Conflict between Ames and Raper over federal anti-lynching testimony
Raper describes a particular instance in which he experienced conflict with Jessie Daniel Ames when he was called to testify on behalf of federal anti-lynching legislation (circa 1940). According to Raper, Ames sought to sabotage his testimony by leaking information to Congressman Tom Connally of Texas. Raper goes on to describe this event as demonstrative of power plays within the Committee on Interracial Cooperation and sites further tensions that existed between Walter White, president of the NAACP, and Ames.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Arthur Raper, January 30, 1974. Interview B-0009-2. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
So, I had my one very serious situation
with her, which I never discussed with her. I never said a word about
it. It was when the Federal Anti-Lynch legislation, the Van Nuys Bill, I
forget what the number of it was. Walter White wanted me to come to
Washington and testify on behalf of it. Did you run into this
somewhere?
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Uh-huh. I just accidentally came across the hearings themselves and read
them. And read your testimony.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Well, isn't that a hell of a thing there. All the bic-bic-bic
bic…the record can't show what actually
happened.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Why, what was it like?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Well, the record…As a matter of fact, it's not in
the transcript of what happened. Because, it was a tremendously more
broken and they actually, whoever wrote it up, tried to make some
sentences out of some of those things. They were interrupted over and
over and over again. But, that isn't the serious thing. Mr.
Connally, when he came in there and looked at me, he thought that he, on
that committee, was representing the southern point of view. And the
southern point of view was that "we didn't want any
interferrence with administrative matters in the southern
states." Particularly on race. O.K. Now, this was his
assumption and this was his operation. And when he
got in there, here was a guy from Atlanta. So, he at once was going to,
somehow or another, get it established that I wasn't a
bonafied southerner. I had connections outside, or something. There had
to be somehow that you could explain this.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Yes, you were "under Walter White's
influence"?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Yeah, I was "owned" by him, or something else, you
know. And by gracious, the further he went, the further he saw that I
was just as southern as he was. And then, when he would just be
flouncing around. When you read that again, watch out for this one
point, and this one point only, when he begins to ask me specific
questions about specific lynchings at specific times and all of those
lynchings were after the time when I had quit making case studies of
lynchings…
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Right.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
…which Mrs. Ames knew, and she was one of the few people,
nobody on that committee knew it. Tom Connally didn't know
it. Tom Connally was in touch with Mrs. Ames and Mrs. Ames sent those
documents up there to him. "You ask Raper now, when he comes
before his committee, you ask him about the lynchings. See, now,
he's an expert on lynchings. He's made case
studies of a hundred lynchings. O.K., ask him about the one that
happened on May 4, 1937 in Danielsville, Georgia", or wherever
it was.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Where the local officials had prevented any action?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Yeah, yeah. "Did I know about that?" "No, Mr.
Connally, I didn't know about that. Ask
me some questions about these hundred that I did investigate from 1930
to 1936. Now, ask me about those, and I can answer you."
"No, no. You're an expert on lynching and this is
1940. I want to know what happened about last year." And he
pulls out another one and pulls out another one and another.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Now, why did she do that?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Because she was so intent on maintaining her point of view. that she
would do anything.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Why did she become…why did her whole justification of her
career and her self image become wrapped up in maintaining this one
position…
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Because that's the area in which she had had status, that was
the area in which she was somebody. She was nobody at the Federal level.
She was somebody when she had to talk to these women in these states and
she had to get in touch with them by telephone or get in touch with them
by telegram and she could do it. But this other she simply could not
weather. In other words, she was big in her area…
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
She had all kinds of rationalizations.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
She was big in her little pond, but she couldn't transcend it.
She didn't transcend it. I suppose that between her and
Walter White, I don't know, but there certainly
wasn't any love between them.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Right.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
And Walter wanted me, after she had done this—and it was
perfectly clear what she had done—he wanted me to make a
statement about it and I said, "No, no, I'm not
going to do it." He says, "We can put that old bitch
in her place." I said, "No, no, no. We
aren't going to do it. I'm not going to have
anything to do with that. And don't you do it either.
You've asked me to come here and I've come. And we
saw what happened and it wasn't what we wanted to happen, but
it's what did happen."
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Did he use those words?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Oh, something about like that. I mean, it wasn't less than
that. Because he was utterly disgusted to see one of what he looked upon
as his prize witnesses—because I was from the south and the
south was without a voice except for Conoally—-practically
without a voice…in that hearing.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
White's career was tied up also in his view of that issue.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
White's career was tied up in the federal thing. Herss was
tied up in the local thing and when they came together, I thought I saw
both situations and was trying to cooperate. I would to continue to put
the major emphasis local, but I think also that the other has to be
taken into consideration. And I had seen, practically everywhere I had
been, people who would have been glad to have been asked questions under
protection, who perjured themselves if they didn't answer
them correctly, they would have answered them correctly because,
"this is my duty." And they
would have done it. But there was no framework in which they could do
it, because these grand juries called them in there and the judge made
all these speeches about what you must do now, and what you must
do…you know, "the law and the sacredness of this and
that and the other." Now, they all knew that the judge
didn't mean that. This was just the ritual that he needed to
go through for the record of the court, in case there was any appeals or
anything else. He did this, but they knew that he didn't mean
for them to indict anybody. So, there we were.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
Well, White did publish that letter that she wrote to Connally. Do you
remember that? In 1940, she wrote a letter to Connally congratulating
him on the success of the filibuster and having defeated the
Anti-lynching League.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Well, yes, I know that. But this is right in harmony with what I knew her
to be and what I knew she did. And this was in harmony with sending that
stuff up there. Matter of fact, I know when the fellow came to the door,
I'm not sure who it was, I'm not sure but that it
was Governor Rivers that brought those sheets of paper to
him…when he switched from this…He was just
bouncing around with all sorts of crazy questions, but then all of a
sudden, here you were just right square on the track of "now
this specific lynching at this specific place and this specific time,
how about that Mr. Expert?"
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
She was criticized so heavily for her stand and at the end of the
forties, she had very few supporters.
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Well, I know, I know.
- JACQUELYN HALL:
-
But she…Did that not bother her?
- ARTHUR RAPER:
-
Well, she was determined.