Lobbyists' role in Raleigh
White discusses his work as a lobbyist. If all lobbyists approach their job like White, they are an omnipresent and influential force in state politics. He describes also politicians' gall in asking for donations from his employer, and his concern that denying these requests puts his favored legislation in jeopardy.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Thomas Jackson White Jr., March 14, 1986. Interview C-0029-2. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
That was something of a digression, an interesting one I think, but we
were talking about your lobbying work for the tobacco industry. What
sorts of things do you do as a lobbyist for them, as a representative of
them?
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
I guess the thing to do would to talk about my responsibilities to my
client. In the first place, you need to know what's going on
and you need to know from sound sources what's going on. You
need always to be aware of what's going on. You need to be
abreast of any changes that are coming on and you have to be alert to
the filing of any bill affecting tobacco and analyze it, and of course
you report it to your client immediately, and you
see who the introducers or signers of that bill are, and you may wish to
go to see them.
A lot of people sign bills maybe because the bill is being introduced by
a good friend without taking the time to analyze the bill because the
legislators don't have that kind of time here in the thick of
things. So you need to see where that bill is coming from and try to
evaluate its chances. And, of course, you report everything to your
clients. Then you go to see members of the General Assembly and state
whatever position you have about the bill and you ask them either to
support the bill or to kill it, whichever would be desirable. You attend
every committee meeting that time will permit which could have any
effect on that bill. And you always want to know how the presiding
officers feel about the bill. There are lots of things you
don't do like you don't harangue people; you
don't take too much of their time; you don't bust
in on a legislator when he'd dictating his morning mail.
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
So knowing sort of the routine of how a legislature works, I would assume
from all of your experience with that, makes you more effective. You
know when and where to approach somebody.
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
I've lived a long time and I have come to the conclusion that
almost everything that any of us has to deal with is a matter of either
economics or timing, or both. You can think about that a long time and
you won't get away from the truth of that. Of course,
there's a book in the Bible which says there is a time for
everything; I don't know which one it is but
I've read it. A time for this and a time for
that. It takes some men longer than others to discern which is the best
time to do and which is the best time not to do and the things to do and
the things not to do. Nowadays, about the first thirty days of every
session down here, the poor legislators can't get their work
done for having to go to all these damn parties that are given for them
by organizations.
They don't make contributions to any legislators. They pay me
a salary. And yet I have even legislators come to me for contributions.
And they'll come to me for contributions to pay off the debt
of some politician that ran and didn't win. You'd
be amazed at what they ask for. I was going down a hall in a hotel in
which there was a meeting going on, a group assembled to raise money for
some state official who happened to be running for governor, and I heard
one of the group say, "Here comes old Tom White. He represents
all these tobacco companies. He'll give us
$25,000." He came on out and jumped on me. I said,
"Well, that would really be nice to be in that position. But my
clients have people like me in fifty states. In some of those states
they have two people like me. They have to pay them. They'd
be out of business if they had to make political contributions to folks
like you in every state or anywhere." It just
doesn't work that way. But you'd be surprised at
the gall of people who ought not to be asking for contributions
that'll ask you for a contribution anyway.
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
Do a lot of companies or organizations make those kinds of contributions?
Do you know?
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
Yes. Some of them are afraid not to. They get in a situation occasionally
that they feel that they have a choice of making the requested
contribution or their cause goes down the drain.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
[TAPE 2, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
This is side A, tape three. We were talking about contributions and about
the fact that, at the very least, if you don't make the
requested contribution you can't really depend on the person
who is asking for it really being receptive when you ask him for
favorable consideration of a bill or something.
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
I would not want to give the impression that legislators of any kind
would toy with the idea of putting a price on their votes. But it stands
to reason that if anyone is displeased by what you do it does not make
them, to say the very least, look with favor on what you want them to
do. So it's just that sort of a psychology. You have to avoid
getting in situations like that as much as you can.
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
How do you turn down a request for a donation to some cause, campaign,
what have you, without creating that kind of….
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
Well, it's pretty difficult to do. If somebody asks you for a
donation they don't like to be put off. They'd
almost rather be turned down than to be put off because if you say,
"Well, let me think about that and see you later,"
then they'll get at least the notion that you are turning
them down but you just don't have the courage to say no flat
out, which isn't healthy either.
- PAMELA DEAN:
-
So it's better to just say no?
- THOMAS JACKSON WHITE, JR.:
-
Well, there isn't anything good about it so you
can't say anything is better.
[Laughter] So you just have to make a judgment about it and
if you are not in position to do it then you don't give them
any canned story, you just tell them what the
facts are about your situation, and then you can add, if you wish to,
"I hope you understand." But if they don't
get the money they don't understand. It's just
about that vicious. [Laughter]