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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0047-1, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Mabel Pollitzer was born in Charleston, South Carolina, in 1885. After graduating from Memminger, an all-girls school in Charleston, Pollitzer went to Columbia University, where she majored in science and education. After graduating in 1906, she returned to South Carolina to become a biology teacher at Memminger. Pollitzer taught for over forty years and also became involved in various civic activities during the first half of the twentieth century. In this interview, she describes her family background and the personal influence of her father's community involvement while she was growing up. In addition, she describes her participation in the women's suffrage movement in South Carolina. In particular, Pollitzer recalls her belief that pursuing national suffrage was more important than winning suffrage state by state, and as a result, she involved herself in the National Woman's Party. Pollitzer describes how politicians, notably Woodrow Wilson, responded to women's demands for suffrage, and she discusses her perception of women's rights leaders like Susan Frost, Ruth McInness, and Alice Paul. Aside from her advocacy of women's rights, Pollitzer also engaged in various community-centered projects. Here, she focuses on the ways in which she found ways to get her female students interested in science, and she describes her role in such community initiatives as banning the sale of fireworks and helping pass legislation for a free library in Charleston.
Mabel Pollitzer was born Charleston, South Carolina, in 1885. After graduating from Columbia University in 1906, she returned to Charleston to teach biology at Memminger, an all-girls school. Pollitzer describes her involvement in the women's suffrage movement, her perception of politicians and women's rights leaders, and her civic work within the community of Charleston.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
So you think that picketing helped the cause and didn't hinder it.
If they hadn't been picketing they might not have gotten it for years. It helped it so greatly! It was only when they picketed, it was when they had these bonfires, it was when they did everything to bring it to the attention of the people. These marvelous women. They would soak, first it was wood, in oil. And the urns in which they lighted the bonfires were so high. And these dear little young women would keep the fires burning as a reminder.
Where were these binfires?
In Washington, near the White House gates. And that just infuriated the
people. One after the other was taken to jail. That's all told in this
wonderful book. (The Story of the Woman's Party by
Inez Haynes Irwin, published by Harcourt, Brace and Co.) I have several
copies; they are Anita's. I'm not lending them to anybody. One of the
dear ladies of the NOW said "Could I borrow it?" I could let her "come
around to the house and spend days reading it, but I have no right to
let it get out of the house." I mean even with the best of
intentions.
I'll come back one day and do this. And take notes.
But you asked me if the picketing helped. It was the
Were there bonfires lit and kept lighted locally?
No. I know of no bonfires except at the Capital. It was to remind the Senators and the Congressmen and to remind the president that state by state suffrage was coming. But it should be that national amendment that had been introduced into Congress. The vote for women, for which they had been fighting for forty-eight years, but intensely fighting since 1913. The National Woman's Party was organized January 2, 1913, and from then on the work was intense, but it became intense, intenser, and most intense around 1917. Then the strategy was to do everything to bring it about before 1920. You see, there was going to be a new election in 1920 between Harding and Cox. The whole aim was to get it speedily. And as I told you last time, at first Woodrow Wilson seemed in a stage almost of apathy toward women's suffrage.
Not antagonistic, just apathetic?
I would say it was apathetic. Then he became interested in getting it
state by state. And he worked to get suffrage in New York State. But the
National Woman's Party, who had introduced the national amendment,
wanted that amendment passed. Then the thing was to get Woodrow Wilson.
He then became really, deeply interested in having the amendment passed.
During ratification, when it was brought up before the different states,
he himself telegraphed the different governors in states where
ratification
What do you think he felt in his innermost being on this question? Do you believe he truly wanted the vote for women or was it politically expedient?
I know definitely it was politically expedient. In his heart, being the man he was, I feel, and I love Woodrow Wilson, I really feel that he must have seen that the cause was right and just. In this book one of the writers said it was something like a child ready to go to college. And nagging her father, nagging him, please to get the money so she could go to college. And although it seemed as though she was torturing her father all the time, yet in her heart she dearly loved her father. And that was the way it was described here. They made Woodrow Wilson almost, we might say, ashamed that our country did not have full democracy, when in Russia, in Austria, in Germany and in other parts of Europe they did have women voting. And here Wilson, at the Paris peace talks, urging democracy for all nations, and he did not say "but we do not have it in our own country."
We were talking last time about your visit to Susan B. Anthony's home in Rochester and the tape cut off before we got through with that little episode. I would like to hear more about it. I know that you had been at the University of Michigan and you stopped through Rochester en route to see your sister Anita Pollitzer, in New York. You had friends there, in Rochester, and you met the Mosher sisters and visited them. That's where we left off.
