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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview H-0211, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Dora Scott Miller grew up in Apex, North Carolina, and finished high school before marrying and taking a job at the Liggett and Myers Tobacco Company in Durham, where she spent nearly four decades. During her tenure there, Miller watched the company evolve into a racially integrated, unionized company. However, much of this interview focuses on her experiences there before World War II, when a non-union workforce primarily consisting of black women worked long hours for little pay under white foremen. Miller and her coworkers kept their mouths shut to keep their jobs, but maintained enough strength to vote in a union when it arrived and to form a supportive community outside of the workplace. This interview should prove a rich source of information for researchers interested in southern industrial work from the perspective of an African American woman.
Dora Scott Miller reflects on the changes in tobacco factory work from the perspective of an African American woman.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Miss Miller, what is your complete name?
Dora Scott Miller.
Where and when were you born?
I was born in Wake County, Apex, North Carolina, January 27, 1906.
Can you recall the name of your mother and father?
She was Myrtle Long before she got married, and my daddy was Vernon Scott.
Did they live in Apex also?
Yes, they was born there and reared there.
What type of work did your parents do?
Farm.
Did you own…
We owned our own farm.
Do you know if your mother's parents was involved in farming? Do you know anything about your…
No, my mother's parents wasn't involved in farming. Her daddy was a building contractor. Her mother didn't work, but my daddy's father was a big farmer. He owned two big plantations.
Did they all come from the same area?
Yeah, all of them came from Wake County—all of them born in Wake County.
How long did your grandfather on your mother's side live? Can you recall how long he lived?
He was about seventy-three, something like that when he died, and she was older because she was older than he was. She lived a few years after he died. She must have been about seventy-eight or-nine when she died.
That's interesting because many of us don't know far back in regard to grand-parents and great-grand-parents. That's very interesting. Your mother's name was Myrtle. Do you know when she was born?
I don't have a record of that now.
Do you know when she died?
She died 1927. She was thirty-eight when she died.
How old were you then? Do you recall?
When my mother died? I was twenty years old. She died in October, and I would have been twenty-one in January.
So you have some impression about your mother?
Yeah.
What type of person was she?
My mother was a very lovable person, very lovable person.
In regard to the family, since you lived on a farm, who was really the backbone of the family when you were growing up?
My father.
Your father was. How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Didn't have no brothers, just five girls.
A house full of girls. Were you the youngest or the oldest?
I'm the oldest.
What was your responsibility being the oldest girl? You said you were about twenty when your mother died, therefore…
I was married when my mother died.
What age did you marry?
Nineteen.
Were you living with your…
No, I was living here. I came here when I got married.
Let's go back to the farm that you were living on.
As we got old enough, we went out to help on the farm. Our chores was to help like choppin' cotton and tobacco—we had cotton and tobacco. We grew both on our farm. Then we helped pick cotton and then we worked in the tobacco in the housin' time to curin' and all that.
Did your father acquire the farm from his father?
No, he worked it out himself. My daddy went to New York and worked for $1.00 a day, and they raised him to a $1.25 a day—not a hour, but a day! And saved money—I think he said he gettin' about $1.50 then in the later years—he stayed up there three or four years. The people didn't come back like they do now. And stayed up there all that time, and when he came back, he bought a farm and married my mother.
When was this? When did your father buy the farm?
I was born in 1906; he married my mother in 1904. He bought this farm about, must have been 1902 or 1903.
Who did he buy it from? Do you know?
Yes, the man was named Mr. Johnson.
Was he a white…
Light man, he was a Mr. Johnson.
How many acres was this that your father owned?
Seventy-four and five-tenths.
That's very good. Is it still in control of the family?
No, we sold it.
You were brought up on a farm, your father was the backbone of the
family… In reference to your family, since there were
Yes, my family was very religious.
What did you do on Sundays?
Went to church and Sunday School—that's about all there was to do at that time.
What type of religious affiliation were you brought up under?
My daddy, all of us children was Baptist; my mother was Christian. She belonged to the Christian church. They allowed us to join where we preferred.
