Remembering the Great Depression and worrying for the soul of America
Green remembers the Great Depression as an extension of his childhood in rural Harnett County, North Carolina. His plays about poverty both expressed something about his roots and what he saw around him in the 1930s. As Green reflects on poverty and history, he shares his fears about the disintegration of America's freedoms and his withering faith in the instruments of American power.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Paul Green, May 30, 1975. Interview B-0005-3. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
I want to ask you a very general question first,
which is not a very good way to do this, but as you think back over your
work when you first began writing plays here with the Carolina
Playmakers in the '20s and then the '30s, what do
you see as the impact of the Depression and the social ferment the
Depression era had on you as an artist and as a person?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Well, you ask what effect the Depression had on me as a writer and an
artist, that's asking what effect it had on others. You could
ask the same sort of question about what effect the First World War had,
or what did the disappointment in such people as Warren Harding and
Calvin Coolidge have, or what effect did the failure of Woodrow
Wilson's dream of a united world, a League of Nations, what
effect did that have on me? All these things are a part of the pabulum
or part of the grist that comes out of your mill that you mix up and
feed on. So, you see, the Depression of the '30s, its effect
on the environment in which I grew up, was simply a continued statement
of the poverty that I knew as a child. In Harnett County, when I was a child, the effect of the Civil War was still
there. The state, this university in part, had not recovered. Anyway,
the rural life in eastern North Carolina when I was a boy was very much
like the life and cimes of, say, the Revolution or pre-Civil War. The
roads were just sand beds and often in riding along in a wagon, you
would have to dodge the limbs that hung over the road from the trees on
either side. There was no paving. The doctors were rather crude. I
remember old Doctor McNeill, he carried his instruments of torture in a
saddle bag and he always came smelling of liquor. So, there was a hiatus
between my childhood and the '30s when I came up here as a
student and life was a little more active and less poverty stricken, but
the Depression was just a familiar condition to me and I had been
writing lots of stories and one act plays about the tenant farmers and
about the Negro and all of those plays and stories or playlets sang the
song of poverty, of depression, of almost disfranchisement, of lack of
opportunity, of the squeeze of economic serfdom.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
But did the change in the intellectual climate of the '30s
change the way that you thought about those problems, the causes of that
poverty, the solutions to those injustices?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Well, that's a good question, because when I was growing up
and we would go to church on Sunday and I remember that if somebody had
a dollar bill, they would say to my father, "Mr. Billy, I want
to give a quarter to the church today. Could you change a
dollar?" Well, my daddy, like everybody else, would open his
little purse, he had a little well worn pocketbook with a little snap on
it, and he would always turn his back on the questioner and open it and
fish out four quarters or fifty cents. That was an interesting habit
that people would always turn their backs when they made change. I used
to think about it. Well, money was so difficult to get and I guess that
they didn't want you to see how little they had in their
purse. Anyway, money was a squeezed item. So,
poverty was just natural to me, it was natural and the '30s
was just an old familiar thing. Of course, some of us had been able to
… I was able to get an old tin lizzie, a Ford, to drive in,
and during the Depression I was able to continue because I was teaching
here and I got some sort of a salary, not much. But all down in eastern
North Carolina where I was born, the people were reduced to what they
called "Hoover carts." I don't know whether
you know what a "Hoover cart" is. Well, they
weren't able to buy gasoline and they would take two wheels
off of a Ford and put it to a cart and have a mule or horse to pull it.
My sister, they all had "Hoover carts." And their old
Fords, that was about all they could afford, would set up under the
shelter. The kids had a lot of fun with these "Hoover
carts." So, I don't think it affected
…well, a person like John Steinbeck writing Grapes of Wrath came out of that. His fine novel was due
actually, I guess, to the Depression. Maybe he wouldn't have
written it without the Dust Bowl and so on in the Midwest. But it
didn't change me.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
I guess that what I am wondering is not so much whether the poverty of
the Depression changed you, surprised you, because I can see that it
would be very unlikely to. Just as the Depression for poor people
didn't make that much difference in people's lives
in a lot of ways. It made a difference much more slowly and
wasn't a great shock to those people. But by 1930, you were
part of a broader intellectual community. I am wondering more whether
you began to think more systematically about things that you had taken
more for granted, whether you felt more anger, were you moved more
toward looking for solutions?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Yes, I think that's a very good question. I sort of slipped
away from it. Did I ponder somewhat the reasons for this sort of thing,
why it had come? Now, the earlier post-Civil War
thing, there were a lot of old soldiers around and I would hear their
stories, the shadow of that great foolish tragedy, I guess, if a tragedy
can be foolish, was still clouding the scene, but slowly disappearing.
