Limits to Chapel Hill's racial liberalism
In 1940s Chapel Hill, racially progressive residents enjoyed a relatively permissive liberal environment, as long as it did not draw undue public attention. University of North Carolina President Frank Porter Graham filtered this liberal tolerance through to the student body. Jones describes how UNC students' decision to have an integrated concert caused pandemonium among some of the school's administration. Although Graham embraced racial liberalism, others rejected the public and forceful integration of blacks and whites. The testing of segregation's limits resulted in conflict. Jones further describes how his involvement with the Freedom Riders posed a problem for Graham, who preferred moderate methods to obtaining racial change in southern society. Nonetheless, Graham's openness drew the respect of young radicals and older liberals.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Charles M. Jones, November 8, 1976. Interview B-0041. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- JOSEPH HERZENBERG:
-
He talked a great deal about how social change would be brought about
through education and religion. And in the late forties, when he opposed
federal action in the broad area of civil rights, that might have looked
to some as if he were taking a states' rights position. But
you think it's even broader …
- CHARLES M. JONES:
-
I think it had nothing to do with states' rights, because if
you're working in his life you might find places where he
didn't stick to states' rights position. Well, as
a matter of fact, you'll find it when he was in the Senate.
He refused to go along with all the other Southern senators on a vote
against cloture.
- JOSEPH HERZENBERG:
-
Yes.
- CHARLES M. JONES:
-
Do you remember when that thing we think probably lost him his bid for
re-election to the Senate? I think it was an honest conviction of his
that the peaceful way and the gradual way—he felt it had to
be gradual—would be by education and religion. But when he
talked about education, I think he talked about education of the black
as much as of white.
- JOSEPH HERZENBERG:
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But it's bringing blacks up to a level where whites
would…
- CHARLES M. JONES:
-
And educating the whites to a sensitivity to the problem. Now
that's why, in the forties, we got along famously in
ChapellHill by what I call a permissive period in the University. You
could do anything so long as it wasn't made public and it
didn't make a fuss. [unclear]
first year I was in town in 1941 I brought Howard Thurman to speak at
the Presbyterian Church, a black. And Dorothy Maynor gave a concert a
few years later in Memorial Hall, which was fascinating. I hope you can
run up on old news reports. on [unclear]
This caused difficulty for Dr. Frank. The way it was finagled in was to
get some student groups to sponsor the concert for the Fellowship of
Southern Churchmen, of which I was the Chairman at the time and I was
close to so many student groups and they sponsored the concert for the
benefit of the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen. And Dorothy sang for
nothing, gave all the money to the Fellowship of Southern Churchmen. It
was permissible for students, you see, to sponsor things. So Dr. Frank
was approached and given the whole story, nothing held back, that the
concert would be unsegregated, and he says, "Why, of
course." And then his "I get it." One rather
prominent University official—and I'd use his
name, except I can't document it; I can use it to you if you
want it, but I can't document it—
went to Charlotte for a speech before a business club, and
he let it loose that the concert was going to begiven. And immediately
Bob House caught hell for it up here. But we did it. When Dr. Frank said
yes, he meant yes. And he went ahead and did it. In those days I
didn't save correspondence, and I wish I had, but I got a
letter, not meant for me, out of my post office box. And it was
addressed to a state senator or representative, and up in the corner it
said "The Dorothy Maynor Concert Committee." Well, I
was the chairman of the Dorothy Maynor Concert Committee, and I thought
there was some mixup there, so I opened the thing. And it was a letter
from…. I just got seventy-one, and names slip me fairly
quick, but from Clark.
- JOSEPH HERZENBERG:
-
David Clark?
- CHARLES M. JONES:
-
David Clark. There was a letter—I suppose it was meant to be
confidential—from David Clark to members of the N.C. House
and Senate telling about that concert. And he writes about Frank Graham
walking in, big as life, "with some niggers" and
sitting on the seventh or eighth row [Laughter]
and so on. Then he talks about niggers ushering together and
sitting together, and he said, "The stink got so bad that we
had to open the windows." Well, it did get hot, but we had the
windows open to begin with, and one of them fell down during the first
part of it. Anyway, it was the funniest letter I ever read in my life.
But, you see, that was a permissive kind of thing that you hope
won't cause a state-wide rumpus. It's educating,
really. It was right along with his theory. Now when it comes to
something like the '47 thing, testing the interstate
unsegregated bus riding which was almost sure to bring some kind of
conflict I feel like Frank Graham would rather have had that tested not
by a special group like CORE, the FOR, and Bayard Rustin out of state
fellows, but he'd like to have had that
tested in the course of time, naturally. That's his way of
working. I knew the test was coming; I'd helped plan it. But
he didn't know that. There was no reason for him to know it.
We never talked about the thing, even until after it happened. Of
course, I'd never hide anything from him. But he
didn't know I had anything to do with it. He just thought I
had got word that those fellows were in trouble, so "bighearted
me," I go down and do my thing. The truth, though, was I was in
on it from the first, because I was a member of CORE and the FOR. And
when he begins to defend me, one of his defenses is, "Well,
now, Charlie didn't know anything about this. It was just
something he responded to" [Laughter]
[unclear] which wasn't true.
One of the hardest things I had in my life was to go to him and tell him
that he was wrong. He says, "Well, that's all right.
It's all right." He says, "It was perfectly
legal." But I see Dr. Frank, really, as a
stimulator—I call him "the great
encourager." Young people or older people like me, he would
make aware of injustices. You get kind of fired up, and then you do it.
But you're probably doing it the way he wouldn't.
He'd go about it in a different way. But he'd sure
as heck stand by you when you did it, and it was quite a thing. Now this
way of his was reversed once in Congress, when Al Lowenstein, of whom I
think a great deal—and Al told me this, so I know
it's true—when Al Lowenstein was his young
assistants in Congress…. Because he was
[unclear] young competent lawyer. Al was in school here and
then graduated from Yale Law School, I believe. But Dr. Frank
took"his"young men from here as assistants. And when
he was going to vote for cloture that fatal time, Al and some of the
other boys went to Senator Russell, I believe it was, and said,
"Look, can't you persuade Dr.
Frank not to go this way alone?" And you know what Senator
Russell said? "Don't you tamper with Frank
Graham's conscience." But that's a case
of Lowenstein going in reverse (acting as a cautious radical) Al was a
radical, and he went South with the lawyers in the civil rights, see,
but he didn't want to see this strong person lose his votes
from the South and his seat in the Senate. As a matter of
fact—and I don't know if you've run
across this, but it's very interesting—both of
Lowenstein's children, his first child was named Frank Porter
Graham Lowenstein, and his second was named after his sister, Mrs.
[Kate] Sanders. [Laughter] Which shows
what influence he had over young radicals. And I call him "the
great encourager." That's what he meant to
Lowenstein, who later as state senator from N.Y. really broke up the
Johnson public support for fighting the Vietnam War. He was the reason
for Johnson refusing an almost sure second term nomination for
President. Well, if that answers in part some of your questions about
Graham's liberalism. I tend to ramble on too far, but you may
ask further questions about it.