When you were growing up in Apex, do you recall any kind of racial strife in the time period in which you were growing up?
No, we didn't have any strife or that. My people was known as "free Negroes" on both sides. We would have some problems with the opposite Negroes. Goin' to school at times, the "free Negroes" would have problems with the Negroes that wasn't called "free Negroes." All our parents was supposed to have been never under slavery. They was called "free Negroes."
Your father's name was Scott, and they were free Blacks.
My mother, her daddy had a white mother and a Black father, which they was married. They didn't marry a-force. His mother raised him up till he got to a big boy, and then his father took him and raised him.
All this was taking place in Apex?
Un-huh. He was born in Chatham County, but he was reared in Wake County. He was born in Chatham County, my mama's father was, but he was reared in Wake County.
Your parents related this to you as you grew up?
Yes.
Were Blacks living close or farther apart?
Well, we lived close. It was a very close settlement. We were surrounded by white people, and they were very nice neighbors. We had a neighbor which was Seagroves. We worked with them. We helped them house tobacco and they'd help us. He had his farm; we lived right next farm to him. We was housed in by white people—the Wilsons on one side, the Rhodes on another, and the Seagroves on another, and we was sittin' in between.
Did you ever play with white children?
Played with the white children. Yeah, we played with them, and one of the boys is real sick now. He's from November to January older than I am, and he lives out in Apex now; he runs the fillin' station there. He's a Seagroves—Walter Glenn Seagroves. His oldest sister, she lost her husband a few weeks back. Her name was Esther. One of the sisters, they live in Apex still, but then the baby boy, he lives on the farm right on. He built him a new house 'fore his mother and daddy died. His name John —he just retired from the post office in Apex back here last year. The younger girl, she lives in Southern Pines. She married and went to Southern Pines.
So you still keep in contact with your…
Yeah, we stay in contact. When the mother died, we went—my sister and I—we went down there that night when they had the wake. They came back from the funeral home, we went to the house to see them all.
What time did you get up on the farm?
Well, at times we got up, like they housin' tobacco or somethin' like that, we had to get up very early in the mornin', maybe around 4:30 or 5:00 when we'd be housin' tobacco.
Was that a very rough job? Was it hard for a woman?
It was hard then, much harder than it is now. Yeah, it was hard.
And there were all girls?
Yeah. My daddy kept a hired hand. He had two horses, kept a hired boy by the month. Paid him thirty dollars a month—that sounds like a whole lot of money—thirty dollars a month and board. He's a preacher now, and he lives in Raleigh.
What about education, since you had to work in tobacco…
We were at school. We had to go to school—that was a must.
Was it a type of school that stayed open throughout the year?
No, it didn't stand open the whole year. When I first went to school, we didn't have about five months school, and went from that to six months; it eventually got to seven. I didn't never go for seven months in my whole life.
How far did you go?
I finished high school.
Throughout your educational experience, what would you say was a factor that tended to motivate you to get an education? Was it a teacher, or was it your parents?
It was really my parents and one teacher I had. She was a girl that
worked her way through school, and I can't never forget her. She would
always encourage me to tell me, "Be sure to get a education," cause she
had worked her way through school. Her name was Maude Lambert. She died
with cancer about two years ago in Raleigh hospital. She was gettin' up
some years, because she was older than I was. She died in Raleigh
hospital with cancer about two years ago, and she had married by then.
She was named Maude Lambert. She would tell me about what a
What was the name of the school? Do you recall the school that you attended?
Yes, Apex Elementary School. The Methodists had a high school at that time which was a boardin' school—
You mentioned earlier that you came to Durham when you were about twenty.
No, I got married at nineteen and came to Durham.
What year was that? Do you recall?
I got married October 24, 1925.
You immediately came to Durham with your husband.
Um-huh.
What is your husband's name?
Garland Jones was my first husband.
How did you meet him?
I met him through friends with my sister. My sister introduced me to him.
What about his background? Was his parents involved in farming?
Tenant farmers. They came out of Granville County.
So your first husband was also a farmer?
Yes, he was reared on a farm.
