Interstate train travel and racial discrimination
Turner discusses what train travel was like for an African American in the early twentieth century. In offering two anecdotes regarding discrimination in interstate travel (both describing incidents from travel in the North), Turner sheds light on the nuanced practices of racism during the 1930s. (She identifies one incident as having taken place in 1936; the other incident likely occurred around the same time.) In addition, Turner describes how she reacted to discriminatory treatment, highlighting ways in which African Americans could subtly challenge discrimination.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Viola Turner, April 17, 1979. Interview C-0016. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
You ran into all sorts of things.
I've had a few unpleasant experiences, too.
- WALTER WEARE:
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In connection with traveling?
- VIOLA TURNER:
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Yes. Well, two that stand out in my mind at this moment. The first time I
went to Chicago, I had gotten accommodations from here with no real
problem. By this time, it wasn't any great problem to get
accommodations. I don't think you could always walk right up to the
ticket window and get them, depending on who's waiting on you and that
sort of thing. But if you called, and you knew somebody back there, as I
did now: I knew Mr. Bobbitt real well, from Mr.
Merritt's knowing him. And sometimes I'd call. Well, at any rate, I had
accommodations. I had no problem there. But when I got to Cincinnati? I
don't remember, but overnight. The next morning, I got ready to go to
breakfast and I get up and I get washed up and I go on back to the
dining car. And this is the only time this ever happened to me and I
don't think I ever felt anything any more keener than I did this. When I
got to the door of the dining room, the first person who saw me—I don't
know if he was the white man who was in charge of the whole dining car;
I don't know what his position was—he looked, and he saw me standing
there, and he just on away, like he didn't see me. I really didn't think
too much about that. I didn't recall having seen a white person in that
particular, what looked as if he may have been sort of
, or something like that. So I didn't think much
of that. So I stood. About this time the dining car porter passes the
white man going back, when he goes this way. And when he looked up and
saw me, the expression on his face was something that I will never
forget. [laughter] He looked at me as if
he were saying, "What on earth are you doing here?" It
was one of those sort of [expression], and then followed quickly with,
"What on earth will I be able to do with you?"
Well, I am floored. Because I have travelled enough now, that I have
never run into that sort of . . .and never with a
Negro porter. Usually when you run into one of them, they always look as
though they're saying, "Thank God, at last you've been able to get
decent accommodations." And you'd have the hardest time trying to even
give them a tip. Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, on that same trip, the
man who was the porter on the train, if he dusted me once, he dusted me
up and down, all over. Just little things, like, "Oh, I'm so glad to see
you. Are you having a nice trip?" Just little, you know. I got off and
he had been so nice to me, I decide I'm going to be r-e-a-l sporty,
you know. Never did know exactly how I was supposed
to tip, you know. But I'm going to give him a nice tip. So I folded up a
paper dollar—that was some money for me. That was the World Fair time,
Chicago World Fair.
- WALTER WEARE:
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1936?
- VIOLA TURNER:
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That's a long time ago. Usually what a dollar was with me, a quarter was
my speed. But for this man, I folded this up, so it wouldn't show so
much; I'm just going to slip it to him. With the last brush-down, my
little suit he brushed down. "Oh no, dear. Oh, no, no, no. It's been a
pleasure having you on here. No." I said, "But you've been so. . ." "Oh,
no, no, no." He just folded my little money back. "No, dear. It's been a
pleasure having you on here. It makes me very happy to see you here. And
I hope you enjoy your trip all the way." He did more for me than that,
later, however, but I had no idea.
Now, going back to this waiter, who looked like he wished there were same
way he could have just waved me completely into oblivion, or somewhere.
So I just stood. Of course by this time, I have fought discrimination so
many times and so many ways, that I could've just froze and stay and
look at anything and anybody, you know, just look. So I'm just standing,
looking at him. So he stood there, and then finally he gave me a sign,
and he led me over to a table where, with all due respects to the
lady—and I apologize a thousand times for this, anytime I think of it,
because I could be so wrong—but she looked like the most hardened
prostitute. You know that vision you can get about a hardened woman who
has had all the hard knocks? Well, that's what she looked like. Painted
to the gills. Hard lines under here. Dyed hair. He set me there. The
only thing I can think of that he figured: he looked at her and said,
"Well, you should be willing to accept anything from anybody", and he
set me down. So that's the way I set down at a table.
- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
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Was she a white woman?
