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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview E-0014-2, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
John Russell was an organizer for the Fur and Leather Workers Union during the 1940s and 1950s. A member of the executive board during those years, Russell describes the events leading to the Fur and Leather Workers' merger with the Amalgamated Meat Cutters Union in 1955. Russell begins the interview by describing the Fur and Leather Workers heritage of radical politics and their strong southern presence, particularly in the mountain region of North Carolina and Tennessee. Russell discusses the Fur and Leather Workers' success in organizing strong locals throughout this region, including the Laundry Workers Strike of 1947 in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. Although that strike ultimately failed, Russell uses the event as a lens for understanding the strategies and tactics of the Fur and Leather Workers and to describe the strong support base they had. Throughout the interview, Russell focuses on the progressive thinking of the Fur and Leather Workers and argues that they had a strong vision for trade unionization. As a result, they supported Progressive presidential candidate Henry Wallace in 1948 while the mainstream labor movement loaned their support to Harry S. Truman. Because of their progressive politics (and their association with the Communist Party), Russell explains how the Fur and Leather Workers were increasingly prone to red-baiting by the late 1940s and early 1950s. Because of this, Russell argues that the executive board ultimately determined to fall in line with the mainstream movement by merging with the Amalgamated Meat Cutters (and by proxy the AFL-CIO) because they believed they could make a stronger impact by working within the movement rather than outside of it. In describing how the merger came to fruition, Russell focuses on the roles of various leaders of the Fur and Leather Workers, including Ben Gold, Abe Fineglass, and Irving Potash. Finally, Russell briefly discusses the aftermath of the merger and how AFL-CIO leaders like George Meany and Patrick Gorman affected the progressive approach of the former Fur and Leather Workers.
John Russell describes the events leading to the merger of the Fur and Leather Workers Union with the Amalgamated Meat Cutters in 1955. Russell focuses on the progressive political views of the Fur and Leather Workers, their strong regional presence in the South, the role of leaders within their trade union movement, and the aftermath of the merger.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
John, we got up to about 1954 last time. We talked about your growth with
the Fur and Leather Workers, and you told me some things about how you
managed to survive in North Carolina between that '50 - '54 period, when
the Fur and Leather Workers were out of the mainstream of trade
unionism, but there are a few things that we didn't cover before, that
happened before 1954, that I'd like to go back to, if we could talk
about that. One thing that interested me about that late forties period
we talked about some, but not a lot, was the strong sense of regional
unionism in western North Carolina. You started some locals there in
Hazelwood, and there were some other locals not a part
Well, he was the leading guy in the Hazelwood local, that was the old Fur and Leather Worker Local 345.
Do you remember a committee he started, called the Dollar an Hour Committee?
Well, there was a committee like that and I can't remember now whether it was a Dollar or not, it probably was though … and where did you get that, I don't know, you see?
I got it in the Fur and Leather Workers magazine.
That must have been in 1946 or 1947.
1947.
'47, those years there. It's a long ways back to remember. In those years
we set up certain goals. And then, we just organized the district
conference and made a District 5 of the International Union, and of
course, we set up realistic goals, goals that we felt we could achieve
and that wouldn't make people feel that if they didn't achieve 100%,
that they hadn't accomplished anything. So we set up realistic goals and
some of them were real hard to achieve before we were done. Well, a
dollar an hour don't sound like much, but it was a hell of a lot in
those days,
So you were thinking about that in terms of all your locals?
Right, and all of our people, yes.
And other locals in the region?
Yeah, you see we had locals all around. That was in Hazelwood, North Carolina. We had a local in Armour at Sylva, North Carolina, Armour Leather Company. We had a local at Hans Reese in Asheville, North Carolina, had one in Brevard, North Carolina at a Silverstein Tanning Company, had one over in Rosman, that was another Silverstein Company.
In where?
In Rosman, North Carolina. And, we had one at Andrews, North Carolina … I figure that is gone completely … it was gone shortly after that. By 1947, I think it was 1947, we won to set up a local in Newport, Tennessee, at one of the A. C. Lawrence Leather Company Plants.
Were you the strongest union in Western North Carolina?
Well, it depends what you mean by strength. We were probably the most progressive, most militant, we certainly weren't the most numerically strong. You had at that time, you had … Enka was organized at that time, American Enka.
Which union was that at that time?
That was the United Textile Workers Union of America, and there were other textile unions, there was … I'm trying to think of the name of that there in Asheville now, … there are a number of textile unions that were still, they were organized at that time and numerically were bigger than ours.
Were they TWUA?
Well, TWUA, most of them. I think that the only one I can remember of UTW was American Enka.
Canton was organized too, wasn't it?
No, Canton was not organized. Canton didn't organize until the late sixties. They never were organized. The plant, … the company that that plant belonged to was organized as I understand in other areas, but wasn't organized in … it took a number of attempts to organize that paper plant. The same thing went for Eucusta. Eucusta resisted ever since I can remember and Ecusta was there when they went South. They resisted organization way up until the late sixties too, and finally succumbed about the same time they won Canton in Champion Fiber. And of course, there were some Craft Unions and things like that.
I want to mention the strength in western North Carolina about that time to try to get some …
Well, our union probably had … we had in
Do you remember other kinds of influences in that area like Highlander Folk School, or anything else …
Yes.
That helped you in organizing?
Well the way it helped us … We sent people from Hazelwood to the Highlander Folk School, we sent … I don't think we sent Davis, but we sent George … somebody …
Hurley, from the Newport Local.
Yeah, George Hurley, he went and also some from Hazelwood went, and they went to the Highlander Folk School.