That came naturally. I had already begun to feel that it was a foolish
and insane war then, but I understood the reasons for our condition, why
there was so much poverty in eastern North Carolina. I understood that,
but when this thing in the '30s came on the nation, it
certainly raised a question of "What is wrong here? What is
wrong with our democracy that causes this to happen?" Then,
there were rebellions, blow-ups at places where people, the mill workers
sometimes and in sporadic instances in farming, you would read where a
Negro tenant had murdered his landlord or something. So, there were
sporadic rebellions against this condition, but no answer as to why this
had happened. I don't think that we got an answer. Actually,
I think that we hadn't solved the thing and this Second World
War came along and that put everybody in fear of an enemy and you could
get gas rationing, you could get controls, you could get all of that
because as soon as you are threatened from an outside enemy, you can
behave yourself and cooperate. So, now that we are in this present
recession, call it a depression, I am completely confused as to the
reasons and just as much confused by the remedies that are suggested.
They don't make sense. So now today, following the 1930
business, and we were assured by the fellows in Washington that it could
never happen again, couldn't have another one because
we've got these safeguards, we've got the Federal
Reserve, we've got the bank insurance and so on and banks
can't fail and it can't happen again. Now
apparently we are approaching the same sort of thing and no answers are
given.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
What did you think about the New Deal at the time?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Well, I was suspicious of the New Deal because from way back, hard work,
and I guess the way that we were raised in Harnett County, I felt that
you could not give people liberty, freedom and so on, just give it to
them. I will never forget the feeling that I had here at the University.
I went out to the athletic field one day where they had a steam shovel
digging a bank and so on. The steam shovel had been moved over to one
side and they had about a hundred men with shovels and wheelbarrows. I
said, "Great gun, what is going on here?"
"Oh, the New Deal is providing jobs." I said,
"Gee whiz, but look. It is just picayunish, that steam shovel
can do this." "Yes, but we have got to have
jobs." So, I said, "Well, this is crazy, because the
whole philosophy of the machine age is more result with less effort.
Push a button and a great bulldozer will push right through a
hill." So, I felt that this was not right, this was charity and
there was something wrong about it. Then when I was down in Manteo
working on a drama down there, and seeing the CCC camp boys, which was a
WPA, a government thing set up, these boys were planting sea oats along
the sand dunes and were protecting the sea shore and doing all kinds of
good work, I thought, "Well, this is great, because that is the
only way that they can do it." But to stop a steam shovel! I
don't know what is wrong, except a simple statement that a
democracy whose liberty, the liberty of its individuals can run rampant
without a concurrent responsiblity to go with the liberty or freedom,
will produce this sort of thing. If a labor union thinks mainly in terms
of its own self and EXXON oil people think only in terms of their
profit, then you get these head on competitions and you get fights and
this one will grab and this one will grab. So, our democracy now, that I
have always believed in, has got a terrible evil in it, a lack of sense
of responsibility to go with the freedom and I
think that there should be a balance there, a liberty carries with it an
equal responsibility. Only in that way will the liberty survive. It will
run rampant and go into some kind of madness and ultimately produce some
kind of dictatorship. This man, Judge Craven here, addressing the law
students recently for graduation ….
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Braxton Craven?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Braxton Craven said that the American people will not continue to fear
for their lives, violence, and be without jobs. They won't
endure that ultimately. Ultimately, they will be willing to give up the
Ten Amendments, freedom of assembly, freedom of this and that and the
other, in order to get these values which are now pretty much lost. When
I was in Russia, I could walk at night up and down the streets of
Leningrad or Moscow at any time of night. I can't do that in
Washington or New York. I don't dare do it. The fear for your
life has become so strong that Judge Craven said that ultimately people
would be willing to give up their certain kinds of liberty for jobs and
for safety. Well, my good friend Jonathan Daniels, who was Press
Secretary for awhile for President Roosevelt, editor of the News and Observer, he said, "Oh, you quit worrying.