The Mosher sisters invited us to lunch. And they said one of the nicest places would be at the new airport in Rochester. The Moshers seemed to be very fond of us because, when their aunt, Susan B. Anthony, was honored by being in the New York University Hall of Fame, it was Anita, my sister, who handed the wreath to the niece, either Miss Marion Mosher or her sister Florence Mosher, to place the wreath. I don't know that you've been to the Hall of Fame. But it's a glorious out of doors place where those who deserve to be honored are honored in the Hall of Fame at New York University. Not downtown near 8th Street, but Washington Heights. Through suffrage Anita had known the two sisters.
So they were active, too.
I do not know to what extent. But Anita spent quite a while in Rochester
working for . . . well, I'm not sure whether it was working for suffrage
or for the Equial Rights Amendment. I cannot be sure of that. The
chances are it was Equal Rights Amendment. To see some of the
Congressmen and so forth who may have lived there. Notice the word "may"
because I cannot be sure. Anyway, so the Moshers invited us to the
airport. Of course they called for us. We were stopping at
And they said "Wouldn't you like to go through the house where Aunt Susan lived?" I can describe it as perhaps rather a simple home. Very lovely in every way. My recollection is that it was a rather narrow house, or appearing so. It was three stories, I think. And we went through the different rooms in which Aunt Susan did much of her work. And the table where she sat. And her various appertinances and so forth.
Was there, then, much memorabilia lying about?
Oh yes. I cannot remember just what we did see. But it was all very, very interesting.
Who is living there now?
Oh, it is kept as one of these treasured homes for the city. I'm not sure whether there was any admission charge, but I think there probably is a small amount. But being their guests, of course, we don't know about that being the guests of the nieces. But I think so because nearly all these homes that are kept in memory of a great person have to have admission charges in order to defray expenses.
What was most significant about that visit? What impressed you most about the tour of the home?
That we were in the home where this great woman lived. Where this great
woman had these ideas, ideas of working for Equal Rights. And was
brilliant. Of course you know whe was a school teacher. When she started
working for this cause, that women should vote, people would throw eggs
at her. She had to undergo all sorts of taunts and all sorts of things
that to some people would be humiliating. But she rose above
everything.
I correspond with the Mosher sisters. One of them passed away recently, but I correspond every year. One who was in Washington is now living in California. I can't be sure of the name. She just moved there a short time ago. But I have it in my address book. It's very nice to keep in touch with her and I tell her, of course, all about Anita.
Thank you for telling me about that visit. I'd like to know a little bit about your background. It is of considerable interest to people who are studying the history of women and the history of feminism, women's right movement, to know what kind of home life these women had. Were they inspired to this . . . activity by books around the house, by their father, by their mother? What was your home life like? Your childhood? What was your father like?
Oh my dear. Papa was a gentleman, to me, above all others. As a little child I felt papa's deep, ardent love for each one of us. At night he would sit by us very often and draw little pictures. And he would talk to us of things that we felt, even as little children, were so interesting and so worthwhile. And when we didn't want to go to bed and Mama would say "Time to go to bed," papa would say "All right, let's go up the steps together and when you come down look on the mantle piece and I'll have another drawing for you." Well of course, naturally, I Mabel, would be eager to go upstairs with father, get in bed, and in the morning first thing run to the mantle piece to see what drawing father had made.
And so your father was a capable artist.
An amateir artist. Father moved from the North, New York, to Beaufort,
S.C. when he was about thirteen years old. Knowing that there were no
colleges in Beaufort when father had had his early education with a very
fine teacher. I think it was a private school then, but I cannot be
sure. Then grandpa did a wonderful thing. In grandfather's family,
father, Gustave, was the eldest. That's my father. And then there was
Henry and Sigmund. I never knew how he got the name Sigmund, but he did.
And Richard. Then along came a little girl, Julia. So grandfather felt
it would be a very good idea to have a college graduate, educated along
all lines if possible, to be a tutor for all of his family. Under him,
papa pursued music and went on with music, in which father was gifted.
Played the finest classical pieces with my sister Carrie.1 Piano. But along with that also father was
educated in art. Papa drew beautifully. Nearly always, as far as I know,
in pencil or crayon. Shaded. Sometimes the drawings were maybe 15" by 8"
large. Well, after father finished the equivalent of a college
education, then he went into the cotton business, the ginning business,
with grandfather. And I always like to emphasize what the ginning
business in cotton was. Thinking of Eli Whitney. Because so many people
don't know what ginning is. They think of it as gin, a whisky. Father's
was in the cotton business. In Charleston there was a gentleman who was
also in the cotton business and knew grandfather very, very well. After
seeing father a few times, he said to grandfather "I want your son, Gus,
to be with me in the business. I love him as if he were my son. He will
be in my house just as a son would be.