When they came back, how did they influence the local?
Well, it's not easy to judge, especially looking back. I realize that
they played some role, because the Highlander Folk School was a real
progressive group, they
Did Hardy Scott encourage that?
Oh yes. Well, I think Hardy Scott encouraged that all the time, with everybody he could possibly work with. Hardy was a very progressive guy and he was a political trade unionist, beyond the argument. That was the first thing he saw.
Can you think of anything else about that time, any other specific kinds of influence?
That we … or that was influencing us?
That was helping you get this strength … these strong unions, you got them together and they seemed to be pretty …
Well, basically, our program and policies flowed out of the policies of the international union. And of course, both Hardy and myself, and some other people we knew, were pretty well aware politically of what was the score around the world, you know, and in the country. And I think probably that between our policies and political positions which we thought were correct, which helped to at least orient us toward building the kind of progressive trade union, that united black and white and women, all elements, in a way that we wouldn't have, I am sure, if we hadn't had that kind of understanding and influence and background.
Do you think much of the … besides strength that you brought from your awareness of the international situation and the Fur and Leather Workers positions, any kind of, you know, ground swell from the local people, say in Andrews of Hazelwood … did you have to build everything that you got, or did they want that kind of progressive trade union?
No, I think we, you see, we understood … it. I did a lot of reading,
Hardy was really up on the history and traditions of the mountain
people, he did a lot of studying on this. And what we did, you see, is
we used the progressive role of mountain people during the Civil War,
and other times, to help their learning
Local people knew you were being red-baited?
Oh yes, yes, sure, sure … in practically every issue. For instance in
1950, when we left the CIO, before I even got back from the convention,
the CIO had organizers into Asheville and into Newport, Tennessee
attempting to take them away on the grounds that we were a bunch of
communists and that Ben Gold had been found guilty, or had been charged
with lying under oath about the Taft-Hartley law, and things like this.
And they came in making a big issue out of the red issue, you see, and
offering to lead these workers out to the good sane, as they say
"sensible" american trade union … that wasn't going to have all that
foreign dominance and influence. But I think that certainly it was a
credit to our union, to our policies and programs, as well as to the
terrific understanding of these people in the mountains, not only as far
as tolerance
I've got to find Hardy Scott and talk to him about that.
He's in Alabama or somewhere. If you could find Don West, he'd know where he is. I am sure that Don would know where Hardy is.
From what I have read, it seems the most dramatic strike during that period was the Winston-Salem Laundry Workers strike.
Yes, it was the hardest, meanest, one that we conducted, and the toughest. No doubt about it.
I've got a few notes here from the Fur and Leather Workers' Newspaper, but I think you could add some insight on it.
Go ahead.
Do you remember how many workers went out and what the …
Close to 500.
… nature of the …
Well, the nature of the issues in the strike were … Well, first of all, it was a question of recognition, and secondly, of course, the whole conditions of these people. You just couldn't believe what was happening, that people worked many times 49, 50, 60 hours a week and only got $11 or $12 a week for their pay. Yet, that is exactly what it was getting. We used to have stubs of workers for $12, $11 and the hours on it were 49 or 50 hours, right on the stub.
How did you get in there in the first place?
Well, we already had this little salvage group in Winston-Salem, that's how we got into it. And it was in there when I came down in 1946, in August, and they were just beginning to … Hardy was just beginning to organize these laundry workers. They came to our union for help. Nobody else would take them, they were probably 90% black, or 80% at least, and nobody else would take them. Everybody recognized that you couldn't use the NLRB, because of their intra-state character. And so, nobody wanted them and we said, "Well, we'll take a hand and try it."
Why couldn't you use an NLRB?
Because you couldn't in those days. They were considered intra-state instead of interstate and I think it's the same today.
They were all women?
Oh no, a lot of them were men. I say a lot of them, the best I can recollect, there must have been 25% men. They did jobs of driving, the heavy work, and stuff like that. We had some excellent men leaders which was at that time, among black people quite an astonishing thing in these kind of places where women dominated, you know.
So did you try to negotiate a contract first?
Oh yeah. Yes, in fact, we had a number of meetings with the representatives of the laundry association, and I might say it was peculiar, but Reynolds had some influence at that time. They were organized, and they had some influence in seeing to it that they met, but we couldn't reach any agreement.
The company?
The company, yes.
They saw to it that …
That the landry workers association in that town met with us. I don't say they saw to it, but it was our understanding that they had insisted that these guys at least meet, so they probably wouldn't be accused of just ignoring this kind of group of people, you see.
Did Reynolds control all of their workers?
Oh no, I don't know. Who knows? I wouldn't know. They were part of the
Southeast Laundry Owners Association.
You think it was more of the Laundry Workers than Reynolds?
Than Reynolds, yes. Reynolds was still organized at that time by a very progressive group and I don't think they put their hand into the thing with any intention to block it. I think they would rather have had that happen than … I mean, they would rather have seen them organized and have a contract, I think, than have a big fight that might have affected their people who were coming up too, for negotiations, you see.
When you first went in, and had these initial bargaining sessions, what was the role of the tobacco workers?
Very good, very good. I think they probably influenced Reynolds to some
degree, to do what they done. I know we had one meeting where the
Reynolds, some of
What other leaders do you remember besides Velma Hopkins and Miranda Smith?
Well, Chick Black, Carl Korstadt, who is a white leader …
That is still in Reynolds, right?
Yeah, in Reynolds … oh, you are talking about …
Well both.