What did he do for a livelihood?
After he came here?
Right.
Worked for American Tobacco Company.
Did you have any children from your first marriage?
No.
Did your husband die?
No, we're divorced.
When did you marry your…
Married him June 5, 1960.
Your first husband, Mr. Jones, both of you were working in the factory. When did you start working in the factory?
I went to work in the factory, January 19, 1925.
What type of job…
I worked some on the buttin' machine.
A buttin' machine?
A buttin' machine'd cut the butts off of the tobacco.
How much were you paid?
Twenty cent a hour.
You worked from what…
Worked from 7:00 to—we made nine hours a day—went to work at 7:00, nine hours a day, twenty cent a hour.
Did you have any breaks like lunch?
Yes, we had lunch period.
How long was that?
Thirty minutes.
Did you have any other breaks in the time?
Yes, we had to go to the rest room.
You could just go on your own if you wanted.
No, we didn't go on our own. We had somebody to relieve us to go.
Did you have to ask a foreman?
No, they'd come around and ask you permission when you got ready to go.
Who's they?
They have a extra lady to do that.
In the area that you worked the butting machine, were they all women working?
On the buttin' machine it was, but men put the work up for us—they put the tobacco up for us. We had to feed it on this machine, and a woman cut the butts off of it. We put it on a conveyor.
So you worked for nine hours.
Twenty cent a hour.
Do you recall what other jobs women were doing in the factory?
Yes, they had machines. They had stemmin' machines—I worked on the fourth floor. They had stemmin' machines on the third floor, and they had another department on the second floor. Women worked on all them floors. They had hand stemmers, they had all that.
Did black and white women work together?
No, no white. They had white men as foremans.
So what were the white women doing?
White women worked in the cigarette department. You didn't have but a very few white women at that time; they worked across the street in the cigarette department.
You said only a very few. Is that because they didn't need…
No, they just didn't have but a few white ones workin' at that time. Now, most of it is white.
In reference to the job you had to do, did you stand up?
You had to stand up all them hours.
Stand up at the machine?
All them hours, except when you went to have that little break to go to the rest room and thirty minutes for lunch, you had to stand up.
Did you ever get tired?
Yep, we got tired. But it was just as if you hadn't gotten tired. You had to work right on.
Do you recall any women that might have worked around you, or maybe you, that probably had fatigue, fainted…
They didn't faint. Sometimes, we worked this burly tobacco which comes
out of Kentucky which is very strong. Like times, you can go by the
factory now and smell some real strong tobacco. At times, some of them'd
get sick on that; they'd get sick on that and have to go to the
dispensary. But other than that, they didn't; they didn't
That is a good point. Did you have to wear a certain uniform?
No, not when I first went there; you wore just what you had. Some few years later, they came in with uniforms and the company gave you three uniforms.
The women who worked in the cigarette side, I think you said were white women. Did they make more than you did?
Yes! Dollars and dollars more than we made.
Why was this?
At that time, we didn't have a union. I worked with the union when it
first started. When they started the first union, that was in '34. They
started the first union—I helped write up.
Did you ever get a raise?
I didn't get no raise from '25 till '33 when Roosevelt came in.
Did you ever ask for one.
Well, at that time, you didn't ask. You didn't have nobody to go to face the man for you. You didn't ask like that like you would now for a raise. But when the union came about, that's when they begin the raise. The department I was in, they raised us from twenty cent to twenty-five, and the girls that fed the stemmin' machines, they got thirty cents which was a ten cent raise. We got a five cent raise in the department I was in.
You're saying that women that were on the stemmery machine was making twenty cents an hour?
They was making twenty cents to start with—twenty cents an hour. The hand stemmers weren't making but about six or eight cent a pound for stemmin'.
When you started working in 1925, machines were already here?