Then your father went through a traditional, youthful upbringing of education and then early career, going into a career in his youth. What was his attitude toward women, toward rights for women? Could you sense anything from your association?
I cannot ever remember father discussing the injustice of women not voting. I don't remember either mother or father ever speaking of that. But papa was deeply interested and active in all that was good for the city. And as a young man he always felt it was worthwhile working in various organizations, without salary, for the good of his adopted city.
Was he interested in the question of legal rights, political rights, civil rights?
Father was interested in all questions that had to do with rights of people.
You heard discussions of this kind of question.
No, dear, I can't say that I ever remember any of those things. You see I was just twenty-four when papa passed away in 1909. And I was all involved in teaching. Not only teaching, but teaching a subject which was absolutely, at that time, new to the high schools in South Carolina. Biology. No one in South Carolina had taught biology. You see, I was deeply involved. I cannot remember that father ever worked or thought or perhaps discussed anything about women's rights.
If he didn't discuss women's rights, did you hear civil libertarian talk
at home, about civil rights and civil liberties, the
Can't say that I ever heard those discussions, in the early days
And what about your mother? Was she a traditional homemaker?
Let me say a word more, if you will, about father. When I said papa was so interested in getting absolutely the best for Charleston . . . they wanted father for mayor. But father's mind was really unusual. Clear, logical, and everybody would come, almost, to seek papa's opinion. I remember so well how those in office would come to this house and affectionately . . . they would often say "Polly, I've got to ask you something about this" or "I must tell you about this? What do you think about this?" Often called Polly by his devoted friends. The thing was that papa often said, had he been a lawyer, maybe people would have passed by his shingle. But not being a lawyer, everybody came to get advice. The mayor, the treasurer, the aldermen. And father was on, oh, so many committees! As a lay member he was on the board of Roper Hospital. Not a doctor. But they sought out his advice. And he was chairman of the first what was then called modern operating rooms in Charleston.
He was an involved citizen. You came into an involvement in political and civic affairs rather naturally because you had this in your earliest home life. Deep involvement . . .
Yes. I was inspired by papa because he was active. He was a member of the
board of health. And there's a beautiful story that I love to tell. Of
course it's a true story. When we moved into this
Tell me about your mother. Was she a traditional homemaker? Was she community involved?
Mama was a traditional homemaker who was principally involved in the
home, her precious husband and her darling children. Mother did take
interest in some Synagogue activities and she belonged to a
Was your mother well?
Yes, mama was remarkably well. I do not know just why papa didn't want mama to do the pedaling except that he loved her so much.
She was not a club woman or active in social affairs, only the synogogue's women's guild?
Just in what now has become the sisterhood, and later in the council of Jewish Women, a wonderful group.
Did she read a great deal?
Oh yes. In mama's later years, when she had time, I have never seen such
a reader, an avid reader. Book after book and always worthwhile. And the
marvelous thing is once mama had read a book she would usually start
right over, that same book, and look over it again. And she would have
it forever. She could tell you all the stories. I remember one occasion,
when I had something called paratyphoid—it wasn't typhoid but I had to
rest for many, many weeks—mother would read entire sets. All of
Stevensons. All of them sitting by my bedside. Reading to me. She was
really a precious love. I consider that we were among the most fortunate
of the fortunate in having
So you became familiar with literature at your mother's knee.
Definitely. And the best. And mother's English was so superior to so many people. And mother's corrections were darling. If I'd say "Mama, I'm going to pick out some material for a dress" mother would say "Mabel, not ‘pick out’ but ‘select.’ " Or whatever it was. Mother was a graduate of the Normal College of the City of New York in 1872. Now called Hunter College.
Where is that located? Where is the building?
It has moved from where it was in middle downtown New York to not so far from the new New York University where it is now. Washington Heights. But I visited the old Normal College in 1904. I went there and I saw the president of the college, Dr. Hunter, who said to me "I remember your mother." It was wonderful.
Where was your mother from originally?
Mama was born in Baltimore. Her father was one of the distinguished
scholars, authors and rabbis. Rabbi Aaron Guinzburg. In Austria, in
Prague, so much was thought of his ability to learn and the outlook, the
result you might say of his education, that the authorities made an
exception. At that time not one of the Jewish faith, no matter how
learned, had ever become a Ph.D. But they said for Rabbi Guinzburg we
make an exception and he will be Dr. Guinzburg. He was always known as
the Rev. Dr. Guinzburg. My mother was Clara Guinzburg, then becoming
Clara Guinzburg Pollitzer. And mother was born in Baltimore because
What was your mother's maternal heritage?
