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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview G-0054, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Reflecting on her dedication to women's issues, Eulalie Salley, a suffragist from South Carolina, opens by discussing the reasons she believes the League of Women Voters failed to remain influential after women gained the vote in 1920. She argues that though the League could have captured women's interests by supporting specific campaigns and candidates, their commitment to nonpartisanship made them seem irrelevant. Before the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment, suffragists played an active part in South Carolina's political system, and Salley explains how she and other reformers structured their organizations, who their key political allies were, and which women rose to leadership positions. When the South Carolina branch became more organized and influential, the national suffrage organization sent Lola Trax to Columbia to speak before the state legislature. When Trax implemented large publicity stunts to mobilize support, the local women found themselves open to unprecedented censure as other men and women called the femininity of the suffragists into question. Though Salley supported partisanship after gaining the vote, she disagreed with the women's alliance with the temperance movement, believing it cost them supporters. In 1915, Salley launched a successful real estate business. Though she encountered some resistance, she linked her activism to her business ventures and gained sales opportunities. She discusses how she balanced her work and family and reflects on whether hiring a nanny was a good decision. Salley describes her impressions of Jeannette Rankin's political and social activism. She also talks about meeting Rankin in 1970 as the two former colleagues relived their activist days.
Eulalie Salley, a suffragist from South Carolina, describes the effort of American suffragists to bring about the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment, the issues that mobilized male and female supporters of women's suffrage, important leaders in the movement, and the issues facing women today.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Why do you think that the League of Women Voters never got off to a strong and successful start?
Because when the women were given the vote they were all anxious to go to
the polls and cast their vote, but
You believe that this was a mistake?
I think that was a flaw in the first constitution of the League of Women Voters.
There was no one special cause that it promoted then as the suffrage organization had promoted a cause?
No. The suffrage organization had the one and sole purpose of gaining the
votes for women. [Mrs. Frank] Leslie's idea was when they got the vote,
she should educate the women in the intelligent use of the ballot.
Well,
We all have our specific interests.
I didn't stay one but that's how I started out. I said if the devil himself ran against Jesus Christ and one was a Democrat, I'd vote for the Democrat.
Anyway, that was what made a lot of women lose interest in that League of Women Voters. Now they started studying the different branches of government. You're a typical League of Women Voters woman. You are a highly educated sensitive woman. You are way over the heads of the rabble. You don't see from the voting box. I can get down on the level with the common voter and I don't say you've got to stick to one party or the other. I'll say, you vote as your conscience tells you. This is non-partisan. You can't take sides. I think that one-time non-partisanship was what destroyed a lot of the efficency of the League.
I think that they've modified this position somewhat in today's League of Women Voters. They don't endorse candidates but they support issues. They take a position on issues and support them.
Yes. Well, that's beating the devil around
That's a cute expression.
Don't you think it is? Don't commit yourself.
Tell me something about the Suffrage League in South Carolina. How was it structured? What was its organizational scheme——the top personality, the chairwoman and on down, how was it structured?
It was started really by Mrs. Harriet P. Lynch in Cherau, South Carolina.
Was she Mrs. or ‘miss?’
Mrs. She was a great friend of Senator [Willima P.] Pollock. Did you ever hear of him?
Yes, you spoke of him.
He helped us a great deal in Congress and then later in the legislature. He and Mrs. Lynch came down here to Aiken and helped us with this little league down here. We had a big parade. They rode in the parade. I have a picture that they made with Senator Pollock and Mrs. Lynch.
This should be in Emily's book.1
It will be.
What does the ‘P’ stand for, Harriet P. Lynch?
I don't know what it stands for. [Powe] Don't put this in but he was
supposed to be in love with her and I
Yes. She was the first chairwoman, I guess.
She organized the first League in South Carolina.
Under her was there a group of vice-chairwomen? How was it structured?
There was a Mrs. Cathcart in Columbia. I have it in my diary. I'll get that diary out when I get it to the office and I'll be glad to let you see it. It will give you the names of the officers of the first organization. I don't remember it, it's so long ago.
There was a vice-chairwoman and you believe that the first one was from Columbia, Mrs. Cathcart?
Yes. It was one of two people. It was either Mrs. Cathcart or Susan Frost of Charleston.
Oh, yes, Susan Pringle Frost.
Yes. She was very prominent in the movement. That was before my day, before I got into the movement.
Under the vice-chairwomen how was the party organized?
Sort of hit and miss. They had no money. They had no organization to
amount to anything. When Miss Cathcart got these funds, she sent a
professional organizer
How did you spell Trax?
T-R-A-X. Lola Trax. She stayed in Columbia. I went up there and stayed with her. We organized up there. Then she came down here and organized a league here but they already had something of an organization in Columbia. They had several good hard workers up there and they've always had a live league up there. But they've never been active politically. I believe that if you want a bill put through you don't just endorse it. You get out and pick out a good man to put it through and work to get him elected.
That was successful for you, wasn't it?
Yes, that's what I did. According to the League of Women Voters, you could not endorse a candidate. That's what killed my enthusiasm for the League.
Did Miss Trax stay in Columbia long?
She stayed about a week and she spoke before the South Carolina legislature. She got a very cool reception.
Did she have meetings wherein she instructed the branches how better to attract members?
They didn't have any branches then. They had
I see. You had not then organized the Aiken chapter?
No, this was at the very beginning of it.
Did you go to hear Miss Trax?
Yes, I went. I was a friend of Bertha Munsell and Bertha was one of the organizers in Columbia. Bertha Munsell. I stayed with her and Miss Trax stayed there. She organized this Columbia . . .
She instructed you some in how to go out to your outpost and organize. What did she say to do? How did she say to go about it?
She said to get a group of women together and she gave us a sample of her constitution and told us what to do. It was really not much of an organization, I can tell you. We did mostly parades and circuses.
That's attention getting; that's the thing to do.
Publicity stunts, that's what it really was and it got it. We made lots of enemies and men were just furious. Some of my best friends turned completely against me but I didn't care. There were men who just thought that a woman who was a suffragist wasn't decent. As one man said, "How can you sit at the table with a suffragist?" You were lower than a prostitute.
Did Miss Trax advocate these publicity stunts?
Yes. She said, "Attract attention. Do it in any way. Put on public theatricals. Do anything you can to attract attention." That was not Mrs. Catt Her idea was quiet, dignified. She was like you. She wouldn't have gotten to first base in organization. She was too technical for the common herd.
