Title:Oral History Interview with Allen Bailey, [date unknown].
Interview B-0066. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007):
Electronic Edition.
Author:
Bailey, Allen,
interviewee
Interview conducted by
Moye, Bill
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Mike Millner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2006
Size of electronic edition: 92 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2006.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text:
English
Revision history:
2006-00-00, Celine Noel and Wanda Gunther revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
edition.
2006-07-20, Mike Millner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of sound recording: Oral History Interview with Allen Bailey,
[date unknown]. Interview B-0066. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series B. Individual Biographies. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (B-0066)
Author: Bill Moye
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Allen Bailey, [date
unknown]. Interview B-0066. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007)
Title of series: Series B. Individual Biographies. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (B-0066)
Author: Allen Bailey
Description: 116 Mb
Description: 23 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on [date unknown], by Bill Moye;
recorded in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series B. Individual Biographies, Manuscripts Department,
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
references. All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as " All em dashes are encoded as —
Interview with Allen Bailey, [date unknown]. Interview B-0066. Southern
Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Bailey, Allen,
interviewee
Interview Participants
ALLEN
BAILEY, interviewee
BILL
MOYE, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
BILL MOYE:
Let me say just a bit about what I'm trying to do myself. I am trying to
write something of a history of Charlotte for the period about 1957 to
1972. There was a big annexation vote in '57 and sort of culminate with
the consolidation.
ALLEN BAILEY:
It wasn't '57. Annexation in '57 and consolidation in '72. Yes, I
see.
BILL MOYE:
And sort of tie several things. . . . it's going to be a lot of getting
into the urban renewal and whatnot. And also involved in that is what's
been happening to the local Democratic party. And also I want to tie in
some of the state . . . some of the relationship between what's been
happening in the city with the rest of the state, maybe with legislation
or with political candidates and whatnot. I certainly appreciate your
taking . . . [Interruption]
Just to sort of establish a little bit of a statewide relationship
initially . . . In '64, you were Mr. Beverly Lake's campaign
manager?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. I participated in his campaign in 1964.
BILL MOYE:
Have you participated in other . . . I believe you were active for Pat
Taylor?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. I participated in the last gubernatorial campaign. I've
participated one way or another, mostly on a statewide basis, in all the
elections since 1960.
BILL MOYE:
That was the first Lake campaign? (B: Yes.) On the local scene . . . Oh,
also on the state scene, is this your . . . have you been president of
the State Baptist Convention? Is that this year?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. I'm president of the Baptist State Convention. I was vice-president
for two years, and I'm now president of the Baptist State
Convention.
BILL MOYE:
Locally, I guess maybe the two big things that I'm interested in is the
consolidation, which I believe you were one of the major figures in
Page 2
that, and at least touch tangentally on the school
busing issue, but I haven't really . . . I've been reading the Observer . . . I started in '57 and I'm now up into
'66, so the more recent period I'm not especially clear on. As far as
local politics, is your orientation more towards state or more towards
local politics?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I participate in support of candidates on the local level. You
know, every time we have an election as far as that's concerned, I make
my financial contribution and work for the local candidates of my
choice. I do this. I'm not, I've not taken office, that is campaign
chairmanships and so forth, of local candidates over the years, but I've
aided and assisted those candidates.
BILL MOYE:
Is this mainly within the local Democratic party, or this also involves
the local nonpartisan city elections?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I'd say it involves the nonpartisan city elections, also.
BILL MOYE:
One thing I'm sort of wondering about . . . is the activity more sort of
a . . . would be with a candidate who is sort of philosophically
agreeable or . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, any candidate I support has got to be kind of philosophically
agreeable with my views . . .
BILL MOYE:
But, I mean . . . this isn't because of some connection with an
organization like the Democratic party . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
No, no, has nothing to do with that.
BILL MOYE:
What types of candidates, maybe, would you be more likely to support? I
mean as opposed say to a downtown candidate . . . I don't exactly know
how to characterize some of the . . . Would it be maybe more of an
anti-establishment sort of some way?
ALLEN BAILEY:
No. That has nothing to do with it, I don't think. I . . . when you try
to put labels on candidates you start getting in trouble, but certainly
I would . . . I'm a fiscal conservative as far as that's concerned, and
I'm not
Page 3
very much in favor of wasting money, ah,
taxpayers' money and putting it where it's not needed or where people
can provide for themselves. I think people ought to be given an
opportunity to provide for themselves and in the event of course where
they cannot, why then they ought to be assisted. But . . . so from that
standpoint, I characterize myself as a fiscal conservative. When it
comes to basic human needs and human rights, individual rights, I'd
probably classify myself as a liberal . . .