It sounds so proud if I tell you all these things. I only can tell you I
just feel the greatness. Mother and her family belonged to this
distinguished family of Kuh in Prague. They were a family in which there
were editors, lawyers, writers, doctors. And when Anita and father's
sister went over together and spent quite a long time in Austria, in
Vienna and in Prague, they went to the cemetary to look up the first
burial stones they could find of the family of Kuh. And there on the
earliest tombstone, in German "came or stemmed from Spain 1498" the time
shortly after Columbus went on his trips. And at that time the Jews were
terribly persecuted. There were the Inquisitions. So this family of Kuh
moved over to Prague. Prague and Vienna in those days were cultural
centers. So that was why they then went there. Of course there was
really no America in 1498. So that was the beginning of the
Tell me about the document that you have before you.
I'm holding in my hand here a copy of what was submitted to the Federation of Women's Clubs. I should say to the Charleston Federation of Women's Clubs. Here very often one is asked3 to submit a biography if you have done community or religious or educational work or all three for twenty-five years or more.
Well, of course, as I started very early, my first big activity was the Civic Club. Dated from about 1912 or 1913, shortly after I finished college in 1906. Because then the Charleston Civic Club, I felt, was most community minded and doing wonderful work. And it was shortly after I joined that they said to me "It seems like you would be a fitting chairman of the City Betterment Committee." I said I would be happy to serve if I could do it well. I never missed a meeting. I never knew how I did all these things.
This led you to involvement in all of these organizations, or in work with or cooperation with them. There's a great long list there. It's impressive.
These are the various things that I did. These are the various things in
which I felt I really was a pioneer. I said
There's a list of about twenty-five organizations here, all having to do . . .
They aren't organizations. All activities in which I pioneered. I pioneered in classroom—in school clubs.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
I'm using the word pioneered because I know of nobody who did many of these things before these ideas came into my mind. And once they came into my mind, I just had to satisfy myself and work towards some goal.
So as a matter of fact you may have been involved with many more groups than appear?
Oh yes. These are the things that are outstanding. If I were to read a book I would say this and this and this. Anyway, the point is, I did pioneer in classroom and school activities, city activities, county activities, state activities, and national activities. My national activities involved at one time when I felt there should not be capital punishment. Now I'm on the fence. I don't know. National activities certainly were the National Women's Party with suffrage. And after suffrage I worked like a beaver without stopping to get the equal rights amendment passed. I would say educational activities were of course my primary, primary interest. Naturally, being a teacher.4 And I did a great deal of press work and had many things published. I wrote a great many publications. I wrote plays for the school, plays for the health board.
I hope they've got them on file.
I do not know. But anyway, one was concerning antimosquito work and so
on. Another—they dramatized this, really I attended to it—was on first
aid, given before our whole school body. And it went over beautifully.
It was Dr. First Aid and so forth. I was chairman of the City Betterment
Committee, as I said, of the Civic Club of Charleston. And I was the
founder of plant exchange day in March, 1915. At that time I had never
heard of any plant exchange in the South. But I saw a wheelbarrow of
violet plants, roots just as fresh with the earth on it. And this
wheelbarrow of plants was about to be dumped just one block away from
us. When I saw the wastage, I thought "My, the people who would love to
get violets." Because violet plants then were gradually disappearing.
Well, I spoke of it at the Civic Club. I went to a physician, not mine,
but one who thought the world and all of father and had worked with
father in Roper Hospital and health boards and so on. I asked him, as he
was also a botanist, "you know, I'd like to send out return postal cards
to many who have lovely gardens where the surplus, instead of being
wasted, could enter the gardens of somebody desiring these plants." And
he said "A wonderful idea." We had circulars and everything. Tremendous
advertisement through the Civic Club. I had one hundred on my committee.
Because we had to have committees on collection, after we knew who would
cooperate. We had to have committees on distribution. I received help,
of course, from the mayor, so we would have policemen so it wouldn't be
a grab festival. And we started the first plant exchange at Memminger
school, where I was teaching. Then I decided, to have great interest, we
would give a prize to the one
And some years afterwards, he became the director of our art gallery. He loved photography and art at that age. Robert N. Whitelow. Anyway, the point is, I worked very hard on plant exchange. And there was a very fine woman who was just as interested, I would say, as I was after I proposed the idea. Mrs. William Lanneau. After about four years, on one occasion—that was the time I think I had that paratyphoid or whatever it was—she took over. I realized I could not go on with this and with school and with everything else. So after about the fourth year, Mrs. Lanneau was chairman of it all. Did wonderful work for a long period of time.5 I liked the idea of having it in the schools in the afternoon, so that we could indoctrinate the school children with the idea of sharing. But later on, it became an activity taken over by the garden club. The Civic Club disbanded, by the way, some years ago.
Was the Civic Club women?