Which was that, Mrs. Catt?
Mrs. Catt. Mrs. Catt was a brain like you. She was scientific and she
was, I think, the most brilliant woman that ever lived. She had ideas so
far above all the rest of us
But Miss Trax was able . . . ?
But she could come down.
Where was she from?
I don't know. I think she was a western woman. A few western states came
into the union with the vote. They'd never had it. I remember in
speaking, somebody introduced Bertha Munsell. She came here from
Colorado. They said, "We have a lady to speak to us today, a lady you've
never seen before. You may not believe it, but she's a lady. She's a
lady who has voted." And Bertha got up and she said, "I feel just like
the ringtailed
Amazing, those old attitudes.
Yes, and so many were against it in the beginning because they connected us with Carrie Nation. Remember Carrie Nation and her hatchet, how she went around?
Yes. I understood that some of the other personalities in the suffrage movement had been interested in temperance too.
Mrs. Catt was originally interested in temperance. That's true, she was. Well, I never was. I'm of French descent and I was raised on wine instead of water. My grandfather thought the water on the plantation was contaminated. So every morning we were getting our allowance of wine for the day. I didn't know any different.
It makes for longevity, doesn't it?
Yes, it looks like it.
What did you do at your league meetings? For instance,
We usually had some man or several men in public office to come and speak to us. They spoke of organizing the women in the different communities around. There was no organized plan.
I'm talking about the Suffrage League rather than the League of Women Voters.
Oh, the Suffrage League. I don't know.
What did you do at the meetings?
The only real suffrage meetings that I ever went to, the one I went to was a big convention in Chicago when I slipped off.
You went up to Chicago from Aiken?
Uh huh. I never will forget that. That's an awful story. An awful thing I did. I wanted to go to this convention in Chicago. Miss Annie [Gregory] Wright in Augusta (I wish she was living) organized a suffrage organization in Augusta. She came over here and really organized the Aiken suffrage organization.
But she did it in conjunction with you, didn't she?
She came and inspired me into it. and got me to do it. She brought a Mrs. [Mary Meade] Owens with her and together we organized this one.
What was Mrs. Owen's first name, do you remember?
I think it was George.
Is she there, do you think, in Augusta?
Oh no, she's dead. Everybody's dead but me.
What about Mrs. Wright's and Mrs. Owen's children?
Miss Wright was a widow, I mean she never married. The other one never had any children. Nobody left to tell the story. That's the sad part of it all.
Yes. This is why action must be taken now to record this very important chapter in South Carolina and national history.
There's a woman in Columbia that could really tell you a lot about the
suffrage organization. Her mother was one of the very first in Columbia.
She was ["Lottie" H.] Mrs. Alfred Hammond. The woman that you should see
is Mrs. Goerge Buchanan, her daughter. I don't remember her first name.
She's my cousin too. We call her Mrs. "Buck" Buchanan. Her husband was
connected for many years with the Columbia Record and
was professor of journalism at USC. She's well-known. She's a brilliant
girl. Her name is Clara Hammond. [Buchanan]
Clara Hammond. [Buchanan]
Uh huh. Clara can tell you more about it I imagine than anybody up there.
Tell me what you did in your meetings in Aiken when Miss Wright came over from Augusta.
We got these women together and persuaded them to join an organization. The thing that got them stirred up was this Tillman case.
Tell me about the Tillman case.
You didn't know about the Tillman case?
Mrs. Lucy Pickens Tillman?
Yes.
Yes, you told me about that last time. I do know her. You used this one issue as a device?
That was the main thing that spurred me on to the whole movement.
And it also spurred others.
Other women. It appalled women to think that they didn't have any right to their own children, that a man has a right to left you bear children and then take them away from you at will. That was the most dastardly thing on this earth.
So you were able to get a group of women around it using this one incident as a focal point.
Yes, the Tillman case was the one case that caused them to rally around that standard. The feeling was so great when we organized that suffrage club here in Aiken, so many men forbade their wives to attend the meeting or to join. One man told his wife, "Now, I'll kill you if you join those suffragists." She slipped off one day and said "I'm going to join anyhow. I don't trust that husband of mine. He might take my children away any day." I said, "Well, according to the South Carolina law he can do it." One day she came in her eyes were all red, her face was all bruised up. I said, "What's the matter with you?" "Well," she said, "after the last meeting I went home and my husband beat me up. Now, what would you advise me to do?" "Well," I said, "it's plain enough if he was my husband. I would either shoot him or poison him." She says, "Thank you, Mrs. Salley," and walked out of the office. I didn't think anything more about it.
In a way, you were joshing.
No I wasn't.
You were serious.
I meant it. I'll tell you, I had the strongest feeling about it. I think
I was ready to shoot any man who would do that. I had two children that
I loved very much. If my husband had tried to take them, I would have
killed him
And what was his reaction to that?
He said, "I'll be god damned."
Oh, Mrs. Salley, you're great.
Tell me what you did on your trip to Chicago to the convention. Do you remember what year that was?
No. That's the disgraceful story. He told me I
Was this Annie?
Uh huh, Annie Wright was from Augusta. Mattie was my sister, Mrs. Hall.
Annie Wright of Augusta?
Annie Wright wanted me to go with her. Said, "If you go and you meet Mrs.
Catt and Maude Wood Park and Anna Howard Shaw and all of those wonderful
women, you'll be inspired and you'll come back home and you'll help with
this organization. We'll go places. I want you to go." I said, "Annie, I
don't have the clothes and I don't have the money." She said, "There'll
be a way, and now you put your mind to it." So I put what little mind I
had to it and I decided to borrow my sister's clothes. Then I wondered
how I'd get that money. This is disgraceful. I'm convicting myself of
murder and thievery. I got up early every morning. He Mr. Salley always
carried a lot of money in his pocketbook. I salved my conscience by
saying, whatever is his is mine and he said when he married me that a
third of his he endowed me with. So, I'm entitled to a third. So every
morning early I'd get up ahead of
Where did you stay and how long was the convention?
We stayed three or four days. I don't know where we stayed. The rest of it is very vague.
Do you not remember the events of the convention, the speeches that you heard?
It was a national suffrage convention.
What year, do you remember that?