Yeah, they were already there. They moved in that plant in '24. When I
went to work, they was all—Liggett and Meyers and the American Tobacco
Company years ago used to be in the same company—they split up. That was
before I went to work there. In '24, they moved into that building, and
I went to work there in '25, and that's when they put them stemmin'
machines and things in. But they was in
Can you tell me about the relationship between you and the foreman? Did black women have a nice or cordial relationship between…
Well, we had one of the toughest was the boss. He was a one-eyed fella named George Hill. He was tight! He was out of South Carolina, and he was tight. I mean tight! He'd get on top of them machines—they had a machine that altered the tobacco—he'd get on top of that machine and watch you see if you was workin' all right and holler down and curse.
He would curse in your presence?
Curse and we workin'. That's what we had to undergo. Holler down and say, "D … go to work!" "GD … go to work there; you all ain't doin' nothin'"
And you said nothing?
Nothing. No, you didn't say anything. You said anything, you went out.
Do you recall any problems black women might have had in regard to any women who might have gotten fired?
Oh yes, quite a few of them got fired. Then he had some pets. A girl right over here on Roxborough Street was one of his pets. She livin' there now.
What you mean by "picks?"
His "pets"—had some pets.
What did they receive?
Give them a break, didn't work them hard like he did the rest of them.
Why did some of the women get fired?
He just didn't like them and said they weren't doin'
For no reason, he would just say, "You got to go."
Yeah, he just tell them they had to go and that was it. Sometimes he send you home for two or three days, and then sometimes he'd fire you. Weren't nobody to take up for you, but when the union came about, you had shop stewards. They'd take your case to the foreman and discuss it. That's what I did; I was a shop steward.
While working in the factory in the 20's and 30's, were you ever given any type of benefits?
Nothing. Nothing but just a little insurance and that was—when you pay, that's when you passed. We didn't have no hospital insurance. Hospital insurance didn't come about till some years later. No benefits, nothing but just a little insurance when you was deceased. I think got around three or four hundred dollars to start with. It's now up in the thousands.
Do you recall pregnant women working in the factory?
Yes, pregnant women worked in the factory. This child what singing, right now her mother got crooked feet—Shirley—her mother used to work up there pregnant. She carried Shirley workin' right up there in that factory.
Shirley Ceasar's mother worked up there.
Mother—with them crooked feet. Yeah, they worked up there, but they wouldn't let them work long. Soon as they found out you was pregnant, you had to quit.
So that means a pregnant woman, unless she kept it disguised…
Kept it disguised, she couldn't work; they put you out.
Now would she be able to be re-hired back?
Yes, they'd take them back if they felt like it. If they didn't, they didn't take them back. If they liked them, they'd take them back; if they didn't like them, they didn't take them back.
Did you ever receive any type of vacation time?
No, no vacation was even mentioned. The foremans all had vacation; nobody else got no vacation. It was years—way over in the 30's—before they begin havin' vacation. When they first started, they closed down for a week. Then after that, they would let you have a vacation. You'd put in for your vacation and get so many days later. Everybody wouldn't go at the same time, 'cause they didn't close the plant down.
In the 20's and 30's, you began working on the butt machine. Did you ever work on anything else?
Yes I did. I worked on stemmin' machines too later.
Which is the hardest type of work?
The stemmin' machine's the hard part.
What do you do on the stemming machine?
You had to feed tobacco—untie it and feed it—and it goes up and pulls them stems out of it, the machine pulls the stems out of it. You had to do it so fast. You push it up under there.
Was the tobacco heavy? I'm sure it was dusty and nasty to work with or was it cleaned before you start working with it?
No, it used to be dusty. In the early years, it was dustier, but in the later years, science come along and there'd be different ideas. They got it so it weren't so dusty, but it was dusty early years.
What would be the hardest thing about being a woman tobacco worker in the 20's and 30's? The physical work of it or was it the emotional strain of working? What was the condition like being a black woman?
The emotional strain was on them hand stemmers, 'cause they was just like this, they shut their body—emotional. That was the hand stemmers; they went just like this here all day long. They had to do so much 'cause they got paid by the pound. Emotional strain was on the hand stemmers; they weren't gettin' about eight cent a pound. They had to get so many pounds, then the man would fire you.
Do you recall how many pounds you ever…
I never hand stemmed.
You worked with the machines?