Only women. I was there at the meeting where we had to vote whether to disband and give all of our records to the South Carolina Historical Society. We turned over the Plant Exchange activity to the garden club. The garden club sees fit now to have it once a year at the museum. I don't want to criticize. If that's the way they want to do it. But I like the idea, as I said, of having the school children see the tables set up and the plants labeled and everything so they could have a part in it.
Speaking of garden clubs, how did the local garden clubs greet your Woman's Party activities in Charleston? Did they not cooperate at all? Were they disinterested totally?
I wouldn't use the word disinterested. I don't like to use the word ignored because I don't know that they were ignorant of it, but I've never heard of them wanting to do anything. This seems a rather strange thing perhaps. I was the first to have gardens in Charleston and garden clubs. Through our school activities, I felt we had the space to have a garden. Here these girls entering high school had never, never seen probably a radish growing or any of the plants. So I divided this large space into 150 little 3×6 plots. Then those plots were divided in half so that each one would have a little square. The reason there was 150 was because 150 new pupils came to high school every year. Thirty in a class, five sections. It was all the lowest class, but divided into five sections.
The girls loved gardening time. Usually we started it maybe early in the morning. And a girl would say, for instance, "my bean has been cut down." I'd say "let's see what was the hungry insect." And we'd dig and we'd find a cut worm. How could we be smarter than the cut worm? We would make a little collar of cardboard and put it around the stem of the bean. And in that way they learned the relation of plants and animals. It was really a great experience.
—human ingenuity. So Memminger High School was a female high school.
Only girls until shortly before, maybe about, 1945. I
Were you already teaching when you became active in the suffrage movement?
I graduated from Columbia University in 1906. Before I graduated I had
this precious letter from my principal, whom I adored, I venerated, I
venerate his memory. Maybe I told you that I was still a senior in high
school—or then it was high and normal. So I was a senior really in the
second year of the normal school when he said to me "Miss Mabel, no
biology is taught in South Carolina. When you graduate I want you to
come back here and I want you to be on my faculty." His name was William
Knox Tate, one of the grandest men that ever lived. Six feet four.
Beautifully proportioned. And as he stood in front of me, maybe about
two months before I graduated, his first question was "Miss Mabel, are
you sure you're going to college?" I said "Definitely." "Where?"
"Columbia University. I'm going to register at Teachers College." He
said "Then I appoint you right now to be on our faculty." I said "Mr.
Tate, that is a wonderful thing. I know you mean it and I'm happy to
accept." Then he said "Now you will have very big offers before you
graduate from Columbia. Don't feel because I've asked you that you will
be impelled to return to Memminger. But I want you." I did have very big
offers. The first position for which I was asked was to teach laboratory
work at the University of Pennsylvania. It wasn't a temptation for me.
No. I knew Mr. Tate. I really revered him. He was so wonderful. I cannot
tell you just all in all what he was to me. But such an ideal teacher.
So understanding. Well, I turned to Dr. Henry Crampton,
You taught a combination of botany and biology and . . .
Botany was in the lowest class. Zoology was in the
And you taught them all?
My classes were very large. The first year we had no laboratory. Mr. Tate the Principal wanted me to plan my laboratory. He was so wonderfully understanding. He realized that the greater responsibility a person had, if he had any brains at all, he would rise to the occasion and act in a worthwhile way. So he said "Miss Mabel, for the first year you are teaching, it will be in a small classroom." Well, we had long tables and many chairs. The teaching was under the most adverse conditions. But I was there to inspire the girls to want more. He had always said a teacher's work could end if the girls were so interested that they would get for themselves more and more. Then you can not stop them. And I felt that was my mission. To get them to say they wanted more and more.
I wonder if you became interested in the position of women as a result of being mentor to so many young women. If you became eager for the cause of their betterment.
At that time . . . you see, this was 1906 as I say, I started teaching at high school and normal school. I don't believe I ever gave it a thought really. My thought was on my girls.
But don't you think your experiences with them were planting little seeds that would later germinate?
I can't say, really. I was terribly involved in many things. I had
wonderful notebooks. The drawing was perfectly marvelous that these
girls did. Their sketches, their desire to excell. And later
What I'm trying to do is to discover what triggered your interest and dedication to the cause of women's rights.
Dear, I think it was Alice Paul. When she founded the National Women's Party on January 2, 1913, and later my sister Anita's involvement
But how did you know she was even doing it?