That's why I want to get at my diary. It will tell you the exact year and date. But I don't remember. It's been at least seventy-five years. That's a long time to remember.
Yes, but it did inspire you further in the cause?
Yes, it just fired me to go ahead in that cause.
Then later Dr. Shaw came to Aiken, she stayed with me for a while. She
was a
Tell me about Dr. Shaw.
She was the first woman who was ordained in the Methodist church. Did you know that?
I believe I read that. I had forgotten what denomination.
Methodist. She was a Methodist preacher and she was a brilliant speaker. I remember I called this big meeting at what we called the Opera House——which is now city hall. Before we went out on the stage she took my hand and her hand was trembling and cold as ice. She said, "My dear, aren't you frightened?" "Why," I said, "No!" She said, "I am. I'm always terrified before I speak but afterwards it all passes." And it did.
But you were not terrified.
I said, "Well, it's a funny thing. I must be a fool. I'll never make a
speaker because I've never been terrified." She said, "How did you make
your first speech?" I said, I went to a big church meeting away out in
the country and a whole lot of country people were there. We had a long
petition. We wanted to have it signed to send to the legislature. That
was about 1912, I think. We couldn't get anybody to sign it. I thought
if
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
So all these people at the Baptist meeting, or many of them, did sign for you?
They signed. They didn't know what they were signing but they signed. I took it to the legislature. This is record and we had a friend, Sen. Niels Christensen.
Of Beaufort? [pronounced "Bewfort"]
I wish I could remember the year but my diary will show it. Niels
Christensen, senator from
What about Pollock?
He was federal, in Congress. Niels was a state senator and he became a
very great friend of mine and helped me very much in Beaufort. I started
a real estate development,
You've told me about the Chicago convention and your first speech at the Baptist meeting; what about the state Suffrage League meetings? What were they like? Did you talk about what you would be doing for the next few months, plot out definite plans of action? What kinds of things did you do?
There were some awfully good workers in Columbia and they directed the work. I have the minutes of the meetings, state meetings, by Miss W. L. Donovant. [Emma Anderson Donovant of Edgeville, S.C.] I have them all and they are accurate. Did you ever hear of Miss W. L. Donovan
You told me
She's dead.
It was very good of you and full of foresight to save thes clippings.
I kept them very accurately in the scrapbook. I don't know why I kept it.
I hoped it would be of value to my daughter. I'll tell you who I helped
a good deal with those. I don't know whether you know her or knew her
books (you remind me so much of her)——AnneKing Gregory. She's written a
wonderful book on the subject of woman's suffrage. I think Sandlapper published a book. Do you remember it?
No, I don't know that book and I'm glad that you're telling me about it.
I had it in my library and somebody borrowed it and never brought it back. This book I'll give you, this book by Mrs. Frank Leslie.
I'll bring it back.
That has absolute facts and figures as compiled by Mrs. Catt and Mrs. Leslie. It should go in the archives in Columbia.
You do not want it back? You want it given to the archives?
I'll give it to you to use up there any way you want.
Thank you. I have given Emily Bull to read this week or until she brings
it to you, For Rent One Pedestal by Marjorie Shuler. I
think she'll enjoy that.
She's an awfully nice girl.
She is and I'm glad she's doing what she's doing.
I'd like for you to tell me about going into business in Aiken. How did you get started in business in Aiken?
That's such an old story. My husband and I were always at cross purposes. One day I said something about I was tired of the law. It was dry as summer's dust and I was going to burn up every one of those damn books.
Why were you tired of it? Were you reading them? Were you into it?
I'll tell you. I thought law books should be written for one purpose only
and that was to tell me what rights women had over their children. That
was what I was looking for and that's all I cared for. I was just that
silly. He said, "Well, you just don't know what you want to do." I said,
"I know what I want to do. I want to go in business." "Empty-headed
little fool," he said. "The thing for you to do is to try. Do you know
that if you went into business, I bet you a hundred dollars you couldn't
make a hundred dollars in six months." I said, "All right, I'll take
it." He said, "That's provided it isn't a business that will disgrace
us."
The chief of police was standing there. Mr. Julian B. Salley was mayor at this time. He was just grinning ear to ear. He began to write them out. Think of getting licenses on real estate and insurance as easy as that! Now you have to sweat blood to get them.
Do you?
Oh, it's very difficult. I went to get the licenses. Came back up town
and went in the same
So, I bought some good looking clothes and we went to see every good show in New York. When the week was about out I said, "Mattie, yuu go back to Boston and I'll go back to Aiken." I'd had my first spree. I always will remember that. I bought a lot of little false curls and a little blue hat with ostrich tips on it. My mother and the two children met me at the train when I got back.
When I got off the train, they didn't know me.
What year was that Mrs. Salley?
Let's see . . .
You probably know what year your first license was issued.
1915 was my first license.
Then you were already in the suffrage movement at that time.
Yes.
Do you think that your participation in the suffrage movment and your meeting these courageous women spurred you on to the real estate business?
That set me on fire. That was it. Those women did that. And there was another woman who was in the beginning there——Patty Ruffner [Mrs. Solon Jacobs Jacobs] of Birmingham, Alabama. She was a wonderful speaker.
At Chicago?
Yes. She was a wonderful speaker.
There were several from the South that were outstanding on the national level, then, weren't there?
Yes, there were, but not many southern women took to it.
No. I do remember seeing Ms. Jacob's name in Anne Scott's book. I also remember Sue White's name.
Yes, I knew her.
Back to your real estate business. I'm wondering if you incurred any antagonism in the town by being a bold woman going into business?
Oh, my, yes. All the other agents fought me. One man said, "You've taken
bread out of my children's mouth." I said, "If you
Tell some more incidents of discrimination, of antagonism.
Every man in town turned against me and a lot of my family were against me. They just thought that I had disgraced the family. They thought it was outrageous, that only bad women, prostitutes, were suffragists.
But as far as your being in business was concerned——this is what I'm thinking about right now——were you discriminated against in a social way, in a business way?
As far as social, it didn't make any difference because I had a certain standing anyway. My family had been here always. I didn't care anything about that.
Did you have any trouble, for instance, with banks, other business concerns besides real estate?
No.
They dealt with you on an equitable basis?
Yes. Mr. Dibble, who was the president of the bank here, the largest bank . . .
Which bank is that?
The Bank of Western Carolina it was called then. It's no longer in
existence. He was president of it. He was a very progressive old fellow.
