Debate over the purpose of a community college education
Herring recalls Governor Luther Hodges's efforts in the late 1950s to develop an industrial education program in North Carolina to provide capable hands for textile mills, and Herring's own effort to convince the governor of the importance of comprehensive education. Comprehensive education lost out when the 1957 Community College Act shifted the state's focus to liberal arts education.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with William Dallas Herring, February 14, 1987. Interview C-0034. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- WILLIAM DALLAS HERRING:
-
From that day in April—I've forgotten what day of
the month it was—1958, in less than a year, the Burlington
city board of education had a new building for the Burlington IEC, it
was called, Industrial Education Center. Faculty was forty part-time
people and over a thousand students—fully operational. We
approved seven of them in the state on that occasion. The one in Wake
County took two or three years for them to get what is now Wake Tech
but…
- JAY JENKINS:
-
These were jointly financed; counties participated?
- WILLIAM DALLAS HERRING:
-
Yes, the counties. It was part of the public school system. They put up
the buildings, and we furnished them. We got the teachers'
salaries out of the George-Barden and Smith-Hughes Act funds, and the
real carrot was the equipment. I remember Charlie McCrary, Wade Martin,
and I went to Washington to the Pentagon to request them to grant some
of the equipment that they had stockpiled in the salt mines against
atomic attack. This was all new equipment. It was simply scattered about
the country in case of attack—machine tools most of them. We
made the point to them that we needed to stockpile some machinists to
run the equipment. If people got killed who knew how to run them, what
good would the machines be? And we were not getting to first base until
we got hold of Hodges. He called the powers that be—I
don't know who they were, but influence in the Pentagon
higher up—and we got over a million dollars worth of
equipment that went to Winston-Salem-Forsyth IEC. It's still
up there by the way. From that day on the idea
just took root and spread like wildfire.
It was a popular thing because it spoke to a need that the state had
never met before. Hundreds of thousands of people across the state were
shut out of the process of higher education. Shut out at the high school
level because the high schools are too small to give them a diversified
program that they really needed to keep their interest and teach them
the skills that they needed in order to make a living. At the same
session, the 1957 session, the Board of Higher Education was under the
leadership of Harris Purks, who was the director, a physics professor
and former provost at the University at Chapel Hill; Bill Womble, a
young lawyer from Winston-Salem, who was a representative from Forsyth;
Bob Lassiter from Charlotte, also a member of the Board of Higher
Education and of the legislature; and Charlie Reynolds, from, I believe,
Spindale. Oh, we had some fine people.
They proposed a different kind of community college system. Two of them
had been out to California with Harris Purks to look at this, and they
concluded that it was all wrong and didn't want to get
involved with that. What they were interested in was the liberal arts
and sciences programs only, no vocational at all.
Bonnie Cone had a comprehensive institution going in Charlotte at local
expense, called Central Community College. It was operated by the
Charlotte city schools, and public school vocational funds that came
through the Department of Public Instruction were used. But when the new
Community College Act of '57 was
adopted, it severed the ties with the public schools. You
couldn't spend the money on that. The state adopted a policy
of reimbursing the local institutions. I think the figure was
$3.50 per credit hour of instruction actually delivered. You
would pay this over at the end of the quarter. You had to operate on
local funds. You got a reimbursement at the end of the quarter if you
did actually produce so many credit hours. Well, that spelled the end of
vocational education for Charlotte Central Community College. Wilmington
also had one. The university started extension programs down there in
cooperation with the public schools. Asheville had a slightly different
experience with what was later known as Asheville-Biltmore Junior
College. We could not continue it. So we put the IEC's in
there to take up the vocational programs. Asheville-Buncombe Tech it is
now, Cape Fear Tech, and Central Piedmont Community College was at first
Central Piedmont IEC, in the same place in the old central high school
building.
Bonnie was very much grieved at that—this arbitrary
separation, and I shared it with her. I voted against it on the Board of
Higher Education, a minority of one again, and I don't want
there to be any misunderstanding about it. I voted against it because it
was a departure from the comprehensive community college idea, and it
was totally inadequate in its funding. They only appropriated
$25,000 for each of three schools. And they sold their soul for
a mess of pottage. Hiden Ramsey blessed me out about that. Bill Womble
got offended over it.
I just quietly went about my business of building the IEC's. I
knew Hodges would not agree for any liberal arts instruction to go into
them, no libraries. He wanted us to train these millhands and do it
right now and not have any pussyfooting about it. We were doing it. But
I told him, "These people can't read. A lot of them
can't read, and those that can, can only read at an
elementary school level. How do you expect them to perform in a complex
industry in tomorrow's technical fields?" Starting
the Research Triangle out here and expecting workers like this to
perform in it. I remember later on when he got to be Secretary of
Commerce (Watts Hill had been on the Board of Higher Education in the
Moore administration).
- JAY JENKINS:
-
Watts, Jr., I believe.
- WILLIAM DALLAS HERRING:
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Yeah. Watts got the idea that we were competing and about to turn the
IEC's into community colleges. Hodges didn't like
it. So I scheduled a session with him in Ready's
8 office.
8 Dr. I. E. Ready had become director of the Department of
Community Colleges in 1963.
I'm getting a little ahead of the story but
I'll tell you now while I'm thinking of it. Ed
Rankin was with him. They were dressed in their boots and were going
hunting. There was snow on the ground. They went bird hunting. I
defended what we did, but I don't think I ever convinced
either one of them, Ed or Hodges, that the comprahensive idea was what
was right for the state. We'll get back to that in a minute.
We didn't fall out about it but we just didn't
agree. Another thing that Hodges did, and I think it's often
lost in the telling. He began the State Citizens
Committee for Better Schools. Holt McPherson
9 of High Point was chairman of it.
9 Editor, High Point Enterprise.
[Interruption]
I was telling about the result of the 1957 Community College Act which
really was not a community college act. It was an act to inhibit the
development of community colleges and to redirect the local movement to
liberal arts and sciences alone rather than a comprehensive curriculum
involving the technical and vocational as well as the avocational and
the liberal arts and sciences. My colleagues on the Board of Higher
Education simply were not convinced that the state needed any such thing
as that.