Well, in the Tobacco Workers Union, we had the … there was Carl Korstadt, there was Theodisia Simpson, and … God, there are so many, I can't even remember the names anymore. They had one black who turned out later to be a very reactionary black. I'm just trying to think of his name, I know it. Well, I can't think of it right now.
What about in the Laundry Workers?
In the Laundry Workers, we had a number of people, we had some excellent leadership, both men and women. Again, the problem of remembering names is just a little too much. It has been some twenty years … 25, and if I knew …
Do you have it in the files?
I might find it somewhere, but we had some by the name of Jones, we had … I am afraid to say because the names are going through my head, and you get them mixed up in all the campaigns we've been in. If you had your notes or something, I could remember, but without them, I don't believe I could.
A couple things about these articles in the newspaper really interested me. First of all, there were very tough sentences on the people that were arrested.
Yes, indeed they were. I think we got up to three years in some cases.
Did you pursue that?
Oh yeah. They never served all that time, you know. We had a few people who were in jail for a month, or something like that, but we finally, through our attorneys, we worked off a deal and got it ended. I forget what it cost the International, it cost them a pretty good piece of dough.
But the International stuck with them?
Oh sure, right through to the end. Yes.
Who were your attorneys?
Who came in there? I can't remember. It might have been Cammer, I'm not sure, Harold Cammer. It could be.
Local attorney or …
No, International. If it was the International guy, it would have been Harold Cammer, I'm sure, or somebody from his office. Or, we may have used a local guy. Now, what we did do one time, we employed a local lawyer from there, who is now a big name lawyer in international law … Charles Livengood, who came from Duke by the way, and has been an arbitrator for us. We got awful teed off at this guy, because the son-of-a-bitch did nothing, and charged us an awful bill.
Really?
Yeah, and we got real teed off. Later on, we have had him in some arbitrations, and I guess he remembers me and remembers the union, and we've gotten some pretty decent decisions from the guy.
Do you remember the effect the strike had on the town?
Terrific … we were the talk of the town for many many months there, you
know. Because we used to
What do you mean "politically"?
In a sense of pointing out the political effect of the strike, what it would do to the town, the county and everything else. We also had those who approved purely from a humanitarian point of view. And anyway, we spent weeks and weeks and we probably spent as much leafleting as we did in strike benefits. We laid out a real cause all around that area of the country.
Ben Gold came down then?
Ben Gold came and spent about a week down there, close to it, and made a number of speeches …
Did it move him?
Oh, yeah. I'll never forget Ben. We took him on a tour of the areas right
around the tobacco plants, and in those days they were nothing but
slums, as you remember, or if you ever knew the country at all. But
there were, oh, some horrible places, and even horrible by modern day
slums, I mean. Some areas of the nation today … they were much worse
than that because of outside toilets, in many cases, one water spicket
sticking up between two or three houses, and
He wrote a … your word is the best one, a very "compassionate," but also a strongly political letter in the Fur Leather Workers paper.
Yes, yes.
A long …
He always did.
What kind of support do you remember, when you leafleted all over the county, from the …
Excellent, it was a surprising thing. In fact, let me tell you, they were … those laundries were in trouble for a long long time. People just stayed away from them. We used to picket in front of them … picket in front and pass out leaflets, and in every struck plant. And the reception was wonderful, and in the neighborhoods or on the streets or anywhere. We developed a picture of these people, actual pictures of their homes, their conditions, their pay checks … It just couldn't help but move somebody, you know, and it moved tens of thousands of these people around that area. We used to go into other towns like High Point, and put them out so they would get the message to them. We had leafleting committees printing every day.
Did other workers walk out other places?
No, no, no. We had all the laundries there on strike, you understand, all of … any size. Now, I don't remember if there were any small ones we didn't put on. We had all the … we had every one that had from fifty workers up, most of them had 100 to 150 workers in them.
Do you remember some names like Reverend Pitts?
Reverend Pitts, I remember, yes.
T. C. Callum?
Callum, yes, yes. These were people who also helped the old Tobacco Workers Union, you know, were very strong factors in their growth and strength.
Can you account for any reason that Winston-Salem had some black leadership like this, that took some chances and …
Of course, there was a political movement in Winston-Salem. The Communist party had a lot of people in there. I say a lot of people, a lot of people for a southern city, and they had a lot of people in Local 22, and …
That was?
That was the Food and Tobacco Workers Union. And they had programs that were basically oriented towards the welfare of poor people, including their own membership. And they played a role in the community on that basis, too. It just is too bad that they lost out eventually, you see, and not only for them, but for the fate of all the other workers in tobacco around the country.
Did the … you won the strike then?
No, we didn't win. After six months the company had filled the plants
with scabs. I don't say they filled it, but it became obvious you
couldn't win … that either the companies were being subsidized by
somebody
You had no NLRB protection?
No, no NLRB protection, no. There was no way you could get it.
No way you could get these people back to work?
No way.
Did they get a job? Did they get back to work?
Yeah. We used to get letters from them for a few years even. They used to write what was happening to them and things … we still had contacts way up until, I guess the middle of the fifties, with these people down there, and …
What kind of letters?
Letters talking about what they were doing and stuff like that, basically just friendly social letters, but also talking about the battle at times, you know. They remember the old battle we had. It was very, very … we got some real warm letters. It was a pleasure to get them from these people.
Did they ever ask you to come back to them?
Well, most of them were gone from this industry, you see. And like most people, I assume what happened back there didn't affect them that much after they were gone from the industry.
There was a massive black list from that strike?
I doubt it. If there were, we didn't know it. Most of these people went
and got jobs. They would have only gotten jobs in the lowest, poorest
paid jobs anyway, you see. So, from that point of view … chances are
that people who hired them were happy to get anybody they could.