He was a nice man. He helped me a great deal and he'd lend money. There
was no
Did you [unclear]
I did better than most of them.
Do you think that the fact that you were a woman gave you a curiosity value when people were looking for real estate?
Yes, I was like the ring-tailed tiger in the circus. I was a curiosity Whoever heard of a woman real estate agent? Whoever heard of a woman who had the brass to get up in public and speak? That's outrageous to get up before the public and speak. I said, well, why not? Why am I disgraced because I'm married?
How about your reception to your being the first business woman in Aiken on a state level? Were there other enterprising women in the state?
There were. I was not the first one. Susan Frost of . . .
Of Charleston.
. . . was the first woman in Charleston. She was an unattractive
spinster from Charleston and she was
Could you?
I think so. I tried anyway.
I'm sure that you could. What about in Aiken? Were there other business women?
I'll tell you where I had it on the people in Aiken. Most of my clients
were the big rich northern "winter colony" people. I had seven very
wealthy northern clients, like Mrs. Winthrop Rutherfurd and Mrs. Peter
Roberts. They are . . . They would speak to their friends for me. I
remember Mrs. Munsell, the one who was in Columbia and was a suffragist
Isn't that marvellous. The suffrage movement inspired you to go into business and then the suffrage movement provided you with leads that set you off.
Yes, yes, yes. That was it.
Did your business connections then acquaint you with people in political
life on the state level?
Yes. Then you see, I lobbied in Columbia. I'd go up there and stay with Lottie Hammond and Clara Buchanan——they were my cousins, Lottie and Clara. We would lobby in the state house.
This was for the suffrage amendment, wasn't it?
Yes.
Then it was through suffrage rather than business that you came to know the politicians. Was it?
Yes, it was through suffrage that I knew the politicians.
And not through business.
No, not through business.
That's what I want to know. Did you hear many complaints about discrimination against women in their efforts to enter business or enter the labor market while you were such a successful business woman? Did you hear other women talk about discrimination against women?
I don't think I did hear much about it. No. There's always been discrimination against women and I think there always will be. Do you read your Bible?
Yes.
There's that Saint Paul. Look at him. He had it down on us.
I think there's a tract now put out by a woman theologian entitled Jesus was a Feminist.
Uh huh. He had to be. This ignorant little granddaughter of mine said, "Well, he had three wives." I said, "He didn't have any such thing."
What did she say?
I said, "Who were they?" "Mary and Martha," she said, "and the Virgin Mary."
How cute.
Tell me further about your business in Aiken. This, you say, commenced in 1915 and you continued right on through even though you had children.
I still go to the office.
Did you find that you had to split your allegiances, that you had a difficult time balancing?
No, I didn't. Now that seems strange I had these two children but I was
very fortunate. My mother was a remarkable woman and I depended on her
for everything. She spoiled me to death. I never got loose from her
apronstrings. She stayed with me until she died. When my first child was
born, Eulalie, old Georgia Jenkins, the old nanny who nursed me, came to
me and took that
Did you ever feel guilty?
No, I never did because I said, why in the world should I stay and do the work that Georgia can do in taking care of these children? I don't have the mentality of a child. Why should I sink to that level and waste my time on them? That was an awful way for a mother to be.
Well you gave them time, I'm sure.
I said, I can provide other things for them. I'm with them at night and I'm with them at meal times. I'm with them most of the time.
Then you must agree with the remark that's in circulation now that it's the quality of the time that you spend with your children that's important, not the quantity.
Yes. That's right.
Were you ever called from the table, from Christmas or New Year's dinner or Easter, to handle a real estate deal? Did your family ever resent it or did anything of that sort ever happen?
No, it didn't.
You could arrange your time.
My mother was always interested in building houses and she loved to draw plans of houses. She always dreamed of building a house and she'd draw these plans. I've built houses for her.
You were in partnership with your mother!
Yes. She was just as interested as I was. I had her support.
She was Mrs. Chafee?
She was Mrs. Chafee.
What was her maiden name?
Her name was Eulalie Gamble. That's her picture there.
Yes, with the red hair.
Yes.
She's stunning.
Yes. She was supposed to be a beauty.
Was she from Aiken?
No, she was from Georgia, Augusta, Georgia. She had a brilliant mind. She was a wonderful musician.
Seems that there were ample opportunities for women who developed themselves even though they had not the opportunity to go out into the world of employment.
She had always felt that women were downtrodden.
Then you heard some of this kind of thing at home?
Uh huh.
Before you sallied forth?
Yes. She believed that women were downtrodden.
What did your father think about the situation?
My father died when I was a very small child. I really never knew him.
Did you have big brothers?
No, I didn't have a brother.
An uncle?
Yes, but they were not close to me.
You didn't have a strong male figure?
No, I didn't.
I didn't either. My father died when I was about eleven.
Nobody in the family
But your mother believed that women were downtrodden.
My mother was the main thing in my life.
Tell about her influence.
She was a fine musician and a beautifully educated woman.
Where?
She was educated in Baltimore. Her father was a graduate of Heidelberg University and he believed in education. It was right after the Civil War, he lost everything except his land, but she was sent to Baltimore to this college.
Goucher College?
No, it was called Petapsco Institute. I doubt if you've ever heard of it.
No.
She was the first honor graduate there. She was a finished musician. They wanted her to go on the concert stage but my grandfather wouldn't hear of that. My grandmother was a French woman and she spoke beautiful French. Her family always spoke French at home.
It's a matter of some interest to know what lies in the background of a woman who becomes active for women's rights.
They were people of culture.
Mrs. Salley, I thank you very much for your time today. I think that you
have told me some
She'll let you have those tapes, if you want.
And I thank you so much.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Mrs. Salley, tell me some of your recollections of Faith Baldwin.
The most interesting person that I knew intimately who came to Aiken was a German baroness who called herself Madame Adele von Loesecke, though that was really not her name as I found out later. She spoke frequently of Faith Baldwin and Mrs. Auer Anchor. She was very secretive about where she had been and where she had lived and what she was to those two women. They were not related to each other but she had not been a governess to them yet they had been in her care. At that time Faith was just beginning to write and she would send her writings to Madame Von Loesecke to have her criticize them.
Do you remember how this woman spelled her
L-O-E-S-E-C-K-E. Madame Adele von Loesecke, but that was an assumed name. I never knew what her real name was.
