Role of the ASWPL as a women's organization in the Commission for Interracial Cooperation
Raper describes the size of the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching (ASWPL), arguing that Jessie Daniel Ames was primarily added by a core group of half a dozen women. Additionally, he describes his own interactions with the ASWPL as the research director of the Commission on Interracial Cooperation and the role of the ASWPL within the larger Commission. Of particular interest are Raper's comments regarding the perception of Ames as an "excessive feminist" and her view of the ASWPL as an organization for women only.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Arthur Raper, January 30, 1974. Interview B-0009-2. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
The first thing I want to ask
you is, how extensive an organization was the ASWPL really? How many
members and how active was it? I know generally the numbers that they
claim to have, but I am still not sure whether to emphasize that it was
pretty much a one woman organization run by Jesse Daniels Ames or to
emphasize how many signatures they had and how extensively they really
did reach women missionary societies and women all over the South.
That's kind of a basic, central judgement that I wish I
could come down on.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Well, O.K. This would be my estimate. There were about a half a dozen
women who worked with Mrs. Ames and worked with her very faithfully.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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About half a dozen?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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About a half a dozen. And then the others were more or less peripheral,
they came on call and they did what they were asked to do.
They… but then, I think that happens with most
organizations.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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Yeah.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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But, there were about a half a dozen. Mrs. Tilly was, I guess, the most
outstanding one and I could dredge up all the other names, but I know
about a half a dozen that were very active and they were responsive and
they were on call and it wasn't a matter of her deciding
something and then telling them what she had done. They, it was pretty
much a committee process.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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Uh-huh. How many people on the average would attend annual meetings?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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I couldn't tell you.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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You spoke at some of them.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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I spoke at… I have records of having spoke to two of them. I
have notes on what I said and since I talked with you, I had that sort
of in the back of my mind and looking out for it when I was going
through some papers the other day. And I know I talked to the group
two or three other times in addition to that. But
these two times, I have notes on what I said.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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I have minutes of one of the minutes that you spoke to. Minutes on
your…
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Do you remember what I was talking about?
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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You were talking about, the general subject they were trying to deal with
was whether to concentrate on mob violence or to begin trying to talk
about legal lynchings and the prosecutions of the courts.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Yeah.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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And you gave a really excellent speech about the complexities, I mean
about the legal oppression of blacks. But, even though you were working
in the CIC offices as research director, you didn't have too
much contact with the on-going activities of the ASWPL. Was it really
that autonomous?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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It was fairly autonomous. That's the way Alexander worked. He
let me do about the way I wanted to do. He didn't have me
under his thumb. I hope I did what he wanted me to do, but I did it more
or less on my…well, in other words, it's, if some
program was started, and he said, "Now, you'll take
charge of this." Why, some people don't mean it when
they say that, but he did. And Mrs. Ames carried this on…oh,
he was in and out from the minutes I'm sure, he was talking
now and again. And Mr. Eleazer did too, to a lesser extent. But,
it was somewhat more separate than it might have
been. For the reason that Mrs. Ames was an excessive feminist and she
had a theory that women worked very differently from the way that men
work and of course, this will turn most men off. They just say,
"Well, if that's your way of doing it, just go on
and do it." But,Alexander didn't take that position.
I thought maybe she knew what she was talking about in part, well, she
thought that the women's missionary work and the
women's political work and what not all had to be in a
separate compartment. That it was silly for a man to try to do anything
about a women's organization.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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Why did she think that women…why did she want women to
be…I mean, you could be a feminist and want women to be
integrated into male organizations, or you could be a
segregationist…
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Well, she wanted them to be integrated out. She wanted them separate.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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Why was that? Why did she?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Well, I don't know. It was just…some women are that
way and some women are not that way. And I usually know when I meet a
woman very quickly which way she is going to expect me to go. And I try
to accomodate her, if there's any reason why I
shouldn't…
- JACQUELYN HALL:
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Well, was it partly because that enabled her to exercise leadership. I
mean, it gave her a certain, it gave her a constituency
and power over her own organization.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
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Yes, yes, that was clearly part of it.