- VIOLA TURNER:
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Yes, she was white. But she looked like life had dealt her every raw deal
in the world, and she was fighting it to death. Painted and dyed, and
everything. But, you know, that's why I say everytime I think of her, or
think of that experience, in the back of my mind, I'm offering
apologies. Because she was the nicest thing that ever happened to me in
an unpleasant situation. She didn't look shocked. She didn't look like
anything had happened. She just looked up from what she was having and
said, "Good morning. I hope you're having a pleasant trip." And I said,
"Thank you", and sat down. I ordered toast, orange juice, coffee. I
couldn't eat the toast. I sipped about one sip of the orange juice and
about half of the cup of coffee. I was filled right up to here. I don't
know how that man destroyed me, but he destroyed me! I guess the first
thing: I didn't expect it from one of my own. And then the expression on
his face: "What in the world are you doing here? How
dare you come here on my car!" But she was just as
pleasant as she could be, and she tried her best to make me feel
comfortable, evidently. Because, you know, she was just as pleasant, but
normally; she didn't seem to be acting unnatural. But just a nice
person. And I tried my best to respond. But all the time, within me, I'm
apologizing to her: oh, I am so sorry to have judged you to be what you
look like you are. But I always believed that that's what
he read there, when he put me with this woman. But she really
saved my day for me. I would have loved to have helped her look a little
different [laughter] if I could have, as I
thought about her. So, that was, I guess, really the worst experience I
ever had.
But the nearest to that was coming down from New York. I had gone over to
see relatives in Plainfield. And instead of taking my train out of New
York, I picked it up in Newark, which is just about ten minutes out of
New York. And in that short time, some smart aleck
conductor or the porter had put a white man in my reserved seat. See, I
wasn't pulling out of New York, and they had put him there. Probably
came in with no extra space, or something, I don't know, but he was in
my seat. I didn't recognize it for that. Didn't think about it. Because,
what was happening: if you're riding backwards, you're in the upper, I
think that's the way it was. And if you're riding forward, you're in the
lower. Well, at any rate, we were sitting opposite each other. So one of
us was in the upper and the other was in the lower. But the lower was my
reservation, and however we were seated, he was seated in mine. I don't
know whether I was seated in his, or seated in somebody else's. But I
was aware of the fact that I was not in the right seat. But I didn't say
anything. Then, after some little time, I made some comment, probably to
the ticket agent when he came in, or something. But whatever was said at
the time, I didn't get any satisfaction. But I didn't get enough of an
objection to think that I had any problem. So I went along with it while
thinking I didn't have any problem at all. After all, there was nothing
so serious about this. It was pretty early in the afternoon. So, I don't
know what happened that did give me some apprehension, but there was
something wrong. And it was something that was not about to get
corrected. And it may have been the attitude of the passenger, I don't
remember that part now. But what I do remember is my solution to the
problem. So I waited. It seems to me we had gotten into Delaware, but we
hadn't been riding too long. Maybe an hour. So I called the porter. I
said, "I'd like to lie down, so please make down my bed right away."
[laughter] And that's when the
commotion started. They started making explanations to me, you know,
about the time they made them down, when you got further into Delaware,
when you did this and when you did that. And I just kept being adamant,
"I don't feel too well; I want to lie down; and I'd like to get it done
right away." And I didn't ever give an inch. I just
kept on. So finally they worked it out. I don't know what the heck they
did. There was a lot of, you know, coming back and forth, and couldn't
do it and couldn't do it, and I kept holding my point. "I'll have to see
someone, because I must lie down. And I insist on doing it right away. I
hate to make a commotion about it, but I have my reservation, and you
know I have a reservation. So what are you going to do about it?" I just
kept throwing the thing back in their laps. I wasn't as brave as I was
acting. I was scared to death [laughter] .
They were bigger than I was; I didn't know what they would do. But
finally they made down my bed and they made my friend, who evidently was
planning to sit there and hold my seat; he wasn't planning to move. They
had to make some other arrangements.
- WALTER WEARE:
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They moved him on out?
- VIOLA TURNER:
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Yes. They moved him somewhere. They made my bed and he wasn't there.
- WALTER WEARE:
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You had travelled, though, in the deep South, where there wasn't railroad
service, and you'd have to be overnight and look for accommodations.
That's a whole different world, isn't it?
- VIOLA TURNER:
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Well, I would guess so. But I didn't ever have that experience, I don't
think.