… They wanted so badly for us to win, too. Simply because they felt that
it would take … not only would it help politicalize the town more, and
the working class movement there, but it would, of course, help their
union in their struggles against Reynolds. It would divert some heat
from them, you know, I suppose, at least give them allies in the battle,
and so they were … they did everything they could, they were an
excellent group. We got all kinds of money from them, we got all kinds
of physical help, we got all kinds of leadership from them, in forms of
people who could figure out things, you know … Miranda Smith, and people
like this. We had a very close relationship. I'll never forget that when
the strike
Who made the decision finally to call off the strike?
Well, it was apparent to me it was lost, you know, and no hope of winning, and to continue it would only mean endless suffering for our people. And so we figured they might better go at a good time, and get out when they could get a job.
Was there a strike committee, too, then?
Oh yeah, we had …
You mean they thought that too?
Oh yeah, yeah, there was … even Miranda and all of them agreed that you can't go anymore. They were very surprised that we lasted that long, but they agreed you couldn't go anymore. But that doesn't prevent the heartbreak and the feeling about the thing, because you do develop a tremendous comradeship in these kind of struggles, you see, and my God, we were … it was a real joy to work with those people in Winston-Salem.
Everything you read about that sounds like a different mood than today.
Yes it was, indeed. Today, it is too much, "I'll take care of my wagon and you take care of yours." We even had help from the furniture workers union. They had had a big strike in High Point, and they had a very progressive group in High Point, by the way.
Yes, and they had very close alliances with the Reynolds Tobacco Workers … Miranda Smith and these people. And we, of course, very quickly had an affinity with these people, you see, and they used to send us over help and they also sent over some muscle when we had a couple scabs we had to dump you know, and things like that, and I guess that they felt that we would return the favor when the time came, you know. You know how things are like that, anyway …
Did they come up when you had to announce that you were ending the strike?
That we weren't ending it, or we were?
That you were ending the strike.
Oh yes, yes … they came, they had people from over there. We had a good relationship with everybody in that area. I say everybody, I say everybody in the progressive labor movement.
Do you think the defeat of that strike was kind of a turning point for the progressive … both labor and other people in that area?
Well, who knows how much impact that had. My guess is that it didn't help any, because if we had won it, we'd have been there. We'd have been probably the first union. We were out of CIO before the FTA, and … I think we were, maybe I'm wrong, but I think we were. I believe we were.
I can't remember, it was close.
I'll go back and look. It was very close because they were kicked out, if you remember …
They were like U.E…
Yeah, they were kicked out, but we didn't get kicked out, we walked out. I know it was a fine distinction there … much more than just the appearance than there was in the substance, because we were going anyway, one way or the other. We just decided to walk out instead of being thrown out.
When did FTA lose members?
Well, I think they lost it in 1948 or 1949, because I know we
participated in the struggles right up through '50 and we went on this
fishermans strike and organizational campaign. And we participated in
their struggles to ward off the CIO, and the AF of L at that time.
For FTA?
For us, and we sent her down to help them, you see, and we sent money, I was there myself. I spent many weeks there helping them.
I should talk to Mary about that?
Yeah. Mary will talk to you about it, sure, yeah. I can't remember which …
Can't remember whether the jurisdictional, I mean whether the CIO came in there …
Well the CIO was in there, yeah.
They were in there?
Yes.
And they called for an election and …
Well, see that is what they did. They … FTA could not get … the first time FTA got on the ballot I think, … I think that is before they got kicked out, they lost the election. Now, let me just do some thinking about them. I think maybe FTA was out ahead of us …
No, I mean at Winston-Salem.
That is what I am saying. I am just trying to think whether or not the
company de-certified and they
Yeah.
You weren't directly involved in that anyway.
Well, doubtlessly we helped with the tail end of leafleting and all this kind of business, but I think Mary was in that fight.
Who was in leadership of FTA that was down, analagous to you?
Oh, any of them. I was an International rep at that time.
I mean FTA?
A fellow by the name of Kouritz, or Carl Korstadt, or Miranda. Miranda was a local person but she had national stature already at that time. So did Chick, and even Velma was closely approaching national recognition as a terrific leader, you know.
A lot of local people were really educated at that time … I mean given a sense of political reality.
Right.
Did these letters indicate that that statement held down through the years?
Oh yeah … oh you mean our people from the laundry? Oh yes, yes. See, nothing shook those people. Red-baiting didn't shake them and didn't make a damn bit of difference what they called us.
Were they active in the Civil Rights movement?
Well, it hadn't really begun to move in those days, you see. The seed was there, beyond any argument, because of working with them, our constantly pushing them forward as leaders, and developing them. So that I would suspect that most of them must have taken part in the Civil Rights movement.
You don't know for sure from those letters that you got.
Well, they hadn't started then, you see. There was no great Civil Rights movement until '61 or '62 at least.
You weren't getting letters then at that time?
No, they were already either married and gone or were transferred.
Well, I think that helps on that …
I had a … you know, I don't know a tougher job to do than to admit you
got a licking, and you have to go in and bite hard on the bullet
sometimes. And sometimes there are real reasons. You don't want people
destroyed completely, you see. You can demoralize people until they
never have a chance to come back. See, this is something
It did that to organizers too.
Yes, it does indeed. I know a lot of them became battle weary, battle victims really and they just … too many wars.
But you didn't?
