybody else who was importuning you to not to go to New York and live but to come back down here and take this job?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes, it was very simple, the American Council on Education, which was chaired by Zook . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
George Zook.
JOHN IVEY:
George Zook . . . set up a committee on research and education. The influence of that committee spread throughout the country. Floyd Reeves, do you know Floyd Reeves?
JOHN EGERTON:
I think I do.
JOHN IVEY:
Floyd Reeves is an important person.
JOHN EGERTON:
Where was he?
JOHN IVEY:
He was at the University of Chicago.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
A lot of the movement . . . A lot of the people that did work in the South at that time were influenced by the University of Chicago. [laughter] People don't know that kind of thing. They just don't really realize the influence.
JOHN IVEY:
I'm going to tell you about this thing. Zook created this committee and Maurice Seay of the University of Kentucky was on it. He put a lot of time and energy on it. Thurgood Marshall before he got into politics . . . This committee, ten people on it, I can't remember all of them, played a major role. You raised the question, who talked me into coming to the Southern Regional Education Board. Frank Porter Graham came into the picture, in the sense that he helped to get this committee set
Page 18
up. Odum wasn't too enthusiastic about this. He didn't see this committee as having any tie-in with what he was trying to do.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was afraid it was going to get too political. He was scared of politics.
JOHN EGERTON:
He never did like politics.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was scared of politics.
JOHN EGERTON:
He didn't like conflict.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Well, that's true, but he had an awful lot of it. He was in constant conflict.
JOHN EGERTON:
He didn't relish it.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He didn't trust politics. As soon as they started getting too political he would always go around another way if he could make it.
JOHN IVEY:
Well, that takes you from where I got my education to the Southern Regional Education Board.
JOHN EGERTON:
You went to New York and only got as far as a hotel in Manhattan and you turned around and came back South to Atlanta.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
That's right, we did.
JOHN EGERTON:
In the spring of '48 . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
We had two small children and believe me it wasn't easy.
JOHN EGERTON:
Would that be the right time, the spring?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes. At NYU they voted to give him a leave of absence. When he went back up there as chancellor they announced he had the longest leave of absence of anybody that had ever had a job at NYU. [Laughter]
JOHN EGERTON:
How long did you stay in Atlanta then?
Page 19
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Nine years.
JOHN EGERTON:
From '48 to '57?
JOHN IVEY:
Well, not quite that. '48 is right, but '57 comes a little harder.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
We went to New York in '57. '56 would be closer, wouldn't it, John?
JOHN IVEY:
I think it was.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Leland was born in New York and we had been there a year when she was born, so it was '57.
JOHN EGERTON:
When you got to Atlanta, you turned back to Chapel Hill and started recruiting all these people that you had brought over there for graduate studies.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He didn't have to recruit them, they all wanted to come and work.
JOHN EGERTON:
Folger and Anderson and all the rest of them.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
It was a wonderful time to be alive because everybody seemed to know what they were doing and they wanted to do it and all they needed was for somebody to give them an opportunity. They had the opportunity and it was just a wonderful place to be and a wonderful time to be alive.
JOHN EGERTON:
I want to explore one part of the whole construction of SREB with you to clarify a point. There was a lot of talk in the press at that time about the governors' collective strategy to avoid desegregation. It had become a big issue. The University of Arkansas had admitted black students to their graduate schools without court pressure that same year. Kentucky was about to do it under a court order. Maryland and Missouri, all these border
Page 20
states were all ready. Texas had a big lawsuit going and the governors were looking at the probability that they were going to have to desegregate higher education. They didn't want to do it. Somebody in their ranks came up with this essentially political solution that if we let the white vet students go to Auburn and the black vet students go to Tuskeegee and we send black medical students to Meharry and the white medical school won't have to be desegregated. It was a political stop gap measure for them. Somehow when it got staffed, it got staffed with people who didn't have the same ideological motivation. As a consequence, as time went on, it was only two years later in October of 1950, in a case in Maryland where a black student wanted to go to the University of Maryland and there was a big dispute. You were quoted in the paper as saying that you favored the admission of that black student and that the purpose of SREB was not to block desegregation but to make education more available. Have I given a correct interpretation of the events of that time?