BILL MOYE:
The more historical, traditional liberal as opposed to the more recent. .
. .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Right.
BILL MOYE:
Along the line of a sort of fiscal conservatism . . . What was your stand
on urban renewal? Were you in favor?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. I felt like that . . . the urban renewal program had something to
offer to the cities, and here is where individual property rights and
the overall need of the cities and the welfare of the community as a
whole came into conflict. But, so where that happens, one or the other
has to give and here I saw the overall good to the city outweighing the
individual right of property ownership. So I support it and do support
urban renewal, urban renewal projects. Not on a . . . I mean in
situations in which there's a real need for rebuilding and restructuring
the city and a community . . .
BILL MOYE:
What about the use for downtown commercial redevelopment?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think here we get into a grayer area. I think a lot of the people
in our city have felt that here individuals or individual corporations
have prospered as a result of the downtown urban renewal projects that
are proposed and have been undertaken. But I suppose that this would be
true in any city where you have an urban renewal project in the downtown
area. Some businesses that have remained there
Page 4
would
be benefitted. So I don't know if this is a real objectionable feature.
I . . . there may possibly have been conflicts within our city . . .
those in political positions and some of the urban renewal projects
downtown . . . I think that may be what has caused some of the
complaints . . .
BILL MOYE:
One group wants a certain thing done and maybe another group wants
another thing done, ah, something along that line . . . where the civic
center should be, and things along that line?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. Yes. Right.
BILL MOYE:
I reckon you find that most . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
You find that most . . . most places. Like I say, the thing that our
people have complained about or have recently complained about it, some
probably to a greater degree than ordinarily would be the case is that
some of the people who have benefitted downtown are in the political
structure.
BILL MOYE:
Is this, when you say the political structure . . . are we talking about,
say, the Belks?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Oh, yeah. You're talking about the Belks basically. I think that's what
the basic complaint is.
BILL MOYE:
Do you . . . I mean, do you think that one reason that John Belk is in
the political process is in order to . . . or do you think this sort of
comes as a part of . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think it's probably twofold. I think it would naturally come as a
result of urban renewal projects. The Belks are so totally financially
in the city in so many different ways until I think that any program of
upgrading will of course increase their interest, enhance their
interest. I think also that they're not blind to the fact that being in
public office gives one an opportunity to feather his own nest to a
certain degree. I do not say that that's the reason for John's being in
political office. I think that he honestly and sincerely
Page 5
thinks that he has some time and ability to give and
Charlotte has been good to him and he has given a lot. Any mayor of the
city of Charlotte sacrifices a lot.
BILL MOYE:
Takes a lot of time . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Takes a lot of time. I have to say that the mayor has been most diligent
in that respect.
BILL MOYE:
They have so many interests that it's almost impossible to do anything in
Charlotte . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
That's true . . . without affecting their interest.
BILL MOYE:
I was told one time that he would like to have been state highway
commissioner, but the people in Raleigh said "no way" 'cause we can't
buy any right-of-way anywhere without getting close to some of your
property.
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah, that's true.
BILL MOYE:
You said that there had been some resentment about the urban renewal in
the downtown. Is there any sort of organized resistance, somebody like
Albert Pearson or somebody like that . . . I mean, is there any
organized group?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. In the downtown, in the business community downtown, there was some
organized resistance led by Albert Pearson and some of the others. I do
not know that this was resistance against the program as much. I think
it was resistance against, I know it was resistance against some of the
smaller merchants being ejected without compensation or plans made for
their relocation.
BILL MOYE:
They saw the bigger interests as the ones who were profiting (B: Yes.)
and they were, to some extert losing (B: Yes, I think this was true.).
How would you characterize . . . Who makes the decisions in Charlotte?
Is there a power, this is sort of a political science question . . . is
there such a thing as a cohesive power structure, real estate
interests
Page 6
or something like that controls to any
extent?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I'd say there is a strong cohesive real estate lobby, if you will,
or power structure. I do not know that they themselves wield a great
deal of influence. I'm sure they do some. It's always been felt that
here in Charlotte the Chamber of Commerce exercised a greater influence,
I believe, on local government than most people felt that they should.