Susan Pringle Frost was such a wonderful woman in Charleston, South Carolina who was chairman first of the Equal Suffrage League and then The Congressional Union, then split later on.6 As I said, some didn't want picketing and some wanted to belong to the National American Woman Suffrage Association. Carrie and I and Anita felt definitely we wanted to belong to the group that had split from the National American Women's organization, this group led by Alice Paul. Marvelous woman! No one can conceive of the greatness of Alice Paul. Not only her training. Her marvelous Quaker background. Her cause for what was right. Her inspiration as a leader. Her wisdom and intelligence. And just add to that every good quality and wonderful thing you can think of. We felt that getting it state by state, as presented by Susan Pringle Frost through Alice Paul, would be a great mistake. It would delay it for years. And as I said before, one legislature could undo the good work of a preceding group of legislators.
Tell me about your relations with Senator Pollock, who was
I did not know him personally. Anita did wonderful work with him, of which I will tell you in a little while. But I was chairman of the press. I won't call it committee because there was nobody else. But for years Miss Frost did a great deal in press work as chairman of the South Carolina branch of the National Women's Party. For years she did the press work. When I thought she began to be a little bit elderly—now I think she was still young.
How old was that?
I cannot tell you. And I was wanting to phone to St. Michael's, where she
worshipped every Sunday. I wanted to find out what is the date on her
gravestone or in their records when she died. I'm not sure. Maybe I can
still do that. I cannot tell you when she died. But I did a tremendous
lot for her. So that I was really the acting chairman. For years and
years. I would go to see her. She would impart information to me. And
there was another very wonderful worker, of the Business and
Professional Women's Club, Mrs. Ruth McInnes. She lives in Charleston
for years as the wife of Dr. McInnes. Later in life she moved to
Greenville. As long as she was in Charleston, when telegrams were
needed, I would say "Ruth"—her maiden name was Ruth Wilson—"please get
off a dozen telegrams through the Business and Professional Women's
Clubs." She did. But Anita had spoken before the Business and
Professional Women's Club. And there was Marion Paul and Ann Mott, and
as I say, Ruth McInnes. I can name many more who, having heard Anita,
were inspired. And they continued to help
In our back yard there was a cistern covered over with cement, probably for the same reason.
And probably a little board that you could move from time to time. We too
have a cistern because this house was built in about 1835. And I
remember father's care in always washing off the roof
Of course whoever is researching the Pollitzer sisters in Charleston and their contributions will have access to documents, too.
Well, what I'm telling you is pretty much what I told to the group from the Charleston Federation of Women's Clubs. I would like to speak of this with my school girls, because I thought doing things with school girls, to reach into the homes, was an enlarging factor, we might say, of their lives. In the early days women vendors would come to the house with a big bundle of whatever it might be. Dogwood, or beautiful flowers, or broken-off sprays of Holly or Jessamine. Whatever they could get. So we started first Save the Holly Club. It was a club to save the Holly. And the girls belonging to that club would tell their mothers not to buy the Holly when it was sold at the front doors because it meant that a Holly tree—which is very slow growing—had been mutilated. Damaged the growth. Insects and fungi would get into the broken tissue of the plant. Well, from the save the holly club, we went to Save the Wildflower Club. And that led to legislative ruling that no wild flowers could be picked within fifty feet of the roadside.
Miss Pollitzer, I see that you were an activist in so many areas beside women's rights.
The reason I was active in the different areas is because the lives of these girls covered so many areas.
The whole thing is the living of your philosophy.
Well, that's very sweet to say so. But that is just what I felt. Now
later on I worked for legislative action, first in our city. I'm just
wondering if I'm forgetting any particular school activity, but I will
glance over anything later on, because I did make a few notes. But this
was very dear to my heart. We just had to have a ban on the sale and
discharge of fireworks. Now we all know the danger and damage done. In
one of our schools in the city, a little girl was told that her little
firecracker was out. And she wanted to see if she had to use a punk and
light it again. She leaned over it. Well, the firecracker wasn't out. It
exploded. She lost her eye. We knew of the danger. Another child thought
it would be fun if they put the firecracker in the mouth and light it.
And another one in the ear. And they did stupid things. At one of our
private schools some boys, not students, thought it would be fun to
throw a lighted pack of firecrackers into a soft coal bin. And here,
among this bituminous coal—this was at Ashley Hall—in this bin
containing I don't know what quantity of bituminous coal, the fire
crackers set it on fire. I saw boys not far from here light a pack of
firecrackers, throw it into a letter box, and then hide behind a near
corner. So that when the children would see somebody coming, they would
run. They wanted to find out the dismay when these firecrackers went
off. The lady thought she was going to have a letter. But instead of
that, there was an explosion. I thought that must not be. I went to Mr.
Rogers, who was at that time the principal of Memminger. George C.
Rogers, the father of the history professor. And I said "Mr. Rogers, you
were principal where that little girl in your school was blinded. Come
with me. We're going to talk at city council. You will
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
—setting all this lumber on fire. That led to a very wonderful law that
no lumber mills from that time on could be in the city of Charleston.