JOHN IVEY:
One hundred percent.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was the friend of the court. He took an awful beating for that.
JOHN EGERTON:
Before we talk about the beating you took, I want to talk about the time right at the time you took the job. Do you recall the governors or their staffs essentially spelling out for you the political realities of this job and what the limitations were as far as race was concerned?
JOHN IVEY:
I don't remember.
Page 21
JOHN EGERTON:
You made up your mind to come back to Atlanta and take this job. The organization was already created, I mean the governors had said, "we are going to do it" and they were putting up the money to staff it.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
But there wasn't any staff.
JOHN EGERTON:
There wasn't any staff.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
It was a card table for a long time.
JOHN EGERTON:
You were it.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
So, I'm wondering if anybody in the political realm said to you, "this is what your job is and these are the limitations, we're trying to keep black students from going to these schools?"
JOHN IVEY:
I don't recall any series of discussions like that on the limitations on the Southern Regional Education Board as a device to keep blacks out of white schools and whites out of black schools.
Millard Caldwell was very important in this whole evolution. He was the governor of Florida and he was a person I could always get on the phone.
JOHN EGERTON:
He was the first chairman of SREB, wasn't he?
JOHN IVEY:
That's right. And so Doak Campbell . . .
JOHN EGERTON:
President of Florida State University?
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Good friend of Caldwell's?
JOHN IVEY:
Good friends.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Doak always wanted John to be president of Florida State. He tried his best to get him to come.
Page 22
JOHN EGERTON:
This is kind of a blunt way to put it, but I need to know this. If you were describing the politicians of the South in that time you would think of people like Herman Talmadge, and Senator Bilbo, and John Rankin, and some others as just sort of boiler plate racists. There was no veneer there, they were what they were. There was another group of governors who were very conservative but who probably wouldn't have gone to the barricades to keep segregation in place. Do you think of Millard Caldwell as being one of the latter? Was he soft on integration or was he a hard-line integrationist?
JOHN IVEY:
He didn't much care.
JOHN EGERTON:
He didn't much care. He wasn't an ideological racist.
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He definitely wasn't.
JOHN EGERTON:
The fact that he was more of a pragmatic politician who wanted to get his program through made it possible for him to see SREB as an instrument for improving education in the South, and if it resulted in desegregation down the line he wasn't going to get to worried about it one way or the other.
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Maybe the ideal kind of person to be chairman the first time. Not an ideologue, not a bleeding-heart liberal and not a boiler-plate racist, but a pragmatic, program-oriented person.
JOHN IVEY:
He had trouble learning to work with me. I had trouble learning to work with him. We were so different. He would go to any lengths. He called me one day and said that I was causing trouble for him with the governor of Mississippi.
Page 23
JOHN EGERTON:
Governor [Fielding] Wright.
JOHN IVEY:
Governor of Mississippi and I had to get acquainted with each other. It became clear that in their eyes the political cart was not running the show).
JOHN EGERTON:
Let me see if I can make clear what you are saying. Governor Wright of Mississippi and Governor Thurmond [of South Carolina] and Governor Laney of Arkansas and a few others at that time were in the midst of this whole Dixicrat revolt. They had a political agenda they were working on. It must have become clear to them fairly early in SREB that unless you were taking this organization in the direction they wanted to go, that is, a hardline segregationist direction, that you were going to cause trouble for them. And if I understand what you say about Millard Caldwell, he wasn't necessarily in their camp or anybody's camp, he was just trying to get his job done.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was very fond of John. He couldn't get along with him but he was very fond of him. He always said, "I like that boy, that boy is a fine fellow. He's going to be a fine man." He kept saying that all the time. [laughter]
JOHN EGERTON:
Well, Caldwell must have been getting some political flack from these other guys.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I'm sure he did.
JOHN EGERTON:
They were saying to Caldwell, "you've got to get this guy Ivey in line because he's going to mess this whole thing up for us. Is this possible?
JOHN IVEY:
It's true.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
It wasn't only possible, it was the truth. [laughter]
Page 24
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Page 25
JOHN EGERTON:
Almost from the very beginning of your job as head of SREB the political pressures that surrounded the racial issue came to bear on you.