All of the people that we're talking about, the real estate folks and
people of this nature, by and large, are members of the Chamber of
Commerce, and I think there is probably where the input is . . .
BILL MOYE:
At one time it was said that it was more important if a man really wanted
to do something in Charlotte that he be president of the Chamber . . .
that is was more important to be president of the Chamber than to be
mayor of the city.
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think probably that this still remains true to some extent. I know that
time has been in this city that unless you were a member of that august
body or at least subservient to it that you, your chances of political
success were not as good as otherwise. I have a feeling that, to some
extent that is, the political influence of the Chamber of Commerce. . .
. I have a feeling that it has probably eroded some in the last few
years due to, I think, a more independency of mind of the average voter.
I don't think he any longer relies upon the word from the Chamber or the
word from the media to make up his mind about what he wants to do. I
think he does his own thinking, votes what he wants to more than ever
before.
BILL MOYE:
This may not necessarily be a connection . . . also, I wonder . . . there
are more people living in the surburbs, and they've got shopping centers
nearby, and they don't see the need for the rebuilding downtown or
whatever.
Page 7
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. You have this. Matter of fact, a lot of people contend, you know,
why spend these millions downtown when the people don't even come
downtown anymore to do their shopping . . . do it in the suburbs. I
think there's a lot to be said for that. By and large, our downtown
community is as it is being rebuilt, is being rebuilt to where an
office, institutional type (M: Those big bank buildings?), yes, complex,
more than shopping center, more than a shopping area.
BILL MOYE:
I've noted on just a couple of occasions where you have represented. . .
. Let me ask you, how much time? (B: All you want. I'll give you all you
want.) Now this was several years ago and, like I said, I haven't read
recent years, represented groups, neighborhood groups or whatever,
fighting zoning changes and things like this. Is this . . . I mean, do
you get this business, I mean, because you're a lawyer or is there. . .
. Do you enjoy this sort of thing, sort of fighting city hall?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think . . . I never have really been a joiner. I went for twenty
years and the only thing I was a member of in the city of Charlotte,
besides the bar association offices and so forth that I have . . . that
I belong to in connection with my profession, was First Baptist Church,
so I'm not a (M: That's the big downtown . . . ), yeah. So I'm not a
joiner as such, and I never was much for inside power politics through
the Chamber or through any other organization. So I guess I could say
that I got a great deal of joy out of, you know, taking on the power
structure from time to time as the representative of the so-called
classes or people. I guess this is the way it came about.
BILL MOYE:
Do you see yourself, to some extent, attempting to represent . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think I have seen myself from time to time as representing an interest
that was not represented in the power structure and giving a voice to
them in the community.
Page 8
BILL MOYE:
I am wondering, too . . . I was just reading over some notes last night,
this doesn't necessarily follow at all from what we were talking about
but . . . The comment was made that the firemen are an important
political factor.
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. I'd say, you know, any group that constitutes a few hundred in
number in a city, if they're really joined together in a cohesive group,
have a tremendous amount of political impact. Firemen have had the
capability of organizing themselves into a very sophisticated political
group over the years.
BILL MOYE:
They've tried on occasion to unionize . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
They've tried on occasion to unionize. That's right, and of course,
there's always been some problems there. But, even so, they have
political influence to wield and have very effectively used it from time
to time.
BILL MOYE:
What about the police? Are they in a different situation?
ALLEN BAILEY:
They're a little bit different situation. Of course, they never . . . it
appeared to me, they never have been able to quite organize themselves
in the same way, make sacrifices. They're sacrifices to make by
individuals whenever groups start getting together and wielding
political power . . . Individual considerations have to go out the
window for the benefit of the whole. It doesn't seem to me that the
police have been able to very effectively do that as has the fire
department over the years in the city of Charlotte. I don't . . . I
think the fire department has had the genuine interest in political
affairs to a great extent and become more involved than the police
department. I think this is probably because of the nature of law
enforcement over the years. They've been supposed to have kept
themselves detached from politics as such.
BILL MOYE:
And, then, just in the period that I've read, there have been . . .
Page 9
There was a big rukus with Littlejohn one time,
there was a big rukus with Ford at one time . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
This was all local, purely local politics.
BILL MOYE:
The City Council . . . are they trying to keep their hands to some extent
on . . . I know there was talk one time of a change in the charter that
would put all the police stuff under the Civil Service Board,
applications and whatnot, and the Chamber didn't go along with that . .