No, no. I don't think so. Sometimes, I get … I guess maybe because I am
getting a little older, I have a tendency to get a little sharp, a
little, but maybe that is because you get a little bureaucratic, running
a union like this. So there is no use kidding about it, but I don't … as
far as the struggles are concerned, no. What bothers me more than
anything else, Bill, to be honest with you, some of these cock-eyed,
kooky sects that are supposed to be part of the left, you know. Maybe it
is a good thing and maybe it isn't, I don't know. But Jesus Christ, you
know, if a man had told me thirty years ago, or twenty years ago, "Look,
you don't need unions and I'm a Communist and I'm … this is my
philosophy that the goddamn unions are so lousy, you don't need unions
anymore,
Let's go back to what … I want to pursue that later, because that's what is on your mind today too, it means more.
Right after that defeat in Winston-Salem, you had … to help you kind of get back into the battle was Henry Wallace's campaign.
Yeah, and of course we took a strong position in that, you know.
I'm curious about what … after a defeat like that in an industrial campaign it was very dramatic, it had real strong community spirit …
Yeah.
Then to kind of get back in the battle, you went into the political realm. What was the link up there in your philosophy or …
In the philosophy, you know. As we saw it … it was a 1948 campaign and
Truman never sounded dull to me then and really didn't afterwords
either, never at
Do you feel that the CIO leadership at the time was cowardly because they wouldn't …
Well cowardly … I thought they were opportunistic … first of all, I
thought they lacked an ideology. You don't call people cowardly, I don't
think, because of that, you know. They certainly didn't ever see eye to
eye with people like us as far as the development of a progressive trade
union movement, or the need to develop labor's own party, or to have an
ideology in the labor movement. They never never saw eye to eye with
this. So, I wouldn't say they were cowardly, what I would say about the
sons-of-bitches, they were pragmatic trade unionists. Like Phil Murray,
who saw that the left was going to be under heavy attack … not the left,
but the whole labor movement
What about people that had more … had been more open to the left, like Walter Reuther or Jim Carey?
Some of these guys … Jim Carey, never, no … he …
He never was open?
Yeah, but he never was nothing easy, he never was, as far as I know, anything more than about an ADA guy, or something like that, you know, and …
ADA?
Americans for Democratic Action type of guy, see. I don't remember whether Carey was ever known as a left winger or not.
He was with UE before …
Doesn't mean much, you see. That's why UE was kicked out of UE, you know that. And Fitzgerald took his place. Of course, a guy like Matlass, and Ernie, … what the hell was his name, Demell, was that his name?
I don't know.
Remember, these guys were the key leaders in UE, you see. But I don't remember Jim Carey as ever being considered left-wing. I think it was a Catholic Trade Unionists, ACTU guy.
What about Reuther?
Well, Reuther was always a disappointment for me. I always hoped that the Reuthers would stand up. You know, they went to the Soviet Union, they worked in the Soviet Union, they learned in the Soviet Union, and we hoped that they would be able to stand up … We knew what they were going through, you know.
Do you know them?
No, but I knew of them, of course, see but, you know, you know these guys … and I knew them through the papers, the progressive papers and things, and you know the guys had an opportunity to see, that they even came back with high praises for a collective system for the workers, for a socialist state, but evidently their ambitions to become something big in the labor movement were more important to them and that is what they did.
So, personally at this time, you knew the Fur and Leather Worker leadership?
Oh yeah, yeah.
You didn't know the other big names in the other international unions.
Oh no, no, not a guy like Reuther and them. We knew of them, of course.
Who the hell don't know them. I really talked about Reuther's policies,
but even in those days … the late forties and fifties, Reuther was not
Did you work with … I think her name was Mary Price, who ran for Governor in North Carolina.
No.
From the Progressive party.
When was this?
1948.
If we did, I don't remember, to tell you the truth. We fought for heavy … but most of the Wallace campaign I was back up north. They had had a real calamity take place in the Endicott … in the area. Since I organized it, they asked me to come up and help, so I took a leave of absence during the '48 period. I was in the North actually when the Wallace … I came back South on periodic visits to make sure that Hardy and these guys were moving in the direction of helping Wallace as much as we could in the South at that time, you see. We did what we could do.
When we talked before … let's move on now, you talked in some detail about the Fur and Leather Workers leaving the CIO in 1950. We talked about the labor - business alliances and CIO leadership and so forth, and you talked some about how your district survived in that '50 - '54 period with Menhaden Fish. What I would be interested … what I want to explore now is the shifts in Fur and Leather Worker leadership from '50 to '54, and the factors that led up to the merger with Amalgamated.
There wasn't so much shift in leadership between '50 and '54. There was a lot of stresses inside the leadership. There were obviously people who felt we should not stay out of the main stream of labor, and who would have been happy to be back in the main stream. And of course, these weren't the most political guys, most of these were just plain progressive trade union guys who went along with progressive policies.
They wanted back in?
They felt that they needed the umbrella early, you see, and …
What did you feel?
Well in the beginning, you know, I was a young guy, and I just couldn't
take that shit that they were dishing out, I just said "Look, if we have
to, we can live alone." It may have been a mistake then, you know.
And you did.
Yes, we did in '54. But in '54, by then there had been a series of raids and attacks and it was apparent that they were going to use the hatchet on us, you see.
Who was they?
They, the federal government, you know, where ever they could. And thinking began to shift, I'd say, in about '52 or '53. You know, raid after raid … we beat them off but it became a question of time as we saw it, you see.
CIO raids or AF of L?