Because huge pieces of timber were found three and four blocks away
where the wind carried it. So, as I say, being interested in
fireworks (I've turned all these things over to Miss Sanders, the head
librarian.) [Interruption.]
Your working to secure the vote in favor of the free library gave you valuable practice, I would imagine, in stumping for passage of the equal rights amendment.
Dear, I can't say there was anything connected with it at all. You see, it is Anita who has spent her entire life, we might say, working for, in later years, the equal rights amendment. Until, of course, she became not well enough to continue. But I have had, as you know, many interests. I cannot say they were directed directly to women in any way. I wanted the library for women, men and children.
I understand, but I'm saying the political experience you gained in working to get this measure passed you could certainly have put to use in the interest of getting suffrage passed.
The Susan B. Anthony Amendment was passed in 1920. I worked for that. The passage of the Library Bill came ten years later. Working for Suffrage helped politically with the Library Bill.
I feel if you are built in a certain way and if a thing is right, you don't stop just because you see a stone in the pathway. If a thing is right, keep on. Don't let any little difficulty be an insurmountable object. Now the reason I was told it couldn't be passed was because it hadn't been passed the previous year and they had gone in on voting for no increase in millage. That's why we were so involved in getting the vote. But after all, you've got to have a logical mind. And if more money comes in to the county than what goes out of the county, why then that is good. Well, that's pretty much the story of the County Library.
You've asked me to tell you of the events
So you have documents really substantiating all of your civic work. In this civic work, you came into contact with a number of leading South Carolina politicians and Charleston political figures.
Some. I wouldn't say so many. When I felt the time was needed, then I
would go to the very highest of whomever was needed. But in between
times, I mean I just did the regular things in school, many cultural
activities, household affairs, or whatever it might be. I'd like to say
how we got this building at the corner of Rutledge and Montague. The
number is 94 Rutledge - the first library building. It was a beautiful
mansion. When the time came that we had to move, I thought right away of
this beautiful residence. It had been my father's first home. Because
you'll remember the gentleman who knew grandfather wanted father to live
with him. I knew of the large grounds. It was then owned by Mr. Henry
Ficken, who
I thought that you were working for the free public library in about 1915.
Plant exchange in 1915. So this telegram came from this fine minister of
the St. Andrews Lutheran Church. His name is Dr. Charles B. Foelsch.
Lovely gentleman. Just lovely in every way. He was the first president
of our library board. He was one who also helped. He went up to Columbia
and helped with the delegation urging them—although as I say, they
really, by that time, didn't need urging—but to see that they held true
to their word that they would vote for it. We had quite a delegation
going up to Columbia. I did not go. I stayed here and worked getting
telegrams to bring pressure. But Dr. Foelsch was great. And he is
living. An elderly gentleman now, with a church in New York. I hear of
him from time to time. He wrote me a beautiful letter. I've turned that
over, also, to the library. Now the point was, here I was and I wanted
that building. And Mr. Ficken would not give it. But as I said, this
telegram came from Dr. Foelsch, then spending a little time in Florida.
He said "Miss Mabel, please go to the auction and bid in for 94
Rutledge. We must have that building." I had never been to an auction in
my life. And I thought, how would I go about such a thing. Moreover, I
was in school and I would never desert my duties and pleasures. I phoned
to Mr. Homer Pace, grand gentleman. Oh, we had wonderful gentlemen on
our board. He was the first vice president. I phoned to him and I said
"Leave everything, Mr. Pace, if you can. Be present at the auction. Try
not to exceed $10,000." That was what we had said we would spend if
necessary. Mr. Ficken, the
I can see from your activities in the community that you are a civic minded person who is interested in bettering her environment and I'm sure that your interest in women's rights fits into this general category of activity, too.
Definitely. I feel I am what I am because, not only of my forbears, who
were very civic minded . . . Grandfather in Beaufort did wonderful
things. My grandfather Guinzburg died before I was born and I do not
know a great deal of him except as I said, writer, scholar and author
and rabbi. And the wonderful part, he was a pioneer in having less
conservative Judaism and having reform Judaism. That was grandfather and
he really was a pioneer in that long before
But as far as active women were concerned, you really had no role model did you? Your role model was your father. You had no woman active in the community active—
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
Tell about your trusteeships in the city of Charleston.