Un-huh.
Why were some women given certain jobs and some women were given other jobs?
Well, at the time, they didn't have a employment office as they have now.
They just started that after World War II. The first man they put in
there was Mr. Perry. He was a foreman—I was workin' under him at the
time when he went into service in World War II—he came back, they opened
up the employment office and a personnel department. They didn't have
all that. That was after World War II. At the time when I was hired,
somebody would take you up there and recommend you to the foreman, and
that's how I got on that particular floor. My cousin—her name Beatrice
Harrington. She lives in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania now. She's younger
than I am, but she was workin' in the factory—she'd take me to the
factory and recommend me to the foreman. She was sweepin', and I was
makin' more money
Was it because of the physical built of a woman that you got a certain job?
No, that's where they'd place you at. If you went to a certain floor, you went and stood up side the wall, man come there and pick you out.
What was basically the age of women that worked in the factory?
Some earlier years, some children used to come in—that was before I went there, earlier—some of them used to go in and help their mothers stem, but that didn't happen after I was there, 'cause you had to be past sixteen.
So there was a rule about age?
A rule, yeah. Early years, the children used to go in after school and help their mothers stem, but at the time when I went there, you had to be past sixteen.
Women like to talk together. Did women ever get together and talk about certain things that might have have happened on the job?
Yes, we'd do that.
Can you recall some of the conversations?
Yes, we'd talk about the job. We know we weren't treated right, but there was nothing we could do about it—weren't a thing in the world we could do about it, 'cause there weren't no go-between.
In reference to Durham in the 20's and 30's, was working as a tobacco worker maybe one of the best jobs?
Yes, it was a good paying job.
Where did you live in Durham?
I lived over in what's known as East Durham.
Within that community that you lived, were any of the women
Yes, quite a few was employed in tobacco. Course people working out, maids didn't make nothing much. Some of them didn't even get—not but one made six dollars a week out there. A maid, she was making some money.
How long did you work for Liggett and Meyers?
I went to work Liggett and Meyers in '25. I came out the same day Kennedy got shot; that was '63 wasn't it—October '63.
If somebody asked you, "Describe conditions in the tobacco factory in the 20's and 30's," what would you say?
It was bad, but it was the best you could do, and the most money you could make.
If you had children, and they were in the age range of sixteen or older, would you let them work in tobacco?
Now, so much is different. Now, we get so many college graduates around in the factory now with good jobs. We have so many black foremans and black people just got them higher up jobs. Black girl sitting in the office, black girls sitting everywhere around there now.
In the 20's and 30's, did you have facilities for eating?
Yes, we had facilities for eating.
You had a cafeteria?
We had a cafeteria.
What about for an injury on the job?
Yes, we had a dispensary.
Was it staffed?
Yeah, we had a lady in there.
Was she black or white?
Black.
Did they have separate facilities?
Yes, they had separate. Over there on the other side, the white ones had a RN, and we had a LPN.
They had a separate cafeteria?
Um-hm, they had a separate one. Now they all eat together.
Do you ever recall not working on a particular day or staying out of work, and was the reason ever related to working at the factory? Did you ever stay out of work?
Yes, I've stayed out some, but not no injury or nothing from work.
You were just tired?
Un-huh. Sometimes I'd stay out tired.
Did you ever work on weekends?
Yes, we worked on Saturdays till noon.
Did you get overtime?
No overtime. No overtime didn't come till Roosevelt's day. No overtime. Still made that twenty cent a hour.
Working in the factory among women, did you develop a type of close relationship among women working with you?
Yes, as it is in any place. It was little groups like too, cause everybody had their own friends. You're not friendly to everybody, 'cause there was a time when some people was bad in the factories, and you'd almost be afraid of them.
What do you mean?
They used to fight.
Fight in the factory?
Un-huh.
Women or men?
They fight each other. Women and men would fight.
For what reason?
Just get in arguments and fight.
Right in front of everybody and just fight?
Un-huh, then they got fired. You had to kind of study your people to keep away from those people. Some of them you'd be afraid to say anything to or around them because they'd snap you up or something.