All kinds … CIO, AF of L … political attacks by the government,
everything, you see. We had guys in jail … Christ, they went to jail,
Potash, and all these fellows, you see. Well, Potash went earlier than
that, but we had guys who went and … there were guys who could have went
… even Gold was under attack. They were trying to put him in jail, you
see. So eventually we
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
… were gone, you see, and that if we were going to do a service for the American Labor Movement, we had to be somewhere where we could influence it, you know. And while it is one thing to influence by example from outside, it's a hell of a lot better to influence by example inside, plus having something to say about policies inside, you see. Even if you are an isolated group inside, it would appear that you are better off, you see.
You had less and less power.
Less and less power, that's right, and less and less influence. So, you see as early as '52, there was … people were beginning to say, "Well, maybe we ought to think in terms of some reaffiliation …"
Would you meet together with the district people, and with the Executive Board, and talk like this?
Oh, I was on the national board. I was on the Executive Board of the AFL-CIO …
So you would talk with Gold and Potashe?
Oh sure, yes, and we had special … you know, we had meetings, Executive Board meetings, formal Executive Board meetings, but that could mean anything. That could mean meeting with some ACTU guys, some old socialists, some just plain simple economic trade unionists, you know, and all kinds of elements. So, you always had other meetings too, where the guys of progressive thinking could work out their own line of thought on a deal, and more and more, it became apparent that we were going to have to go … and there were some who resisted and Gold was one of the strongest.
He resisted?
Yeah. He recognized the validity of the thinking, but he also recognized the consequences of acting on it, you see.
In this Brody book, he talks about Gold citing the …
Non-Communists … this is what they were after him on, lying under oath, you know.
He was convicted, wasn't he?
Yeah, but he never served no time because we got it reversed, I think. We got it reversed. I forget the exact grounds, but the Constitutional grounds or something, you see…
But he resigned from …
In 1955, he finally resigned … I mean …
1954.
'54, yeah … Virgil was '55, and they took over in '54. He resigned after making a fantastic protest, one to make you almost cry. In doing it, you loved him. You knew how he must be bleeding to give up something he spent his lifetime building. But, it became the decision and the decision he had to live by.
Did he get isolated from the union after that?
Yeah. Now, there were others who had to go, you know, but they knew it too. They knew it even while they argued for going back into the labor movement. See, that is what always made me a proud guy to be associated with these fellows. Gold didn't, it wasn't no personal fear of having a job that motivated Gold, or anything like that, nothing that cheap or anything. It just was that he thought we were wrong in giving up the union … or sacrificing to move back into the labor movement. The other guys knew they were going to go, and yet they voted right down the line.
To go on in?
To go, …
Even though they …
Because of their history …
This, to me, was the greatest proof of their loyalty to progressive thinking, and they lived, I mean, they went out just like they always lived …
What did they do after that?
Well …
Did they accept the labor movement?
Oh yeah, sure, in the progressive movement. Well, some of them went back into shops, they are all furriers, you know. Some went back into shops, earned a good living and what have you. Some of our guys, let me say, the guys that came out of furs organized on a temporary basis, used to say "Goddamn, Ben, let me go back in the shop and earn enough living so I can go back and organize some more." And it was the truth, because they made good money in the shops. They used to take $100 a week cuts sometimes to come out and work in the goddamn field, and that is a rarity …
It's not that way anymore.
But it was wonderful. I remember a young kid named Billy Wasserman. He
was a floor boy, and he
When Fineglass took over he didn't have a CP history like Gold?
Oh yes, yes.
But not as …
Not as blatant, not as open, and he wasn't on the national committee. You
see, we had this kind of a problem with Gold, and with Potash, both were
on the national committee of the Communist party. Obviously,
No, it was Meany.
Meany was it? Well, … when did Green give up the ghost?
Maybe when you started it was Green.
Yeah, but anyway, it was obvious that the AF of L and/or the CIO, neither one would … See we talked to two different groups.
I was going to ask you … why not think about the Packing House Workers?
Well, we did. We had a lot of talks with them, you see. But who knows … I wasn't in on the talks, but I am convinced that there was some jealousies on the parts of some people, and I think that the Packing House were basically afraid that they would choose an open Communist group. "If they come with us, we'll be under serious attack too, you know."
Well, it is just very weird that the Amalgamated would take that risk in the … in the AF of L.
Well, don't you see … you don't see the logic, you see. Our union not
only talked with Packing House, but we talked with Shoe. In fact, I was
in on one meeting with Shoe that has this fellow named Fitzgerald or
Gorman. There were some other objective conditions that made us go to the Meatcutters. One, of course, was that the Meatcutters have the jurisdiction of Leather for the AF of L, and we thought in terms of uniting Leather, you see. Secondly, …
They had already taken in the Leather Workers Union?
They had already taken in the old Barney Quinn's, no, they took in Barney
Quinn's AF of L Leather Workers Union, which, of course, means nothing.
You know Barney Quinn was nothing, he was shit. Mostly union contracts
were used to take them away from him every time we went after them. But
I think also, in addition to that, in addition to this unity of the
Leather, was the fact that Gorman was considered a pretty independent
thinker, and also an old socialist,
In some ways this is unique, that the merger occurred.
Yes it is indeed. In fact probably our merger helped kick off the AF of L, CIO merger. You know, it indicated the direction and perhaps in the inevitability of mergers between unions and so, it was a good thing for the labor movement in a sense.
Did Gorman seek out Fur and Leather shortly after Fineglass started.
Yes.