What was her living style in Aiken?
That of royalty.
Can you describe it in some detail?
She had the most magnificent furnishings in her house which were sent here from Germany. She had silver with huge crests on them, magnificent linen. Her table arrangements for the luncheon were done by her German butler. It would be a big mound of flowers with fluttering butterflies all over it. The butler collected butterflies and he would mount them on the finest wires and as he moved about the table these butterflies would flutter in the air. I've never seen anything as exquisite. He waited on the table in white kid gloves.
And you had lunch with her every Thursday?
Every Thursday. I was the only guest who was ever invited to the house.
She was in seclusion.
She was coming to my office occasionally but the understanding was that I
was never to introduce
What was her relationship to Faith Baldwin?
I never knew but I have Faith's letters saying, "I can tell you that I lived with her for a number of years. Then she used to take me abroad. But there are two years in her life that I cannot tell you about. That is a closed book." So I never knew what happened. Then, all of a sudden, she called me one day in great distress and said, "Come to me. My butler is going to kill me." She had a Swiss nurse and a German cook. Then she had this butler. I don't know what Coastal was.
You called him Coastal? His name was Coastal?
We called him Coastal but we really never knew what he was. I went
immediately over there and he said, "Madam is indisposed. She cannot see
you." I said, "Coastal, I must see her." He said, "You cannot." My
husband was a lawyer and I went back and I said, "What must I do? Madam
Von Loesecke called me and asked me to come over and told me her life is
in danger. And I want you to go over there with me, see what we can do."
So we went over and Mister Salley got the sheriff and we took him on. We
met Coastal at the door and we said, "Something is going on here. We
don't know what it is.
What became of her estate?
All of her things were packed up, crated and shipped to Germany. She went to New York and took a small apartment there and just as she was crossing the street, soon after she got there, she was knocked down and killed by a taxi.
How eerie. It's both eerie and melodramatic.
I always believed that that man did it.
Did you have any correspondence with Faith Baldwin about this episode?
I had a letter from her not long ago when I was writing my book——I keep saying that, when Emily was writing this book. I wanted to put her in there and I wrote to Faith and I said, "What can you tell me about Madam von Loesecke? She was such a mysterious character." She said, "I lived with her when I was a little girl but there are two years in her life that I cannot tell you about. About her end, I can say nothing."
How mysterious.
I believe that she was a member of the
The environment that she maintained for herself supported this belief fully.
Yes. She was a beautiful woman. She held herself like a queen. She had that bearing and her manners were so exquisite. You knew right off that she was not an ordinary person. She lived in such secrecy.
Did knowing her affect your life in any way?
No, I was fond of her and I was distressed at her
I wonder how it is that Faith Baldwin spent years of her childhood with this woman?
I don't know.
A mystery.
Some day Faith Baldwin is going to visit me, she told me that she would, and she would tell me more but she couldn't tell me now.
Where does she live now?
She lives somewhere in Connecticut. I have her letters downsairs on file. I've had two letters from her.
How did you meet her in the first place?
Madam von Loesecke?
Faith Baldwin.
I never met her. When Madam von Loesecke came here, she was brought here by a woman equally as fascinating. She called herself Mabel Anchor and she was married to a first cousin of the king of Denmark——Auer Anchor. She was the one that bought the house and equipped it and brought all these servants here and they stayed here a while. I knew them very well. She was the one that payed all the bills and stood for everything that she wanted. On her birthday——she called her Auntie but I know she was no relation——she said, "May the fifth will be Auntie's birthday. Go to Augusta and buy the finest Cadillac they have and give it to her as a birthday present." And things like that Mabel did. Suddenly, Mabel disappeared. She spent a whole winter and then she and Auer disappeared and I never saw or heard of them again.
The entire situation is mysterious, isn't it?
Then the whole matter just closed, shut right down. When I started this
book and wanted to put something in it about Madam von Loesecke, the
most mysterious person who ever came to Aiken, I remembered so
How old was Faith in those days?
I don't know.
It was before her career . . .
She was a young woman. She was just beginning her writing career and she
would send her first stories to Madam von Loesecke to correct
Under what circumstances and why we don't know.
She didn't say. She said, "I wish I could tell you but I can't."
Perhaps this German baroness was in hiding a good portion of her life and acted as a governess.
That's what I thought. She might have been governess. You see, Mabel Spang was the illegitimate daughter of a Mr. Spang of Philadelphia one of the wealthiest men up there. There was a terrific lawsuit which she finally won and got millions by proving that she was his daughter.
Was this
That was Mabel.
I suppose you've met many many interesting people. This must have been one of the more fascinating chapters of your career.
That was the most fascinating. It was.
Let's think about Jeannette Rankin a little bit now. Can you remember when you first met her? On what occasion did you first meet Jeannette Rankin?
I didn't really meet her on that occasion but I was in Washington, 1917, when she took her seat in Congress as the first woman. I happened to be there at a meeting of the League of Women Voters and I saw her when she walked in to take her seat. I can see her now. Jeannette said, "How can you remember that?" I said, "All I remember about it was the thrill I got seeing you walk in. To prove that I was there, I can tell you the hat you wore. You wore a big black chiffon hat." She said, "I did and it cost me a fortune." She loved clothes. She always had beautiful clothes. She had lots of money. She was a rich woman.
Do you know what the source of her money was?
Yes. She was the largest tax paying woman
Did she hold classes?
I don't know whether she did or not. What she did for the women in the
beginning . . .
I wonder how she attracted them there. What kind of publicity campaign did she put on to make these women acquainted with her presence?
I don't know how she did it but she had a
Do you remember what year that was?
It was 1917.
Was it?
Yes, I remember that. Then that term expired and she didn't run again. Her brother helped her with her politics but she didn't run again. She ruined herself. There was a question whether we should go into war and everybody wanted to go into that war. They called on her to vote and she stood up and said, "I love my country but I will have to vote "no." And hers was the only "no" vote. Then she didn't run again until World War II and she happened to be in then. Again she voted "no."
She was a pacifist?
She was a pacifist.
Do you know in what other ways her pacifism manifested itself?
In the fight for peace.
Did she belong to any specific organizations that fostered peace and pacifism?
Yes. There is an organization that fosters peace and I don't know the name of it. I'll try to find one of the books that she gets out and gives. It's sort of an almanac but it's all of the women who have fought for peace, black and white, with pictures and things they have said about it. There is a peace organization and she was the head of it.