. a couple of big hassles about when . . . when Littlejohn retired, or
was retired or whatever . . . and appointing a new police chief . . .
then when Hord retired, when Hord was appointed, I guess, after Jesse
James was chief. Is this because the Council tries to, wants to keep a
handle of some sort?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think the Council feels that they are the governing body of the
city and that most of the city functions, including police and so forth,
has to be kept connected to a body that is responsive to the people.
And, I think there's a lot of merit in that. Anytime you set a segment
of your government aside with nobody running it, that is, responsive to
the people, you've got problems.
BILL MOYE:
As I recall . . . read a note that when Jesse James was hired, about '60
or '61 . . . there was a lot of sentiment for appointing instead Ernest
Selvy, I believe. And, I believe, according to the newspapers, you were
to some extent involved. I believe presented a petition or something
along that line . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. I've always been one that if there is ability within an arm of the
government where there's a promotion that's available that promotion
from within is a great incentive for people to perform better in their
services (M: Helps the morale . . . ). Helps the morale. I don't think
top positions ought to be out of the reach of people in any department.
And, I felt like we had here in the city people who could,
Page 10
with proper chance, fulfill that position. That was
probably the reason that I took the position that I did.
BILL MOYE:
That doesn't fit into this sort of taking on the power structure or
taking on somebody in city hall?
ALLEN BAILEY:
No. I don't really think that I would . . . that would necessarily go
together. I have been, over the years, a great supporter of law
enforcement, and I just like to see an opportunity given to those down
in the ranks to progress, and that's all that is, you know as a . . . I
didn't want it necessarily to be a political position as such without
reach of the rank and file of those who assert themselves and gain the
ability and experience to occupy the office. I don't want it to be out
of their reach, strictly a political plum for somebody.
BILL MOYE:
Are you . . . Do you maintain membership or whatever in . . . Is there an
ongoing political organization on the local scene or is it still sort of
ad hoc, issue-oriented?
ALLEN BAILEY:
It's a kind of ad hoc, issue-oriented type of situation.
BILL MOYE:
I've just . . . There's certain . . . Seems like every time there's an
issue there's a group, but the group doesn't seem to carry forward.
ALLEN BAILEY:
No. That's right.
BILL MOYE:
Now, sort of to change a little bit. I believe you have said at one time
that maybe the Boy Scouts are probably as influential as the local
Democratic party. Something like that. Indicating that the party is
rather inept. [unclear] . . . so much
splintering (maybe?).
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, it is. There really is no Democratic party. Whenever I speak of
party, I'm talking about organization as such in Mecklenburg County.
Now, there're a great number of people who are interested in politics
and interested in the Democratic party. But there is no one, or has been
no one at the helm of the Democratic party who either has the ability or
the desire, he may have the desire but doesn't have
Page 11
the ability or vice versa . . . to pull the groups together, work toward
a common goal. That is the way that it has been. That's the way that it
is.
BILL MOYE:
Who do you see as . . . pull the groups together . . . Who are the
competing groups? I presume there must be sort of a conservative side
and something of a more liberal side . . . Is it that crystallized, or
is it sort of a nebulous . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I don't think it's necessarily that crystallized. I think this about the
failure of the Democratic party in Mecklenburg County. I think that
there is, and has been, a great difference between the Democratic party
on the national level and the Democratic party, or the thinking of the
people on the state level. I think, by and large in Mecklenburg County,
those that have been within the framework of the Democratic party, who
are it's so-called leaders, have destroyed the Democratic party by
trying to follow the philosophy of the national Democratic party to
which the people on the local level cannot be led, would not be led.
And, instead of remaining loyal to the Democratic party, they have
become disorganized, disenchanted . . . little or no faith in the
leadership of the Democratic party. Many, many of them, all you have to
do is look at the vote, find out how many Republicans are registered
here and find out how many Republicans vote. (M: A lot more Republicans
vote in the general election . . . ) Than there are registered,
certainly. So, there's no question but what a tremendous amount of
Democrats are and have been voting Republican. Now, you can criticize
those people all that you want to. You can say that the Republicans
register Democratic. I've heard that! (M: So they can vote in the
primary?) So they can vote in the primary. Well, that's not true. There
are people who would like to be loyal to the philosophies of the
Democratic party that they knew and that does not exist anymore.
Page 12
BILL MOYE:
It's moved away?
