That's when I went back to school to get my Ph.D. I was teaching at Salem
College, and I enjoyed that. I enjoyed
Page 32 getting back
to teaching, and I though this is really where I'd like to be. And the
perfect job would be to have an administrative position and do some
teaching. I couldn't do that without getting another degree, although it
wasn't only my idea. I had met a young woman called Joan True, who was
working in research at the University here, Chapel Hill. She came and
interviewed me, very much like you're doing, on some research that she
was doing. And we began friends and she pushed me. She said, "You ought
to go and get your Ph.D." And I hadn't even thought of it until that
time, and then as I enjoyed Salem, I thought, "Well, maybe she's right.
What have I to lose?" So I did go into that. At that point I was out of
politics. I mentioned earlier the division was in the party and the
Helms faction coming in and controlling it, and I had no place in that.
I became president of the North Carolina Women's Political Caucus in
'79, and so stayed in a bi-partisan situation and still worked for women
and supported women who were running for office. But I was very careful
about who I supported in the party because I was not going to support
people who were not moderate. Then I was asked to come and be
development director for the UNC Center for Public Television and got
very much in that and still continued to teach part-time at Salem, and
was still getting my doctorate. So I was pretty much out of politics
until '84 when Martin came in and became the major candidate, and I
worked for him. Because of the job I had done under Holshouser, I had
achieved some credibility. He asked me to come in and be Secretary of
the Administration. That was a whole different ballgame than
Page 33 Cultural Resources. I was able to put a lot to work that I
had been studying in my Ph.D. My Ph.D. was in educational administration
and organizational development. So the Department of Administration
could almost become a lab. I was interested, as I was the first time
around, in developing an environment of trust in which people would be
comfortable and would feel comfortable bringing feedback to me that
needed to be said. And develop a team approach in which we would all
enjoy working together regardless of what the backgrounds were,
politically or otherwise. It was not easy, not because people within the
department weren't ready for something like that, but Martin had within
the governor's office people that were highly political and pushing you
to be political. And the governor had announced that he wanted to
professionalize state government, and so I took him at his word. But it
was an uphill fight, not so much from him, but from people in his
office. It was not an enjoyable experience. Also there was a move, which
I haven't talked about much, by the deputy secretary to take over the
department. He sat down with me and he said, "Now, you just go and do
what you enjoy doing best," and he said, "I'll take over and run the
department." And I said, "No, you won't." I said to him, "The governor
appointed me," and I said, "I didn't bring you in here to run the
department. I brought you in here to run the Division of Government
Operations." And then he said, "But they told me," and he stopped. I
said, "I don't care what they told you." And I knew from then on that my
days were numbered because they had evidently, well, I think two things
happened. One thing, they
Page 34 put me in charge of the
most powerful department in the state government. Secondly, I was to be
a figurehead so they would look good, you know, having a woman. And Jane
Patterson had run it before me, and it was a very uneasy, I was never
comfortable. It was an uneasy throne as I think of it, and wondering
when the other shoe was to drop. And I thought, "Well, hell, I'm in
here. I know this isn't going to last forever. I'll do what I can." And
I fought everybody
[laughter] to bring in
qualified people whether they were Democrats or Republicans. If there
were two people out there equally, I would put in a Republican, of
course. But I wasn't going to jeopardize what we had to do in order to
please some of the people that were down in the governor's office. When
I took over, Physical Plant was in disarray because it was the dumping
ground. We were responsible for the maintenance and repair of state
buildings, and I had to go in there and fire a number of people because
they were, one was mayor of Cary and spent most of his time there while
the state was paying him to be over here. The other was the county
commissioner doing the same thing. They weren't doing their jobs. And I
brought in a professional to head up that, and told him to clean it out
and get the thing straightened up. He lasted for a year. Meanwhile, he'd
done a study and developed a program which we started to implement. We
had something to give to the legislature. The University grabbed him up
after about a year and a half because he was really tops, which is
something that you go through all the time in state government. You
can't keep people. And the universities pay better than state
government
Page 35 does for some reason. So it was a
tremendous learning experience.
[laughter]
But I experienced discrimination in a way that I had not experienced it
before. In time, well, another thing came up. I was a moderate in a
conservative administration. Not that the governor is highly
conservative. I would say he's a moderate leaning to the right. But he
had to get in with the far right supporting him. Here they had this
moderate in here, and people evidently were yelling for my scalp. And so
it was suggested that I move into the governor's office and take over
policy and planning and move out. Well, that was the reason given and I
think it was, in a sense, true. But I also knew about the other. And so
I said, "Sure." I was glad to get out of it. Stress-wise, it was
tremendous, and it was a relief to finally have it come to an end. So I
had developed a whole strategic planning for the governor anyhow as
Secretary of Administration, and then handed him an agenda that was
quite powerful. The only thing, he hadn't used it. He didn't use it
effectively. So at that point I decided that I was going to get out,
which I did by writing a proposal to Appalachian State University saying
[that], "Based on my experience in state government and the problems
that were there were because state government was being run
predominantly by technocrats whose knowledge was limited. There was an
impoverishment of intelligence, imagination, creativity, because the
system did not allow that, also because of the narrowness of their
experience and training. And I felt what was lacking was a good sound
background in the humanities which develops critical thinking,
Page 36 which helps to develop balanced judgment, and so
forth, and they [ASU] were very interested in it and asked me to come.
So I did.