I was going to ask you whether or not you concurred with her negative vote in both instances.
Yes I do. I don't think anything is settled that way. There have been several men I've wanted to shoot but I didn't and I'm glad that I didn't. It's only in anger that you do these things. I think any question can be settled by negotiation. I don't believe in killing.
Then you concurred with Mrs. Rankin on both questions——her position on women's rights and her pacifism?
Yes.
When did you see her again after that first instance?
I never saw her again until the fall of 1970.
Did you and she correspond?
I never wrote to her. I'd keep up with her in the newspapers. I knew what
a busy woman she was, though I do have a letter from her dated November
10, 1970 after my visit to her in Watkinsville, Georgia.
Did you take your daughter?
I took Sally Carr, my granddaughter and a friend. She said, "A half hour! I never heard of such a foolishness. Why, who in the world could talk about what we've got to talk about in a half hour? You're spending the day." I never enjoyed a day so much. And I said, "Now, Jeannette, when will you come to see me?" She said, "Let's see. Today is Wednesday. I'll be there Friday." She was a minute woman. I said, "That's wonderful." She came and she stayed the whole day. She came early and she stayed 'till late in the afternoon. I never saw her again.
Can you tell me, Mrs. Salley, what you talked about on the day that you spent with her at her home in Watkinsville?
We talked about the old suffrage days.
Did you?
When we were fighting so hard. And when we were going to Congress and interviewing the different congressmen and senators. My bête noir was old Senator [Benjamin Ryan] Tillman who was a ruffian from South Carolina and who was the chief enemy of woman's suffrage. I had an interview with him. After I had my interview with him, I told her about it, reported it to her.
Can you tell me what exchange took place
Yes, I can. I went in there and I told him that he had a very fine son and he should be ashamed of himself. He'd married a lovely girl of an aristocratic family and he had two lovely girls and he had deeded away those girls without their mother's consent. That was the law in South Carolina. A man owned his children just as he owned the cattle on the ranch and he had taken advantage of that. She fought it in South Carolina courts and lost. She fought it in the Supreme Court and lost. She sold her jewelry. They were poor. She sold her jewelry and she mortgaged her plantation and she lost at every turn. The people in the country . . . I remember one time, everybody sympathized with her. There were men who sold chickens. Do you remember when they sold chickens in wagons? They'd have a wagon body with the chicken wire over it. The chickens would be in there and they'd drive from house to house. You'd go out and pick out your chickens?
That was before my childhood memories began.
Well, that's the way they did it. They'd have that wagon full of
chickens. They couldn't get those children away from the old Tillmans
who had them. He deeded them to his mother and father. So this old
It incensed them that she had to resort to this to get her children back?
That she had no right to her children and those children did not want to be with their father. He was a drunken creature.
How did Senator Tillman repond to your challenge?
He said it was the law and the law must be obeyed. What was law was law, and that was right.
Did you have correspondence on this question?
I have letters from him.
You told Congresswoman Rankin about this episode?
Yes.
Did she know Senator Tillman?
Yes, she knew him. She knew them all. I said, "There's no use to bother
with Tillman but there is a man that I believe we can win That's Senator
[William Pegner] Pollock of Cheraw. He was with us. He was a
wonderful
Do you remember his first name? It's in the record.
Yes, it's in the record. I don't remember it.
Once you told me about him and then about Harriet Powe Lynch of the Equal Suffrage League.
He was a great friend of Harriet Lynch. They were from the same town.
I'll be talking to Harriette Lynch's niece next Tuesday, this up-coming Tuesday. I'll be in Cheraw.
I hope she's kept up. Harriet is dead I think.
Yes.
She was a wonderful worker. She was president of the Suffrage League when I went into it. I saw an ad from her in the paper that every woman should join the League, right after this Tillman thing. You could join by sending a dollar and signing this slip. I signed the slip and sent the dollar. My husband got perfectly furious with me. Did I tell you the rooster story?
Yes, that's very amusing.
That was what turned the trick.
Persuasive thing. What did you and Mrs. Rankin talk about at your house?
We talked about the different politicians. and the way they stood. How some of them were such gentlemen and some such boors. Her brother, she told me, was the one who backed her and helped her more than anybody else. She said he never would go into politics but he was a real politician. He managed her campaigns.
What was his name? [Wellington Rankin]
I don't remember what she said his name was. But she said, ‘My brother was responsible. The second time I ran, he said ‘Now, Jeannette, you must finish’ the job. You must run again this year.’ He was the one who persuaded me to run again."
Can you tell a little bit about her house in Watkinsville? What was it like?
I wish you could have seen it. She took this great big house and turned it over to some poor women who made the blankets. She found on the place a gin-house. Do you know what a gin-house is?
I guess it's where the cotton was ginned.
It's where the cotton is ginned. It's a board house, a great big room and
one or two little rooms.
Dirt floor?
No, it didn't have a dirt floor. She fixed it up a little so it would be habitable. She wanted a nice living room to entertain her friends in. You know, after her first term she travelled a great deal and she had an eye for beautiful things. She loved Persian rugs. She was crazy about lovely old . . .
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE B]
. . . her appreciation of beautiful things and you said she liked what else?
Fine brass. Below the gin the ground sloped off so she had it built up. It wasn't on a level; it was about two steps below the gin house. So instead of building it up she levelled it and covered it with tar paper. On top of the tar paper she had these exquisite Persian rugs.
I wonder how they survived.
Well, the tarpaper protected them and they can survive a lot. They are beautifully made. On the wall would be these brass ornaments. Then she had a litle coal grate in the fire.
Tell me about those brass ornaments. I don't understand what kind they could be that they would decorate the wall.
They were like basins that would hang on the wall like a plaque and large vases, things of that sort that you could use to decorate with. Then she had a few rugs on the wall.
The small Persian rugs.
Yes.
I think those things that hang on the wall are called lavabos, or something like that.
Yes. Then she'd have some bookcases with a wonderful collection of books. She loved to read and her eyes were bad. These two boys she had would read to her.
Yes. Tell about the two young men.
She took these two young men to educate, to send through the university.
They were very brilliant young boys. One was John Kirkley and the other
was Vernon Edenfield. I've got some pictures of them. I think Lucy2must have taken them down with her.