ALLEN BAILEY:
It's moved away from them, and they do not and have not followed it. They
have found the Republican party and its candidates more palatable, and
for that reason, they've been voting Republican. They have seen the
Republican candidate as more representative of their views than they
have the Democratic candidates. It's just that simple.
BILL MOYE:
Who are some of these people that you see as pushing the national line?
Are they . . . I presume there are whites as well as blacks in the part
of the party that push . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. Well, 'course, all you have to do is go back and find out who the
leadership of the Democratic party, the so-called leadership of the
Democratic party has been over the last several years. I hate to name
names and so forth, but that is in fact the case.
BILL MOYE:
The primary in '64 seems to have been quite a . . . perhaps a turning
point. I'm wondering, maybe both locally and statewide in a way because
you had a fairly liberal candidate, you had a pretty much
middle-of-the-road, and you had a fairly conservative, and it seemed to
sort of split the party pretty much. I know here in Mecklenburg Mr.
King, Ray King, who had been chairman of the Democratic party, (B:
Quit.) resigned that and ran the Preyer campaign.
ALLEN BAILEY:
Which was a . . . you know . . . In so far as the Democratic party was
concerned is . . . I think the party was forgotten. Any man that . . .
elected to leadership in a party and then resigns in the middle of an
election . . . to take on a candidate, in my humble judgment, forsakes
his party. I think that, as much as anything else, struck the death
knell of the Democratic party in this county, and it's been going down
ever since.
BILL MOYE:
I'm wondering, I just happened to notice, in the paper last night, Mr.
Charles Lowe, who was chairman of the County Commission has announced
Page 13
that he would offer for the party chairmanship . .
. . ah, is it on Saturday, the local convention? Is this a good sign in
any way in your estimation?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think it's a sign of frustration on the part of Charlie. I think
Charlie sees the very same thing that I have seen, that the Democratic
party in this county is giving no leadership, and he's frustrated by
what he has seen and is seeing. I'm sure that he would like to remain in
the wings, he'd rather be doing some of the pushing rather than the
leading. But, I think his candidacy is just brought about by the simple
fact that he sees the job not being done. And, this is the way that I've
become involved in so many things. You know, I found out a long time ago
that if you felt strongly about something, you wanted the job done,
you'd better do it yourself. (M: Not count on somebody else?) Not count
on somebody else, `cause chances are they're not going to get it done.
This is the reason I was involved in the liquor issues and the
consolidation issues and other issues. I think Charlie sees the very
same thing that brought me, you know, that compels me to get involved. I
think the same thing is compelling him to get involved in the Democratic
party because he loves the Democratic party, and, yet, he sees there is
no organization as such. I think he's genuinely interested in trying to
bring it together.
BILL MOYE:
Do you think there's a possibility of his doing that?
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think there's a possibility of Charlie doing it. I don't know that, you
know, he has really any ax to grind himself other than just simply one
of service because I don't know of anything that Charlie would want. He
held local offices here for a number of years. I'm satisfied that if he
wanted to be elected to some offices that he could be. So, hopefully, it
is just a real desire on his part to put together an organization. Now,
that's what it's going to take. As long as . . . I won't say as long as
. . . If we have people heading up
Page 14
organizations
that are using those organizations for their own selfish interests, then
you have what we have right now . . . nothing.
BILL MOYE:
You seem to be, maybe, indicating that maybe some of the previous
leadership maybe was using this sort of as a stepping stone perhaps in
their own political career?
ALLEN BAILEY:
`Course I see it as their having aspired to a position of leadership that
required and demanded such . . . demanded substantial amounts of their
time and their talent if that organization was going to succeed, and
they have not given it to it. Yet, they have held on to the position and
in the interest, I suppose, of speaking for the organization.
BILL MOYE:
Well, let me ask you this. Is it a question of some other organization
maybe getting the best leadership in the community . . . the Republican
party gets the best young men . . . the United Appeal gets the best
young men? Or, is it that most of the young folks are so tied up in
making money that ah'm . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
No. I don't think that's the case. I think there are innumerable people
in this county who have substantial ability and are willing to give the
time, but you cannot have an effective organization which requires a
broad spectrum of the community working together to achieve certain
goals and have a small group of people maneuvering that organization for
their own selfish interest. You can't have it. It won't work. Over the
years, people who have been interested in the Democratic party and who
have given to it have seen decisions being made without consultation
with them or others who had been working for it in behalf of the party.