JOHN IVEY:
Right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did Caldwell pretty much stick with you in the way you were doing your job?
JOHN IVEY:
He stuck with me.
JOHN EGERTON:
Even though you had disagreements you never did fall out of favor with him?
JOHN IVEY:
No. He ended up trying to make me president of the college down there.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Florida State. John designed them a college down there and then he tried to get him to come and be president of that.
JOHN EGERTON:
Would that have been the university of South Florida?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes. John did the original design. He didn't get credit for it. [laughter] He's the one who actually set it up and designed it.
JOHN EGERTON:
I can tell you for a fact he didn't get credit. I'm in a position to know because I was the first PR director at the University of South Florida. I had no notion that you had any direct involvement with it at all.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He kept trying to get them interested. . . . He's never done just one thing he always has lots of things he's doing all the time. That was one thing he was definitely interested in and he got Millard interested in it and Doak Campbell interested
Page 26
in it. That was the kind of thing that they used to talk about when they would sit and talk after dinner.
JOHN IVEY:
Ken Williams was pulled into it.
JOHN EGERTON:
Kenneth Williams.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
John knew him when we lived in Atlanta. John did a study of the schools in Atlanta mainly because our children were going to school in the basement of church. Our youngest one didn't even have a desk his first two years. I told John, I said, "you are out trying to save the region and your own child doesn't even have a desk to go to school with." [laughter] So, he got interested in the city schools.
JOHN EGERTON:
In 1948, you and Millard Caldwell, he was the chairman and you were the executive director, do you recall how long he remained chairman of SREB?
JOHN IVEY:
He went from SREB chairmanship back into private practice after he left the governor's office. I don't believe I can pull anything out of my mind.
JOHN EGERTON:
I can check that to see who came after him and when it was and all. By 1950, it was pretty clear then that there was this real split in the ranks between the ones who wanted SREB to be an instrument of segregation and those who wanted it to be an instrument of educational improvement.
JOHN IVEY:
That's a fact.
JOHN EGERTON:
You were over here on this side. Thurmond, Wright and Laney and Talmadge and a bunch of others were on the other side.
JOHN IVEY:
Jim Folsom.
JOHN EGERTON:
Jim Folsom would have been on your side, wouldn't he?
Page 27
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Herman Talmadge was sort of on again, off again too, wasn't he? Herman and John got along beautifully. Herman would listen to anything John had to say. John could always get in to talk to Herman and Herman was always very kind, very generous, and very receptive. He never turned him away on anything.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did he or any of these others give you a hard time after you took the public position on that Maryland case?
JOHN IVEY:
It seemed to quiet them down.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
[laughter] They were subdued. [laughter] It's the silence before the storm.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did you ever feel like your job was in jeopardy?
JOHN IVEY:
Every morning.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He never felt very secure period. [laughter]
JOHN EGERTON:
From politicians obviously.
JOHN IVEY:
Yes, politicians. I had the most interesting job you could have.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Everybody that wasn't after him was boring. [laughter]
JOHN EGERTON:
Did the university presidents give you a hard time or were they pretty much all on your side in this?
JOHN IVEY:
I had pretty good credentials. [inaudible]. I wouldn't say that the university personnel was hard to get along with. [unknown].
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
They didn't recognize his . . . I remember when we moved to Atlanta and John was so busy all the time. But people were very nice to me. Bill Paty and his wife were so wonderful to us. I remember she took me to a social event right after I
Page 28
had first moved there. All down the line I got introduced as Mrs. John Ivey, they're in education but not real education. [laughter] By the time I came home and I told my husband, I said, "you know you're in education but you're not in real education." He said, "what kind of education are we in?" I said, "I don't know but there must be two kinds and we're definitely in the other kind." [laughter] We didn't socialize, we didn't have any interchange with the education group at all. The political group were very nice to us in Atlanta. The school system people were very nice. We got to know the foundation people and that group, but we didn't mingle socially with any of the group at Emory because they didn't invite us. We just weren't included. John was included working, the working relations were very good, but socially we weren't. It's as if we weren't there.
JOHN EGERTON:
How would you characterize your own philosophy on the racial issue back at that time, Mr. Ivey?