We will muddle along. We'll continue."
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
When did he say that? Recently?
- PAUL GREEN:
-
Yes. I don't know that any of these things have affected what
I've been trying to do, what I have been trying to write,
except right now I am working on something and I can feel the present
situation in the country, the lack of leadership, the cruelty, the
wastage bearing down on me so that the scenes that I am working at now,
I feel them affected by it. So, I am having my characters say things
that were true then, this is back in 1783, they are
saying things that they might say a little differently if we
weren't in this dilemma. So, I go back to
Washington's farewell address, not in the play but as
something consonant to that. He said, "The nation is like a
man, its word, its honor. It must be believed in and it must adhere to
the truth, to the virtues." Now, our democracy has gotten to
where they wouldn't think of telling the truth. "Oh,
no, you musn't tell the truth." Like Henry
Kissinger, he meets someone and he smiles. And the CIA, now the arm of
the government has gotten so far and dissolute and degraded that it
indulges in murder. It advocates murder of your adversaries. It has been
pretty well proved. The Rockefeller Commission may not come out as
strongly about it, but I believe from what I have read, talked about and
heard, that they actually did plot to kill Castro, that they actually
did have something to do with the murder of Allende in Chile and that
murder … they use the word, "elimination, to
eliminate." Well, you say, "Great God, what have we
come to in this American democracy?" And this whooping up, even
worse than the Boy Scout jubilation of Henry Kissinger and Ford over
this wretched incident of the Mayaguez, this ship, and they went over
there and tore loose, and they came out with a great victory and people
are applauding. Now and whenever Ford appears, they stand up and give
him an ovation. So, you say, "Oh, American people, what are
you? What's happened?" Well, Jonathan would say,
"Well now Paul, we are just the way that we have always
been." But Rome wasn't always the same, Carthage
fell, Babylon fell, Tyre, a great many civilizations, Greece fell. I
have just been reading Oswald Spengler, I picked up his book in Germany
in 1928, I think it was, and he wrote a book, a two-volume thing,
already prophesying the downfall of the western world. He called it Der
Untergang des Abendlandes, the going down of the western world. His
theory was that the western world's
civilization is ripe and as Sir Walter Raleigh says, "in reason
rotten." I don't necessarily—well, I
don't know enough about it. One thing that H.L. Mencken
helped us do in the South, he used to make fun of the Bible Belt, you
know, and he said that one of the first ways of repentence and
rebuilding is to recognize the situation or condition that you are in.
So, way back then, before the Depression, I would go down to Harnett
County, or travel in eastern North Carolina, and the fields were all
brown in the winter time, the cotton stalks standing brown and empty,
and the tobacco stalks. I wrote a piece way back, a kind of a roll call,
I think that it was 1925, calling for us to have green fields in the
winter in the South. Let's have cattle. In Minnesota, where
it goes forty below zero, a great dairy country. And all of the
Piedmont, North Carolina is a wonderful soil for dairying, but we have
got more Baptists in North Carolina, than we have cows. "We
need more cows and less Baptists." Well now, part of the whole
southern reawakening came all around here. When I wrote that in 1925,
there wasn't a single dairy anywhere. My calling the roll had
nothing to do with it except that I was just representative of the whole
mood of the people, a reawakening in North Carolina. The University here
had a lot to do with it and State College, sending people out teaching
better farming. Now you can travel through here and you have green
fields all over eastern North Carolina. You can see cattle grazing. So,
we have done a lot in that way physically, but there is something that
has gone wrong in the political set up. Well, when Eisenhower became
President, I said, "Well, he may not be a very brilliant man,
but he is an honest man." Then we had this fellow Powers, who
flew over Russia in his U-2, whatever it was, and he fell and Eisenhower
declared that he knew nothing about any spies. He was telling a lie.
Later it was proved that he was lying and I thought, "Oh, my
goodness!" Then when Ford was
appointed, I thought that maybe he was an honest guy and he is going to
tell us the truth. One of the first things that he did was he claimed
that he had read all the correspondence and there was no agreement with
Vietnam, no agreement about force. Well, gosh, it comes out that the
very stuff that he said he had read, they showed it t.v. and quoting
Nixon who said, "We will respond with force." So, I
said, "My gosh, there's Ford. I can't
even believe in Ford."