When you can't have some input at decision-making times, why, then you
find very little reason to fight for the party when it needs you.
BILL MOYE:
Some people characterize sort of part of the problem both at the state
and the local level within the Democratic party as a situation
Page 15
where the more liberal candidate can win the
precinct meetings or whatever and get the primary nomination, but then
come November, he's sort of used up what he had. In other words, that
bloc can get him the nomination, but he can't deliver on the . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think that's exactly what's been taking place in North Carolina.
There has been enough liberal support . . . unless there is a real
issue-oriented campaign with maybe one or two strong conservative
issues, if that's the case, then chances are you are able to nominate a
Democratic nominee with that strong issue. But, it seems to me that
there has just been enough liberal support in the primaries, by and
large, to nominate the more liberal of the candidates, and, yet, when it
comes to the fall (M: The more conservative Democrats and the
Republicans . . . ) combining together.
BILL MOYE:
I'm wondering if it sort of fits in the same thing. If you mount an
argument that maybe the media campaign that Skipper Bowles had in his
primary in '72 and maybe if you say that most of the newspapers
generally gravitate towards the more liberal candidate . . . Do you see
that as being . . . maybe they are able to sell themselves, but . . . to
a certain bloc of people with this media campaign. They're sort of nice
looking men, and they come across well on t.v., but maybe when it comes
down to mixing with the people or something . . . When they come down
off the studio stage or something to shake hands with people and really
get down to the gut issues . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
No. I think it's more of a . . . There is that liberal bloc within the
state, and I think it's a powerful minority. Of course, in any campaign,
you're going to have a certain amount of fallout from the other side go
with that group for selfish reasons and first one reason and then
another. With the . . . as you've indicated, with media gravitating to
that side basically, most of the time and projecting that candidate
Page 16
as a palatable individual, his chances of success
are good, but then when you come to the fall, you know, I think the
people just naturally start weighing the two candidates who are left and
say which one of these really thinks like I do or more nearly represents
my views.
BILL MOYE:
And, now, if we take that the state party is badly splintered, which it
does . . . in fact, if there is a state organization . . . part time
most of the time as a political organization is sort of now
(unintelligible).
ALLEN BAILEY:
There is no state organization except that which is, ah, exists on the
local level. Then if doesn't one exist in a hundred . . . in the county,
there is no state organization. The state organization is just a
culmination of what each county's doing, and if each county doing what
Mecklenburg County's doing, there isn't any organization in the state of
North Carolina.
BILL MOYE:
Now, is there any possibility that Robert Morgan can put some of the
pieces back together on the state level . . . bring in . . . Obviously,
to some extent, he represents a more conservative bloc in a way. He's
lately been appealing, to some extent, with the consumer activity
possibly to the . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yes. I think Robert Morgan has the potential to do this. I don't think
this is something that any candidate or any individual can do over a
short period of time. In order to build the kind of organization that
the Democratic party has always been famous for, you're going to have to
start at the local level, and it's going to have to be done precinct by
precinct and county by county. This requires leadership from the local
level.
BILL MOYE:
O.K. If we can sort of skip around a bit . . . If we could get back to
the local level to some extent, I guess the one major issue which I'm as
interested in as any other is the consolidation attempt, which I
understand is coming up possibly again. There's been talk about
Page 17
again, possibly some negotiations between the city
leadership and the county leadership. From what I gather as to your
comments during the consolidation campaign for the vote, it was sort of
the radical, this radical change in the whole structure of the
government . . . the county-wide council and the district
representation. You seem to kind of favor a continuation of functional
consolidation rather than a radical shift (B: I do.). As I recall, one
of your dissatisfactions with the charter was that you thought the mayor
. . . under that there would be a strong mayor (B: No question about
that. Yeah.). I'm wondering . . . It was, what, a mayor that was going
to be fulltime with a salary and all as opposed to a, theoretically
anyway, a parttime mayor (B: Umumph.). There are those who argue, this
is sort of a political science argument again, that a fulltime . . .
making the mayorship fulltime would perhaps allow somebody perhaps from
a lower economic status, or open up the mayorship, to an extent, to
other people who may have the ability to do it but they don't have the
resources where they can go into the theoretically parttime job as it is
now set up . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think it'd do that. I don't recall exactly what position I took.
I know I took a position against a strong mayor because my view was it
was consolidating too much political power within one man, as I saw it
back then. I suppose it was just one of those things you grabbed on to
as you went along, you know.