Well, it was before 1930. The museum had a campaign for membership. I was
asked to serve, which of course I gladly did. Because our museum being
the very oldest museum in the country is well known, even abroad. I did
get so many memberships that at the next meeting one of the gentlemen
proposed that I should be a member of the board of trustees, which I
gladly accepted if I could help in any way. It was the following year
that they then appointed me secretary to the board of trustees. I served
not only as trustee but as secretary to the board of trustees until
about 1964. I think it was the longest secretaryship in the history of
the museum. And I'm happy to say that except for illness on one
occasion—it wasn't I who was ill, but a member of the family—I didn't
miss a meeting. As such, it gave me an opportunity to write letters of
thanks and appreciation to the many worthwhile men and women who gave
gifts to the museum. Archer M. Huntington and his wife. Mr. Huntington
gave Brookgreen Gardens to the state. I remember the beautiful letter I
had from him. All of these things, of course, I've
Was this an unusual appointment?
Yes. That was in the very early days. I do not know whether I was the first woman. But I was among the first. I may have been the first. I don't know. And I was trustee, for five years, of our congregation.
Have Carrie and Anita been active in synagogue work?
Yes. Carrie was a teacher in one of the classes for many years. A very
fine teacher, having had kindergarten and so forth as a background. And
loved teaching. Anita did excellent work, too, in our Sunday school,
Sabbath school. Anita, right after college, became head instructor of
art at the University of Virginia. And then the following year . . . in
fact before the following year, she joined the national woman's party.
And they recognized that she was outstanding in every way. She has
hardly been in Charleston since 191611 except for 6 months and visits. But Anita had a wonderful
Sunday school class that she taught. She was then in High and Normal
School. Many of our leading citizens here look upon it with joy and
appreciation if they had Anita as a Sunday school teacher. She did all
of her teaching in a very original way. Again, to inspire, we might say,
not only the pupils but to get them to have enough interest that they
would want
But you have certainly been active in many, many different kinds of organizations.
Many fields. They wanted me, of course, to be president of the Civic Club of Charleston. That, at that time, was such an enormous undertaking because it had so many different branches. You see, the Civic Club, in the earliest days, wanted a library. And that was why, when Miss McBee was president of the Civic Club, they really wanted a library. I don't want to disperage anything that very wonderful Dr. McBee did. But she just felt because the legislators said it couldn't be done that it couldn't be done. But I felt I wanted to point the way.
Did you hold office in the women's party before the 19th Amendment was passed?
I never held office before the suffrage amendment was passed, no. I guess
I could say I did hold office because I was press
chairman for a long while. I wrote to Sen. Pollock.
As press chairman did you write to Sen. Tillman?
I do not remember I ever wrote to him.
Did you have letters from both of them?
I know I had letters from Sen. Pollock.
That's it. The Charleston Museum and the Charleston—
I have told the highlights of these things. And of course telling this
story to you is really very interesting. The getting of the library.
Extremely interesting throughout the years. The tremendous expansion.
Instead now of working for five years on the sum of $30,000 for each of
the five years. That was all it was. $30,000 for each of the five years.
The number is now perfectly tremendous. On the payroll. Numbers of
branches, numbers of workers at each branch, another book mobile we're
getting now. I just got a letter. I get all the information, of course,
as honorary trustee. And I did attend a meeting not long ago. Miss Emily
Sanders wrote me the most beautiful letter of appreciation and that the
board members were happy to have me present and so forth. The Cooper
River Library. The Cooper River Memorial. That is now having an
addition. It's one thing after another. The West Ashley had a large
addition to the library. And the growth of it, starting from humble
beginnings in the small place that was given to us by the Charleston
museum. And the funny part, the museum trustees wanted us to get out.
And here I was, trustee of the library and trustee and secretary of the
museum. I would explain to them, we wanted to get out too, but we have
to have a building. That was why then I worked so hard to get the 94
Rutledge house, which Mr. Ficken was unseccessful in selling until he
finally turned it over to us. Oh, this is rather interesting. Before I
thought that we would purchase it, I went to the office of Mr. Albert
Simons. A truly great architect. Lover of Charleston. One of the writers
of the octagon library of architecture. It's like saying the Bible of
architecture. I said "Mr. Simons, come with me. We do
The great thing was when we opened at the Charleston museum, and then we opened again at 94 Rutledge. And it was even a greater day when we opened at King and Calhoun.
I thank you for your recollections.
My recollections also include that I was present at each one of the
openings of the branch libraries. And I remember so well getting a
photograph. It was at Mt. Pleasant. Nobody thought of having a
photographer there. One of our trustees lived on Mt. Pleasant. I said to
him "May I use your phone. I have an idea." So I phoned to Mr. Howard
Jacobs, photographer in Charleston. "Mr. Jacobs, please leave
everything. Get over to Mt. Pleasant." I told him where we would meet
him to take him to the library. I wanted him there to record by
photograph the exercises of the dedication of the Mt. Pleasant library.
And he got there in time. It was wonderful and I was so happy. Because
somebody said, if you have an idea, don't let it die, if it's a good
idea.
END OF INTERVIEW