I know you mentioned that the supervisors and the foremen were white. Do you know of any other incidents other than supervisors making very nasty remarks to women—other incidents that you felt was not…
Yes, it happened several times. Those things happen.
How did you feel?
Well, you couldn't feel good over it. You couldn't feel good whatsoever.
Did you ever talk about your experiences with your husband when you came home? Did he ever give you a reaction?
Sometimes I would and sometimes I wouldn't, because we never discussed our jobs too much to each other. I'll tell you, when you discuss your job, sometimes it make you tired when you get home. When I leave my job, I like to leave the job. I've never been a person to bring my job home.
You say you went to work at what time?
Seven o'clock in the morning.
And you'd get off about what?
We made nine hours.
Did working in the factory affect your social life?
No, it didn't affect mine. You had to press hard. You had to press very
hard. Cause a lot of people would classify people that worked in the
factory, and you had to press hard to keep your character up by working
in the factory at that particular time. But
What you mean somebody would classify you?
They said that nobody worked in the factory but bad people.
Was this due to certain…
Certain people was bad, and that would leave a mark on the good ones.
Wasn't a majority of black people working in the factory?
Everything was black practically.
Let me go back to working along with black women in the factory. When there were problems of death in the family or sickness, did black women that you worked along with, did they show any type of support?
Oh, yes, they did. We always did that. We'd always visit each other, and we had a very close communication with each other like that. Then we'd always solicit money for floral designs for funerals and all that. They always did that and still do.
What church did you attend in Durham?
Union Baptist.
Within that church that you attended, were there a lot of black women that worked in the factory also?
Yes, there was quite a few. Numbers and numbers of them.
Were these women active in the church also?
Yes, very active. I was 'cause I was a usher at that time.
So you retired from the factory in '63.
No, I didn't retire from there. I retired—they terminated the plant what I was in. They terminated that plant, and I went to work in a dry cleaning plant doing seamstress work.
When they terminate you, you did get benefits?
Yes, just a small amount I get every month.
You mentioned you were a union leader in the factory. You mentioned that the union began in 1934. Why was the union started?
Well, we had different speakers come from different places come to speak to us. They'd invite people to come in—groups of people—so that they'd discuss the union to them. We met in the old Wonderland Theatre building, down where they had they had the first meetings at. Later, a few years, they had a union hall. They bought this nice place down on Roxboro Street. That was a year. They'd scramble around everywhere upstairs in them holes and everywhere till they got and built this nice place. Of course, the urban renewal got that. Then, the last few years, the two unions a-merged. One-ninety-four went in with 208, black and white together, but formerly, 194 was black and 208 was white.
How active were black women in the union to begin with?
Just a few black women. Two black women that was there was the shop stewards—myself and Mrs. Marie Macmillan.
How many floors did black women work on at the factory? You only had two shops in it.
We had three floors, but women worked on them, and on one floor weren't nothing worked on it but men.
So the leadership of the union in '34 was dominated by the males?
Un-huh. The women didn't come in till later. They worked in the union, but wasn't no women shop stewards till later. Marie Macmillan, she was one of the first ones, then I was the second one.
What is the role of the shop steward again?
When you have problems. You have a problem on your job, you feel like you
haven't been treated right or something. Sometimes the foreman'll say,
"You're not doing a good job." He'll go to the shop steward. Then you
have to go talk to this person and find out
What was the reaction of management toward the whole idea of the union?
They didn't care for it, but they eventually accepted it. At first, they didn't want to accept it. In Roosevelt's time, he advocated unions, and we finally got it through. We got our union and got it organized and everything, and they had to accept it.
Were there any strikes that you can recall?
The cigarette factory strike and truck drivers. They struck in '38.
What were the grievances? Why were they striking?
I can't recall exactly, because I didn't work in that department. They struck—that was 208—the truck drivers, they was in a union, but it's different one from 208.
The truck drivers and cigarette workers in '34. The cigarette workers were white and black?
Just a few blacks. Weren't but a very few blacks worked over there in that time. Everything over there was white.