BILL MOYE:
I'm wondering, too, sort of the same argument can be made for the
district representation. I believe one of your charges was that this
would be going back to the old ward system. (B: There's no question
about it.) Some I think would argue maybe that those who . . . I mean it
does . . . It seems that most of the leadership for the Council and for
the county, too, comes out of right back over in the Southeast
Page 18
here. This would open up . . . I mean, if you're
dissatisfied to some extent with city government
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
ALLEN BAILEY:
and perhaps . . . you mentioned groups being dissatisfied with urban
renewal and the downtown redevelopment or whatever. Some would argue
that this would give them more of an input into these decisions . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, of course, that was the argument . . . the other argument. On the
other side of that is simply that the man should not be eliminated from
serving the city with the ability, irrespective of what, which side of
town he lives on. As far as I'm personally concerned, it doesn't make
any difference to me whether that man is from the east, west, north, or
south. If he's the man the citizens think is most capable of serving
them, well that's . . . where he lives is immaterial to me.
BILL MOYE:
Some people perhaps would argue that maybe a lot of people were against
the Charter because they were, not only were they satisfied perhaps. . .
. or at least not sufficiently dissatisfied with the present condition,
but under the new Charter there would be other groups brought in,
perhaps more lower-class, if there is that type group . . . lower-class
white group in Charlotte. There would be more black representation, and
maybe that was a major factor in the . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, I think the people . . . on that issue, expressed themselves as I
just have. The man most capable of governing ought to govern. Where he
lives or what color he is should not govern whether or not he is in fact
a representative of the people. Now, obviously, under the system
proposed, it was the old ward system all over again, and, you know, we
went through that and saw the corruption involved in that thing many,
many years ago. Anybody who's a student of history will know that it
didn't function, and I don't know of any reason to believe it'll be more
functionable today than it was then.
BILL MOYE:
Let me ask you . . . This is off the subject of consolidation a little
Page 19
bit, but . . . The issue of partisan local
politics seems to keep popping up to some extent. There was mention of
it in about '65 in a charter revision. There was some at least
discussion of it. I believe in the last legislature, I believe Craig
Lawing introduced and I think the bill passed to allow partisan local
city elections. Are you in favor of that, or do you see the same type of
thing? In other words, if a man's a Republican and he's the most
qualified, you know, . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I don't . . . It would seem to me that it would have been wise to
continue to have our municipal elections nonpartisan. What was the
reasoning behind changing it, I was not in on it. I don't know. I
suspect it was the fact that the local Republican party felt its muscle
and would like for its candidates to run (M: As Republicans?). As
Republicans. The argument is made that this would tend to give you a
stronger party organization if you had your local elections partisan,
and I think maybe this might well be true. I can't conceive of why a
Democrat in this city would want a partisan election (M: The way things
are going now.). Yeah. With the Democratic party as it is.
BILL MOYE:
Let me ask, along that very same line, talking about the partisan . . .
The News apparently seemed to think the
anti-consolidation campaign . . . that the Republicans were very much
involved in the anti-Charter campaign. Is that a valid observation?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, there were Republicans involved, but I recall the night that a
group of us met. There was, in addition to some Republicans, there was
Ray King who had been chairman of the Democratic party and who actually
gave his support and so forth in the effort to defeat the Charter. He
later withdrew it under local pressure and stayed out in left field,
didn't do anything. So, he certainly was not a Republican. I can recall
people like Bill Pop who's a strong Democrat. Myself. You know, I think
that it's unfair to say that it was a Republicanorganized
Page 20
defeat of the Charter `cause that really isn't true. It was
a . . . It could not have been defeated as decisively as it was unless
it had been a cohesion of Democrats and Republicans. That was the way
the organization was put together.
BILL MOYE:
Do you think . . . You just mentioned something about Mr. King being
under some pressure. Do you think it would be fair to say that,
generally speaking, Republicans were more likely to be opposed and
Democrats were more likely to be in favor, in any way?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Consolidation? I really don't think that you can divide it along those
lines.
BILL MOYE:
I was just wondering . . . You know, the argument that the Republicans
might be stronger in the county, and maybe that was a factor in the
tremendous county . . . (B: I don't think . . . ) You don't see much. .
. .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think the county voted against it because the foresaw it as not being
in their best interest. As it obviously was not.