JOHN IVEY:
How would I characterize my . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
You're looking at somebody that never does see color. He sees people, he doesn't see color. Never has. When he came up here as a graduate student and Dr. Odum was teaching at night school, I don't know whether you know that, but Dr. Odum had classes over at Durham, and the black colleges over there in Greensboro. He taught them at night because they couldn't get accredited professors to do the graduate work so the kids could get degrees. He would recruit graduate students and this one [John] was one of the main ones who volunteered to go over.
Page 29
Even when he was starting out and he had so much on him because he really hadn't had that good a background and all to start out the way he was. He was going over and teaching at night. He enjoyed his classes very much and the students. He made a good friend . . . What was his name? We met him back in India, we came across him in India. Do you know who I'm talking about? Anyhow, he was a black professor and very strongly in the Civil Rights movement and John came across him working as an assistant professor over there. We used to stay and play basketball with him and his wife.
JOHN EGERTON:
I guess the point I would like to get you to elaborate on a little bit is this was the time before the Civil Rights movement really began. Of course, nothing ever begins all of a sudden one day, there are antecedents. This period of time, particularly the time from the end of the war until the Brown decision in 1954, was a time when people in one way or another were having to decide where they stood on the issue of desegregation, on the end of segregation and Jim Crow laws and all that kind of thing. Some people had decided a long time before that, but the society had not decided and the culture was not being transformed in any extensive way at that time. So, any time you found yourself in a situation where the issue came up constantly, segregation versus desegregation, you had to make your own philosophical choice on where you're going to stand on that. I'm wondering if during this period of time you ever saw the job you had at SREB as being either a job that would lead to
Page 30
desegregation or a job that would prevent desegregation from happening?
JOHN IVEY:
I took the position all the way through that the economic development of the South, political development of the South, was dependant upon how well, how people could get others, on an equal basis, to work with them.
My contacts with people, I enjoyed [inaudible] [this passage is too faint to hear; it has to do, generally, with whites and blacks working together on the regional higher education program—JE].
JOHN EGERTON:
Do you feel that it [SREB] developed its own internal power that made it possible for it go on and serve the region irrespective of the views of the governors of a given time?
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Do you think you were aware of that as early as '48 or '49 or is that something that evolved later?
JOHN IVEY:
From the beginning.
JOHN EGERTON:
You had it from the beginning. The governor of Mississippi and the governor of South Carolina and the others who were practically every day saying in public, "we will never ever allow blacks and whites to go to school together as long as I'm governor of this state," either knew that wasn't true or else didn't realize how powerful an instrument for change they had created when they created SREB.
JOHN IVEY:
It was the latter.
JOHN EGERTON:
They didn't realize.
Page 31
JOHN IVEY:
Our approach to it seemed to be, the minute they find out that we double-crossed them, the press double-crossed them, we're in trouble.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did you reach that point?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
Fairly early? Certainly by 1950, when that Maryland thing happened you had reached it, hadn't you?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did you stay in trouble with some of those people from that point on?
JOHN IVEY:
Sure. There was something about me . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He didn't take it as being dangerous. [laughter]
JOHN EGERTON:
You didn't take it personally?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He didn't take any of it personally. He's always realized that it was so much bigger than he was that it didn't bother him because it didn't weigh on his shoulders very much. He worried but . . .
JOHN IVEY:
James Byrnes of South Carolina was a member of the Board of Directors of SREB, and Chairman of the Board of Trustees, too.
JOHN EGERTON:
Of the University of South Carolina or what?
JOHN IVEY:
Yes. I think he had been Secretary of State.
JOHN EGERTON:
Right, and he got elected governor.
JOHN IVEY:
[inaudible]
JOHN EGERTON:
Policy papers.
Page 32
JOHN IVEY:
[inaudible]. Byrnes came back from being Secretary of State and became Governor of South Carolina [unintelligible].
JOHN EGERTON:
Byrnes became mad?
JOHN IVEY:
He was all upset. [inaudible]. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible].
JOHN EGERTON:
In other words, he criticized you for giving him this position paper and said if he wanted to make his positions public he would write his own statement.
JOHN IVEY:
That's right.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did he do that in public in the course of the meeting or did he say it to you privately?