The majority of the cigarette workers were white?
Yeah.
How about the truck drivers?
They were white. They just got some black truck drivers recently.
So whites were striking?
Yeah, whites struck.
What was the feeling of blacks?
We had to come out too, 'cause the truck drivers didn't
It's unusual where the strike began. The conditions you were working under were very hard and paying less. The cigarette workers were making more and many of them were white.
They made much more.
The truck drivers were white, and they decided to strike.
They struck, and we had to come out too—truck drivers were in the teamsters union.
Why didn't the whole idea of a strike begin among blacks?
Our union wasn't strong enough at that particular time to strike.
The benefits that occurred as a result of this strike also filtered…
We got some benefit from it.
What benefits did you get?
We got a few pennies in our raises. At that time, our union wasn't strong enough. Being a black union, it took it a little longer to get the strength that the white one did have.
What about the leadership of the union? What type of person was chosen as President?
We had some very, very good leaders. After the union
Were the individuals you picked as leaders, were they younger, were they older?
Well, they wasn't young. I would say middle age. The majority of them was good Christian leaders—church people—were supposed to have been trustworthy.
Were they outstanding in the community?
Outstanding in the community, yes.
All the individuals who held offices in the union were males?
Yeah, except we two women. We were the only two women. They had some secretaries, but not no shop stewards.
Why do you think you were chosen as a shop steward?
They had a vote. The girl died ain't been too long ago—Amanda Wallace—she was the one that offered me for her committee for the shop steward.
That meant that everybody in the union voted for the shop steward?
Voted for me. Whoever got the highest number of votes, that's the one won.
What type of relationship did you as a shop steward have with the management?
I had good relationship with them. They respected me highly, very highly. I always tried to carry myself in a way before I became shop steward that I would be respected then. Even after I became shop steward, then I still had my respect with them. They respected me high as I could expect.
Tell me about some of the grievances that black workers would bring to you since you were a shop steward. What were some of the complaints?
Sometimes they feel like they hadn't been honestly dealt with; they was overworked at times and put too much on them. Maybe one person would be out, and they have to do two people's job or something like that. Sometimes they'd come to you with something that wasn't any good.
Do you recall what complaint that you'd probably work at for a long time and you did go to the management and you did receive some type of … you were quite successful in trying to remedy some of the complaints?
I didn't never have any complaints that bad that it took me a long time to straighten them out.
How did you deal with a complaint?
I would talk to the person, then I would go to the foreman and talk with
him. Then we'd get together and go to the office. I would talk to each
individual, and then we'd take it to the office—the floor office, not
the main office—and we would talk individually, two or three, whichever
was involved. Whoever was in the office, they had to go out 'cause
everybody didn't sit there and listen to what you had to talk about. So
whoever was the timekeeper, whoever was in the office sit there and
listen to what you had to say. So whoever was involved was the one what
did the talking. Whatever your case was, you didn't talk it over with
nobody else. If you had a problem, I didn't go back and tell the other
person what it was. If I worked that problem out, me and this
individual, I'd tell them to keep your mouth shut, since I worked it
out. One thing I had, I saved a boy once. I thought I was going to lose
him. You
You could be fired because of that?
Yeah, you could be fired—even now! They'll fire you now. They give you a pack a day. You're not to be caught with no other brand. Better not let them catch you in the store buying no other brand. They catch you in the store, report it and everything.
Do you recall a complaint that you dealt with and it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to turn out.
Yes, I've had some problems with things that didn't turn out exactly like I wanted it to. But, it wasn't no bad cases. I never had anything that was too bad. We had some men shop stewards too that worked with me. Sometimes I'd get a case that be kind of tight, and I would call on a man to help me, to go in with me. The chairman of the shop stewards, I'd call him in with me when something's real tight. I had just one foreman; he worked on the first floor. He just couldn't stand women; no women worked down there. I had to go down there on my job at that particular time; I was carrying papers all over the building. Every hour I had to carry papers to him. He couldn't stand a woman to do nothing for him.
Were you allowed this freedom to roam around and talk with individuals while you were supposed to be working?