BILL MOYE:
Back to a comment you made while ago when you were talking about, I
believe it was the strong mayor, you said that was something we caught
as we went along, or something along that line. The News seemed to think that the "anti-" leadership were better
practical politicians, and the Observer, which I
presume was very strongly in favor of the consolidation, they used a
phrase, something about the "emotional strategy of Mr. Bailey". How
much, would you say, of the "anti-" campaign was a real philosophical
opposition to, say, big government and how much of it was sort of
issue-oriented, sort of . . . You didn't want it, but you sort of pulled
all the stops out?
ALLEN BAILEY:
Well, this is, . . . this is exactly what we did. There is some
(unintelligible) of truth in everything they say there. You see,
whenever we began the organizing to lead, I'd rather put it on the basis
of leading a discussion of the merits and demerits of consolidation,
Page 21
everything that I'd seen in the press indicated
that the overwhelming majority of the people were in favor of
consolidation. I don't know whether you've run across that or not, but
here, at one time, I think it was felt that there was at least a 70 or
more per cent of the people . . .
BILL MOYE:
I've read some discussion that sort of indicated that initially, when it
was a sort of nebulous thing, a lot of people were in favor of it, but
later on, when you got down to the . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah, that's the point, yeah. Before we started discussing the specific
document, there was a percentage of somewhere between 70 and 80 per cent
of the people who were in favor of consolidation. We had been
brainwashed in this county about the need for consolidation for years
and years before it ever came, through the press. We didn't have a
substantial period in order to get organized and do all the things you
have to do in order to conduct a campaign. It's well, you know, to go
about it in a methodical way and this kind of thing, educate people
slowly and so forth, if you've got that kind of time. But, if you're
working in a short framework of time, you know, you have to arouse the
emotions of people as you get to them because you're not going to get
back to them, chances are. Of course, this is done in all political
campaigns, work on the emotional aspect of people and on their reasoning
and philosophy and everything else.
BILL MOYE:
One of the arguments, or one of the factors that is pointed as a reason,
to some extent, for defeat of the Charter was that your side was better
able to develop the emotional issues, and maybe the pro forces were
talking about "we need more efficiency in government", "need better
planning", which, you know, are nice sounding phrases but don't . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
We did develop the emotional issue. We developed the issue that concerned
the people, that got to the people.
Page 22
BILL MOYE:
Let me ask you this. How . . . Now, "the issue that got to the people",
how much of that was the race factor? I mean, that apparently comes up
in district representation, in the board . . . What was it? There was a
piece in the Charter that would . . . a fair representation guarantee
without respect to . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think you would have to say that all those things played an underlying
part in the defeat of the Charter. Who can say what, I don't know. I
know that they were never openly discussed or debated, but how much, you
know, the people thought about those kinds of things is something of a
different thing, but I'm sure they must have given thought . . .
BILL MOYE:
Were some of the phrases maybe . . . I mean, if we say that we're going
back to the old ward system, in a way, perhaps, under the ward system,
the blacks would be guaranteed a person on the Council, and maybe that
was one of the reasons for using that phrase . . . to make people aware
of that possibility without really coming out and saying, you know, "we
don't want blacks on the council" . . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
I think it was a way of saying that you don't want anybody on the city
council who's not qualified to govern. I don't care where he lives or
where he comes from. Now that may encompass a lot of other things, too.
But, that was the way that it was sued. You can put any kind of
interpretation on a phrase you want to, and, as long as the people
interpret it to your advantage, I don't suppose you're opposed to that.
That's the way it is.
BILL MOYE:
Let me ask you this . . . I presume, then, whether you would support a
new charter attempt would entirely depend on the type of charter that
was eventually presented? I mean, I believe you were quoted at the time
as saying you would like to see a new charter commission. This was
immediately after that election in '71.
Page 23
ALLEN BAILEY:
Yeah. I think there are advantages in consolidating certain facets of our
government if not all of them. Now, what else goes along with that is a
different question. As to whether we want to change our form of
government, that's an entirely different issue. What we were doing, we
were not only consolidating but changing our form of government, and
that's what I was opposed to.
BILL MOYE:
That pretty much covers what I had in mind to ask. Is there anything that
. . .
ALLEN BAILEY:
As far as I know, none.
BILL MOYE:
Well, I appreciate your taking the time and talking to me. I enjoyed
it.
ALLEN BAILEY:
When does your book . . . You say you're writing a history, is this in
connection with a doctorate or some other . . .