They were simply devoted to Jeannette. She had no servants. They did
everything for her. When lunch time came, we got up to leave for Aiken,
she said, "You're staying to lunch."
To cook lunch for about seven people!
They didn't really have to use the hot plate then?
No, they didn't. I think they had hot tea. They had something that looked like a meatloaf that was perfectly delicious.
But it was not meat at all?
God knows what was in it.
But it tasted fine?
It was delicious. They had the nicest bread I've ever tasted. They made the bread and they baked it in some way on this round thing.
How strange.
The strangest thing I ever heard of.
Everything was good. But there was no cooking and Salley and those two boys did it in a half hour.
Salley helped in the preparation.
Yes.
She learned a few things thereby.
Yes. She said it was the most fascinating thing. She'd never seen
anything like the things they put in it and she'd never eaten anything
like it. She said it was mostly grass seed.
The human body can tolerate many things we didn't believe it could. Was this Jeannette Rankin's own predilection toward nature-food or was this the young men's notion?
I think it was hers. One of the girls said to Vernon, "Would you show me
where the bathroom is?" He said, "Certainly." He took her upstairs to
Jeannette's
Yes. She was roughing it. How old was she then?
She was ninety-one.
Oh my goodness, how extraordinary. With this apparent lack of comfort surrounding her, she cared more for aesthetic enjoyment than she did for physical comfort. Didn't she?
Yes. She had little grates. It was a cool day in April. She had little grates with charcoal in every room. They were perfectly comfortable and warm, but no furnace heat.
Quite an experience.
Yes. I wouldn't take anything for that visit.
So this was on a Wednesday and do you remember the date?
No, but I have it in my diary, November 1971, I think.
Then she returned the visit on Friday?
The next week; she came the next week.
Did you hear from her again after that? Did you communicate?
Oh yes, yes. I had letters from her. The next year she went to Carmel
California and that's where she died.
To Carmel?
Yes . . . and was with her when she died. I said, "Was she ill?" "No, she was not ill. She just slept away." She made her will and she requested that when she died that she be cremated and that her ashes would be sprinkled from a boat on the waters in San Francisco Bay.
What a beautiful area. But she was a native Montanan, was she not?
Yes.
Yet she had this tie with the deep South.
Yes.
And then became enamoured of the far West too.
Yes.
She was a person who was American rather than having a regional allegiance.
Yes. She was a woman of the world, Jeannette was. She went and lived a year in Persia.
Did she tell you anything about this?
No, she didn't. She told me that's where her brasses came from. Then she
lived somewhere else. She'd spend a year in several different countries.
That's
The year that you exchanged visits was about 1972?
No, 1971.
Spring, do you remember, summer?
It was about this time of year. I have the exact date.
Can you think of other incidents when you and Miss Rankin saw each other or exchanged letters? Any other interesting anecdotes?
No, I can't think of anything else of special interest. I didn't see her. In between there was a long gap. If I hadn't picked up that paper . . .
Why that's twenty-six years!
More than that, from '17 to '71 How many years is that?
That's about fifty-four years.
And I picked up the paper and I said, "Why, there's Jeannette. I must get
in touch with her right away." So I wrote her and she picked up the
telephone and said, "Come tomorrow." She hadn't forgotten and I think
that was wonderful because she met thousands of people. I said,
"Jeannette, after all those years out
What a nice thing to say.
Yes. Well, I had it. I was as mean as the devil.
You still do have it. I wouldn't say mean.
Well, I had thrown my whole heart and soul into that cause and she knew what we were doing. She would watch these things. She was such a spunky little thing herself.
Was she a little person?
Yes, much smaller than I am. Her besetting sin——it wasn't a sin either because she had plenty of money——was clothes. She loved clothes.
How did she dress when you visited her in Watkinsville?
She had on a beautiful black taffetta dress with a lace scarf.
Long or short?
Long. She dressed like an old-fashioned lady.
How was she dressed when she came to visit you here?
She had on one of the most beautiful dresses
Was it long also?
Long, yes.
A dramatic person, wasn't she.
Yes, she was.
What about her mannerisms and her speaking style? Were they dramatic too?
No.
Quiet?
Very quiet. No airs about her.
But she was fired by a fundamentally democratic instinct.
Yes, purely democratic. Yet, that's what she liked——beauty in clothes and in people. She said she didn't like ugly people.
Somehow the way you've described her, I can't imagine her . . .
Her surroundings were beautiful but they were contradictory. The little
old cotton-gin house with a dirt floor with all these beautiful old
Persian rugs and this lovely brass and exquisite china and silver
Her being born with a silver spoon in her mouth and then her espousing democratic causes——this too is contradictory.
Yes.
She was a study in contrasts, I guess.
Well, if you own a million acres of land you could afford to be a little extravagant. The thing I remember most vividly was a hat. She said, "What did you remember most?" I said, "That beautiful hat." "It nearly put me in bankruptcy buying that hat."
It must have been a broad-brimmed affair.
It was a broad brim, black chiffon hat. It was very becoming to her and she was very good looking as a young woman. She was not tall but she held herself well.
Regally.
Yes. And she wasn't afraid of the devil. She would march up there, the only woman there, and it didn't phase her one bit.
What did she say, do you remember, on that occasion?
I couldn't hear a word of it. We were back in the gallery. They just
pushed us back. It was
She followed the suffrage movement's progress in all the different states and was aware of what was happening in South Carolina?
Yes. She was the idol of all of them because she was the first woman who cut the path.
But she didn't cast her lot, did she, with either of the women's groups——the National American Women's Suffrage Association or Alice Paul's Woman's Party? She didn't cast her lot in with either of the two, did she?
No.
She simply supported the cause of suffrage.
Yes.
Did she, do you think, support more strongly the idea of gaining the vote state by state in the different state constitutions or did she favor an amendment to the United States Constitution?
She stood for the Susan B. Anthony Amendment.
The amendment to the Constitution . . .
Yes.
. . . rather than the state by state approach.
Yes. She said that was too slow and it was too slow.
Mrs. Salley, I thought that the Woman's Party made the Anthony AMendment its specific goal whereas the National American Woman's Suffrage Association, led by Mrs. Catt, really favored gaining the vote for women through changing state constitutions, the slower method. Am I mistaken about this?
I think you are.
That was what I had thought about the two organizations——that they had contrasting strategies.