Because he felt that Fineglass wasn't …
Well no, who knows how they get wind, but they knew that we were looking
for a home. At least, I assume they did. They also knew that they needed
… that they couldn't get to first base in Leather, there was no way they
could. They used to attack the shit, we beat them so goddamn bad … even
while they were out front
So the workers …
So they went into the committee … a committee of six or eight and they represented all the departments … they were the real leadership in the plant, and they said "Now look, you came and asked us if you could visit the people, and we said ‘go ahead’, and you've been around here now for three or four weeks, and now we tell you you've visited them, you know what they have to say, we don't want you around here no more because we are going into a battle with our company, and it is a pretty tough company, and we don't want to fight with you at the same time." One of the guys got pretty smart and he said "We've got a right to be around here and nobody is going to tell us we can't be." I said, "That is alright with us, do you see that creek there," that is, the Pigeon River flows behind the plant, "If you are around here again after we give you this warning, you're going to be swimming out of that goddamn river every day."
Were these Amalgamated organizers?
Yeah. "You're going to be swimming out of that goddamn river every day and you may not swim out, they …"
And seven years later they took you in.
Oh, they took us in whileManny … Manny was down in Texas raiding other plants. They sent him down there …
Well, let me ask you then … this Brody book again talks about the merger agreement. There were lots of other things favorable for fur in other regions, you kept your autonomy, you …
Oh yes, yeah.
You had a separate … separate …
Division, you know that is why we have a Division in the International.
Abe was head of the …
Separate identity, Abe was Vice-President, and we also got a guy from Leather, so we had two Vice-Presidents, and now, look at them today, you see, when you stop and look what it did … we've got Abe and Steve …
Who?
Steve Coyle … Steve became the Vice-President. See, they had no Leather
division, it was the Fur and Leather, but we got two Vice-Presidents.
Abe became the Vice-President of the Fur and Leather Department. Steve
was just a Vice-President and began to do odd jobs for Gorman … today he
is the Vice-President of the Poultry and Food Processors … Poultry,
Seafood and Food Processors Department, Ervin Stern was also an editor,
as well as an
Your Vice-President?
Yeah, he was a leader of our union and became that. He became the Vice-President for District One of the Amalgamated Meatcutters Union, the biggest district in the entire International, 90,000 people, as well as the local union, I forget, he is either the President of the local or he's the general organizer, whatever he is, he is the key guy.
Did you get to be a Vice-President too?
No, no. I could have had Steve's job, but I didn't want to go …
Didn't want to do it?
I didn't want to be Furman's boy. I didn't want to run around for Gorman. Secondly, I wanted to work in the field. I don't like office work or this shit … carrying somebody's message for them. I want to make my own decisions. Steve was a good guy, don't get me wrong on this. We've got a progressive guy. Both the guys we put in as VP's were progressive guys.
You could have gone in at that time?
At that time, yes. Steve would have stepped aside and wouldn't have even argued. Him and I and a couple more were up, and there would have been no question about my getting the backing, and I didn't want to leave here, and I didn't want to quit field work. I was very, very … I was a little bit more suspicious of the Amalgamated than many others were. I had a feeling that they weren't going to last very long. I was wrong, you know, but it was a feeling that I had then. My time was limited with the Fur and Leather Workers … with the Amalgamated. They knew who I was, it wasn't that people like myself wasn't known … just as well as Ben Gold and others except …
You weren't as well known as Beard?
No, what I am saying, it was well known by the people who had the know, like the FBI, and the Amalgamated. Because whoever the FBI knew, I am sure the Amalgamated got through somebody, you know.
Well that brings me to my next question. Is part of the merger agreement every official of Fur and Leather had to sign …
A non-Communist affidavit, did it for years, in fact.
So you signed that paper?
Yeah, because … but they are talking there about a member of the
Communist Party. I don't know …
So you signed it?
Yeah, everybody did.
And it went on to the Amalgamated records and so you could keep …
Well, yeah … technically we were right, you know, and they knew it. They knew it didn't mean anything.
Well did they put that in the merger agreement so they could show Meany?
Well, that is the only way they got any blessing from Meany on the deal, you see. Not Meany, Meany was a son-of-a-bitch, but also Bedensky was a bastard, you see … who were radically opposed. You see, Meany had his negotiating to do with the old guard Socialists, you see, who were bitterly opposed to arguing to come back to the AF of L. In fact, it took a number of meetings with Meany and a number of meetings with the Executive Board before it was finally okayed. They kept attaching conditions, I mean the conditions on the thing …
They had to go through this New York City purge.
Yeah … Leon Strauss, Joe … what's his name? Isn't it funny the way names go out of my head nowadays that I'm getting old. Anyway, all kinds of our guys, Jack Snyder, people like that had to go, you know.
But Fineglass was interested in getting the merger through so he did what he had to do in New York City.
Right.
Do people hold that against him?
No, I don't think so. Gold did for many years and probably does yet, but I don't … I'm not even sure about that … I know Potash don't … you know old Potash isn't where he is, so at least I don't believe he does. They speak at dinners for these people and things. For instance, they had a dinner for Leon Strauss, everybody comes … the old guys, the guys who are gone, you know. They meet, they have drinks together. I think there is still some bitterness on Ben's part, how much, I don't really know. I haven't seen Ben now in many years, and I don't even see Abe anymore, you know.
He travels around.
Well, he travels, but we're busy too, you see, and they cut off certain lines of communication. So when they cut off organizational staff meeting and things like that, you see.
Well, what did you feel like then when you were
Oh no, never. See, even when he does something that is commendable, I suppose you can say is commendable, when he stands up and roars, I know that is about all he is going to do about it, you know. It's like on wage and price control, and things like this, he has no great pretention of shaking anything to the roots or doing anything that is basic. George is beyond …
You mean even in 1955?