JOHN IVEY:
Both.
JOHN EGERTON:
Both?
JOHN IVEY:
He said it publicly because he had to, politically. He said it publicly because he wanted to.
JOHN EGERTON:
Cause he wanted to. What was it that he objected to so much in that paper?
JOHN IVEY:
[inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible].
JOHN EGERTON:
He was a pretty unyielding person in his positions and on race in particular; he was not a reconstructive liberated man of the world as he was in so many other ways. Do you think that
Page 33
this position paper had any undertones or overtones of racial change in it or was it not at all related to that?
JOHN IVEY:
He changed his relationship with me after that. [inaudible].
JOHN EGERTON:
You and he didn't get along too well? On a formal level.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was always pretty nice and friendly towards John socially. He was always very careful to speak to him and to be complimentary to him. He's a very sociable fellow anyhow, though, as you well know.
JOHN IVEY:
I don't want to give the impression that I was [inaudible].
JOHN EGERTON:
No, no, I understand what you are saying. Whether or not you yourself had a secure position it seems to me that the organization was secure once they had created it there was no way they could undo it. They couldn't say, "oops, we made a mistake, we changed our mind, we don't want regional education, we don't want any of this," strictly because they saw it going in a racial direction that they didn't like. They couldn't have gotten away with that it seems to me. The realization that SREB had a life of its own, that the governors as individuals no longer had the power, I mean, they could have stopped their state's appropriation probably. Individually they could have done that, but there never was a majority for that position anyway. SREB would have gone on even with a partial budget until somewhere down the line when everybody must have looked at it and said,
Page 34
"this is as permanent an institution in the South now as the University of Georgia or the university of South Carolina."
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
John tried to develop the universities. He traveled all the time during those years. He was never home. He would speak to legislatures. He would go from state to state to state speaking to any legislative group, the House, the Senate, anybody that would open up to him he would go and speak. It was always about economic development or educational development. He would go from university to university. There were very few colleges and universities that he didn't hit one time or the other. He would just thoroughly go through. Then they organized the legislators in the SREB so that they had conferences and study committees and that kind of thing. Then you had your legislators knowing what was going on as well as the governors knowing what was going on as well as the presidents of the universities and colleges. You had a support group. You had a network of support.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did Howard Odum ever have any further contact with you over the organization of SREB? He wasn't real keen on that idea as it began. Did he change his mind? I know you kept a personal relationship with him or I assume you did.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Yes, we named our son after him.
JOHN EGERTON:
Did he continue to be a counselor, a mentor of yours, a colleague during those years? I'm thinking of a different category here now. He was special to you earlier on, you were his protege.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He was special to us right up until he died.
Page 35
JOHN EGERTON:
That's what I wanted to be clear about.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I remember when he died. He didn't want me to come but he wanted John to come. John went to see him and he sent a note back by John to me. He wanted to see John but he didn't want me to see him in the condition he was in. He didn't mind John seeing him in that condition. We were very close with him right up until his death.
JOHN EGERTON:
When was that?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
'54 or '55. Somewhere around in there. I'm just guessing. I remember we came up when they were having the funeral. John and I didn't go up close. We went up to the cemetery but we didn't go in with the family and all. We stayed way over on the side. It was mighty hard.
JOHN EGERTON:
Back in those days when desegregation was more and more an issue or race was more and more an issue, the position that most people tended to take was, whether it was governors or the press or other people in public life, the common statement that you heard was, "if the North would leave us alone, if Congress would quit trying to push programs down our throats, we will work out this social problem in our own way and on our own terms." Would you say that was a fairly common statement that you would hear governors make and whatnot in that time?
JOHN IVEY:
I don't know about . . .
JOHN EGERTON:
I'm thinking that people who took that position really never were able to deliver on that promise. If they said, "we don't need a federal anti-lynching law or anti-poll tax law or fair employment practices law at the federal level because we can
Page 36
work that problem out ourselves," the problem never got worked out until the courts through education cases and the black population through protests finally compelled the South to change, it seems to me. Does that seem right to you or not? Or would you be more inclined to say that we truly did work it out ourselves?