You may be right. Our aim was to change the state of South Carolina. That was the object of the South Carolina Suffrage Convention——to change that. Yes, you were right there.
Because the Woman's Party never did bother with states and state legislatures and state senates but cast all their emphasis on Washington, D. C. and a change in the United States Constitution. This is why they staged these dramatic events at the Capitol and at the White House.
They were militant.
I know. Their tactics were very different from your organization's
tactics but their goal was
They followed the English pattern and they should have seen that it didn't work over there.
Do you know that today, in reflection, women who were in that group attribute the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment and Wilson's support of it to their militant activity? Rightly or wrongly, they do this. They do.
Well, if they like that, good. Of course, Wilson helped a great deal but Wilson was a southerner. He was entirely in sympathy with our group. I don't know how he felt about the militants.
He probably preferred ladylike women.
I'm sure he did.
Surely he would realize that an amendment to the U. S. Constitution would be the most effective way to get the matter settled once and for all.
But that was the hardest way.
But it's the way it actually came to pass for all the states. Whether South Carolina women voted legally or not for fifty years, they were still voting because of that national amendment.
Yes. The way we took it was the hard way, no doubt of it. There wasn't any easy way to do it.
No, there wasn't. Not with the Equal Rights Amendment either. Do you
remember any names of any women active in the South Carolina Equal
Suffrage League from North Augusta? I saw in your old newspapers that
there was a North Augusta chapter. True, I saw a comment, "there are no
reports coming from North Augusta about new members,"
No, I don't.
Do you remember names of anyone from Beech Island, for instance? In the old newspapers down there in your file, it suggests that there were small chapters and sub-groupings in Beech Island and North Augusta.
Oh, there were. They had a small group in Beech Island.
Who were some people in it?
I'll tell you. There were the Davies girls.
How do you spell that?
D-A-V-I-E-S, Davies, Helen and Harriette Davies.
Are they there now do you think?
No, they're both dead.
Do they have any children, any daughters that might remember their activity?
I don't think they have any children. I'll have to look back in those files and see. They were never very active. I remember that I was invited to speak at a meeting there at the Downer School. I never will forget that. They didn't want me to come. The people on Beech Island were dead set against any suffrage. They just didn't want it. I would have to go from here, on a trolley, to Langley. Did I ever tell you this story?
No
Then they were to meet me with a buggy and take me in the buggy to the
Downer Schoolhouse where I was to speak. Well, I got to Langley on
schedule and there was nobody there to meet me. I got to
The hearse isn't very clean. We haven't had to use it in a long time." So they ran a few rats out and brushed it up and I drove in the hearse. I drove up to the schoolhouse. There was a big crowd waiting.
And nobody had been there to meet you.
No. They'd done it on purpose, you see.
Oh, goodness. But you actually came up in a hearse.
I came up in a hearse.
That is a choice story, Mrs. Salley.
There was a Catholic priest there and he said, "I admire you for that." I got driven back to the station when it was time to go home by the Catholic priest. I never will forget that.
How big was the crowd that heard you?
Oh, there were about a hundred or so.
Did they greet what you said warmly?
Yes, they treated me like a queen after I got there because I had come there in a hearse.
How long did you speak?
About twenty minutes.
What was Downer Institute?
It was a local country school. I think it's still there.
Did you go to Jackson and speak too?
No, I didn't go to Jackson.
Did you go to North Augusta?
No, I didn't go to North Augusta. I never was invited there. Augusta took over North Augusta.
And that was Annie Wright.
Yes. Annie Wright was a distant cousin of mine. She was a whirlwind. She came over here and organized this league for us and she helped us a lot.
Then you managed to take the lead yourself.
Then I took it over from Annie. I went with Annie to the national Chicago convention.
You told me about that episode. That was interesting. Did you go to Salley?
We
Did you?
Yes.
What about Williston?
We didn't have anything at Williston.
Barnwell?
We had one at Barnwell.
Who were some people active there?
There was a girl there, Josie Davis.
Is she there now?
She is stillalive but she's in a nursing home in Augusta. We didn't range far from home.
What about Edgefield? Was there a movement in Edgefield at all?
Our correspondent was Mrs. [Emma Anderson] Donovant, who was a wonderful woman. She was from Edgefield.
She lived in Columbia, didn't she?
No, no. She lived in Edgefield.
But she published in the Columbia State, did she
not?
Yes. She wrote all the articles for us. She was our secretary but she lived in Edgefield. We couldn't get Edgefield women to join.
About how many members did you have in North
I don't think we had over twelve.
How many in Beech Island?
Probably ten or twelve.
And Salley?
But that day there was a crowd. They had never heard of woman's suffrage.
Or seen a woman speaking.
No, no. A woman speaking was a curiosity.
I guess you stood a lot of them on their heels, didn't you?
I started one [a chapter] in Hampton, South Carolina, in the lower part of the state. It was during the flu epidemic and no meetings could be held in buildings on account of that epidemic. So, we got some people to gather a lot of cotton bales and build them up, one on top of the other, and make a stage. I remember that stage scaring me half to death.
Built on cotton bales!
Yes, a pile of cotton bales.
There must have been boards on top?
No, there weren't any boards. They just had us stand on the cotton bales and make a speech.
And you did.
Yes.
Who spoke with you?
I think the mayor of the town.
Was he cordial?
Yes, he was very nice.
How big was Hampton?
Hampton's about the size of North Augusta.
How is it that you went that far away from your own balliwick?
They asked me to come. Anybody that had any time and wanted to put on a cheap show, would ask us. We were sort of curiosities.
Who spoke on the stand with you at Beech Island that day when you drove up in the hearse?
Nobody.
Just you.
Just me. I was introduced by somebody down there in Beech Island. They couldn't mob me because I was a friend of Henry Hammond, Judge Hammond. He said, "You go on down there and tell them. Just go on down there and tell them. You'll be all right." Miss Julia Hammond was there, I remember. She was later Mrs. Richards. Also, Helen Davies and Harriette Davies. They were all women that I knew. I just did it to show off, they said.
Who said this, Mrs. Salley?
Some of the people down there. "She just did it to show off when she drove up in the horse."
Goodness, it seems to me it was the only practical recourse.
It was the only way I could get there. My husband used to say if I was invited to hell to make a speech, I'd go.
END OF INTERVIEW
Eulalie, (1973).