Even in those days. See, Meany was a right trade unionist, an old craft unionist. We knew what he was and we know that if his own position is threatened, he may fight, but he and the system is like that, he and the political forces are like that …
But Fineglass did think it was important to get the Executive Committee to okay that merger?
Oh yes, no argument there.
So you would have that umbrella?
So you would have that umbrella … you know, when it rains or sleets,
you've got to do something sometimes. Maybe we could have survived, you
know. Who the hell knows in retrospect and political Monday morning
quarterbacking is simple sometimes, to think that, "Well
You would have been too vulnerable a point for attack?
Well, I think that if we hadn't of been in … already went in and shown that you could live inside the Meatcutters that the Packing House Workers wouldn't have dared do it. Their struggles with Amalgamated were much more bitter than ours. Ours was over a few Locals in Leather, they didn't have enough to make us any great trouble. Whereas the battles between the Packing House Workers Union and Amalgamated were … Christ they …
Well, they never did merge, did they?
Well, they did merge, but only after we merged, but their battles were
damn near … were tremendous struggles over thousands and thousands of
workers, you see, and when they met on the battle field, hell they
weren't talking about 150 tannery workers … 200 or something
One more question about the merger. Did you have any direct part in talks with Fineglass and with Gorman?
No, no. We were constantly posted about the thing, you see, because he couldn't have made the merger if he didn't. Because even guys like me, I had doubts about it too, you know. Everybody had fears about it and we just, he couldn't have done it. It was a very close liason between all of our people, all groups. And sure, we … Abe did most of the negotiating … I don't think …
Did Abe inform them?
Yeah, well Abe and Harry Poole. Not Gorman, even. Gorman didn't take
part. He may have in some talks, but the initial conditions, I think,
were worked out between Poole and basically Fineglass … he might have
had a guy with him now and then, but I am sure you know that … but Abe
kept everybody. We knew what was going on all the time, you know. There
was never any question, and oh no, it would have been too easy for Gold
to stop the merger that … of course, see, Gold would have already been
gone a year, it was the year … whatever it
Well that brings us to a certain point. From then until now you have been with Meatcutters.
Right … quite a few years with them, you know? I was looking back the other night at those. It don't seem like its been almost 20 years. It's just goddamn close.
You have been with the Meatcutters a lot longer than you were with …
Fur and Leather Workers, yeah, that's right. In terms of time, I suppose
it could be divided that way, but in terms of education and
understanding, there's no approach. But we are still with the Fur and
Leather, you know. I don't have much left. I have a couple of leather
plants, and … but what the hell is the difference? We did something we
used to talk about. Here, we are doing something we used to talk about.
We had some real problems following the merger. We had guys who were
excellent fellows. Real progressive trade union guys who pursued the
most sectarian policy inside the Amalgamated for years, and they had
made us some troubles too. I mean what the hell, what is the job of a
progressive trade union guy inside of an organization like Amalgamated?
First of all, it's to build where you can build, and secondly, to
influence
Agriculture …
Agriculture Workers Union, Sheep Shearers Union, and a number of other smaller unions. And someday, we will probably merge with the retail clerks RDVSU and maybe both. But what the hell, the union today is a much more progressive voice. We've got blacks in leadership moving in there. We've never had that before. We have women in leadership, never had them before. I am talking not just on a local basis but on an international scale. Who the hell is known better around the country in the women's movement than Hattie Wyatt? A black, you know, terrific. Gorman used to be so opposed to a woman even being an international rep, or a business agent. They figured all she was good for was screwing, you know, go to bed with and get the guys in trouble and all kinds of … But it proves out differently. Given the real opportunity of a woman really getting recognition based upon ability …
Did Gorman let that happen? Did he push that, allowing that kind of leadership to surface?
I don't think he could help to … See, you know how forces build up, you know the dynamics of these things. When unions like ours and Packing House begin to play a real role, put women in places and he can't hardly resist, you see. And then came the Civil Rights movement … of course, Gorman was always decent on these issues, I don't think that Gorman was any whore or anything like that. He was weak maybe many times in enforcing things, simply because, you have to know the structure of the Amalgamated, you understand, to know why there were these weaknesses. And there were weaknesses.
There were very autonomous international unions.
Very autonomous locals. You had … you know, most unions are structured, you have locals, districts, and then the international. The result is you had a line of communications that touches two or three bases going down through and back up through, but here you got districts, but they are shit in most cases. Then you got up on the top the king and the barons, you see, running the locals, and that is about the way it works.
That's good for you, or is that bad?
Well, it's good … no, it has both good and bad aspects, you see. It is
good in the sense that the
That is the National Pay Board you are talking about?
Yes, and put a Chinese Wall around us as they call it. Which meant that
we couldn't ask the Pay
Why pick out the Carolinas?
Well, Carolina is a big geographical entity and my guess, also, is that we were here.
Which year was this?
Pay work period, and for instance they got a guy in Atlanta, who is a good guy, I like him. But he is a pure and simple trade unionist. The Vice-President down there is a guy named Shark, a real whore, he's a wheeler and dealer, hasn't any thing on the ball. This kind of deal, you see, and what I guess is that on the Pay Board, Poole, Jack Boyd and a few guys who are representatives, gave them the right down there … got from the employers the right that they would support parity from them, providing that they didn't have to give parity for the Carolinas. That's just between you and me, don't say anything.
Okay.
They would agree to Virginia because Washington locals come down into
Virginia too, that's another reason of course. But now the Pay Board is
gone and this fall we
That's kind of a … what can I say, an indication we can lead up to. Let's talk next time about '55 up to the present.
Alright.
Because that is when you were a meatcutter then in some ways. Thanks a lot.
END OF INTERVIEW