JOHN IVEY:
I think a lot of the answers to the questions will come in 1992.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
That's what he says all the time. He says whatever happens with 1992 is going to determine how successful it was.
JOHN EGERTON:
What do you think is going to happen?
JOHN IVEY:
I think the governors, new governors—in Georgia . . .
JOHN EGERTON:
It's either going to be Zell Miller or Andy Young.
JOHN IVEY:
Andy Young. [inaudible] series of alliances put together [inaudible] SREB [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible]
JOHN EGERTON:
We just need to get it together.
JOHN IVEY:
Yes.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
He's also noted that in the past years, in the last decade, the SREB has become a research, largely a research organization, which is needed.
JOHN EGERTON:
But, not a action group.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
But, not a catalyst agency and not a transiator of that research. They do the research and publish it and wherever it lands is fine, but that's not the way to go about it. That's the
Page 37
thing that he's tried to prove all his life that it doesn't do any good to do research unless you find a way to channel it in where it's needed, because if you just do it, it just sits there. The main disappointment he's had in the last few years is not seeing any sign that the catalyst that it used to be is still there and the fact that it's translator is still there. They are doing some good research and the states recognize their research and welcome it and use it for any purpose they want to use it. That's not the SREB he saw.
JOHN EGERTON:
This has been very helpful for me and I'm certainly very much indebted to you both for letting me come and talk to you. Do you think of anything else that we hadn't talked about along these lines that you would like to say?
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
When we were in Michigan and he was there in the College of Education he got Parkinson's while we were at NYU. He helped the Ford Foundation and Westinghouse do an experiment in airborne television. He went over and then became the Dean of the College of Education at Michigan State. John was very discouraged, he didn't know what he could do, whether he was capable of working or anything because he was relatively disabled. John Hannah insisted that he could be Dean of the College of Education there. We stayed there nine years. When they integrated the schools in Bogahusa, Louisiana he went down. He didn't tell me about it but he went down and visited the elementary schools and they were chasing him with shotguns and pick-up trucks. [laughter] He didn't have to do that but he did it. He and Theodore Hisburgh have kept contact, and Leroy
Page 38
Collins, who worked with the civil rights movement. He's been discouraged over that one too. Things aren't going like we were hoping they would go. As he said, 1992 is going to tell if there is any cream left.
JOHN EGERTON:
The older I get the less I understand.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
Just wait until you get to be our age. [laughter]
JOHN IVEY:
Have you had any contact with the Council of State Governments?
JOHN EGERTON:
No sir, I haven't. I know that organization, but I never have had any contact with them.
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
I used to go with John when he would go to conferences and conventions. He would take me with him. I had heard so much about Jim Folsom and I remember going to a conference of the subcommittee that he was heading, certain educational problems in the South, and so I went in just to listen to him. I swear he was one of the most erudite men I have ever heard. He had the facts at the tips of his fingers. He made perfect sense. I would have gotten up and followed him anywhere, then I realized this was Jim Folsom. [laughter] It's amazing. He knew what he was talking about. He knew where the problems were and how to deal with them.
JOHN IVEY:
I'm going to get Terry Sanford . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
There aren't any young people coming along these days like there were in our day. We go over to the Sociology Department and everybody is a statistician. They don't care what they are studying just so they can get the figures and run the
Page 39
computers and that kind of thing. The problem is of no importance, it has no value. They will study anything.
JOHN IVEY:
I was saying a while ago, Terry Sanford . . .
MELVILLE CORBETT IVEY:
A book by Terry Sanford? I think I know where it is, but I'm not sure. I was looking through some things the other day and I found a book where John had gone when Terry Sanford was governor. He asked John to come for dinner and speak to the group and talk about education in North Carolina in general. This was back when we were at Michigan State. They published everything he said and he didn't know about it. Somebody had sent him a copy of it a long time ago. At that time he was hoping that Terry Sanford was going . . . He kept asking John questions. Asking him what he thought about so and so and to be frank. That was one particular occasion where John just laid it on the line and let them have it. They published it. John had hoped that Terry Sanford was going to do more. I don't know whether it is not possible to do it or whether they just don't have the know-how or the leadership to do it. They keep doing the same research over and over again, I know that.
END OF INTERVIEW
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