No, you didn't walk around and talk with them like that unless something
happen. No, that was my job. I had to carry papers each hour and tell
how much tobacco, how many thousands pounds you run.
What was that job called?
Really, I can't say what that job was called. I don't know what if they even named it.
So you got that job later?
Later, un-huh.
What other types of jobs would you work in? You said but, you were on the stemming machine, you were taking papers around.
That's about all I did. I checked lines, and all that. I learned to do quite a lot. I helped them do the figuring, me and another girl—Marion Stewart what died, her mother—myself, we kind of used to run around with papers. We'd run all around outdoors and everywhere to different places carrying papers.
What were the union dues?
It was twenty-five cents when you first started.
A week?
Twenty five cent a month.
How many of the workers became members of the union?
We had about 94 percent. At one time, we probably had a little more than that, but some people gets kind of weak. We had a little more than 94 percent one time. I would say we had around 94 percent.
Were there any other strikes? I think you mentioned that there was one in '34.
No, that's the only one.
That was the only strike that you can recall?
That's the only one.
And blacks never got together for any type of changes?
The strike didn't affect us. The only thing was, we had to be out because the trucks didn't run. We didn't strike, but if the trucks didn't run to bring the tobacco into us, we couldn't work.
Were the conditions better working in the factory in '34?
Yes, the conditions were better.
They were better now?
Yeah.
Why? Because the union was there?
Well, the union was established and also when Roosevelt came in. We got President Roosevelt in, everything brightened up. The conditions began to get better then.
So you sensed some of the results of the strike? They did take place…
We had some effect from it, I mean some benefits. Those white girls drew so much more than we did. We'd go down to Belk's store to cash checks. They had a place in the basement, and we'd go down there and cash checks. You'd see they check, and it'd make your heart stop beating almost.
Wouldn't that be a reason to strike, if you weren't making anything?
Well, you weren't strong enough to get up there, just weren't strong
enough. It takes strength. It takes some strength to get up. That didn't
come about—I tell you we worked for a long time—that didn't come about
till integration. It didn't change until integration. When the
integration came about, then the black women
You mentioned that the black union did not strike because you weren't strong enough. What does it take for a union to be strong?
Our people didn't stick close enough together. One thing, they would pay the money, then we just didn't have the strength. You have to have a whole lot of strength to get up there to strike.
You mean you've got to have people that are willing?
Willing, yeah, to go out. They got to vote to go out. You have to vote to go out on strike. That's what's strength. You have to vote to go out. So many of them, some few had started to buying homes. "I'm buying a home. I can't strike. I ain't going to strike. I ain't going to do this." That's where it takes strength. You have to sacrifice anything you get or do.
Blacks at that time weren't really…
They weren't strong enough.
In regard to the black women that were working there, would you say that many of them have large families?
Yes, some of them had quite large families.
So therefore, the job was a necessity.
It was a very necessity for them.
As a union leader, I'm quite sure you became a very respectable and outstanding black woman.
Well, I was. I went everywhere. I went to conventions everywhere. I went to Rochester to the international convention, went to Louisville, Kentucky to the international convention, went to all the state conventions in Petersburg, Virginia, Richmond, Virginia. One time we went to Petersburg, Virginia to a convention, and we was supposed to meet at a union hall—white and black was going to meet together—and they wouldn't let us meet together—said the blacks couldn't meet there; that's what the police said. They got to put us out, and snow was on the ground.
About what year was this?
That was about '41 or '42. We had to leave there and went to the "Y", and they let us meet there. Virginia was very segregated, much worse than it was here, and we couldn't meet together. They'd come here and all of us'd meet together. But we go there, we had to meet at a certain place; they wouldn't let us meet in the union hall. Went to the "Y" and met there.
At some of the union meetings, what did you discuss at your meetings?
We had these union meetings, and the first thing, of course, would be on
the agenda just like roll-call and collections, and then what problems
had come up. The shop stewards had to report the problems they had.
Were there any pressing problems? You were affiliated with the union from '34 till the time that you were let off. Were there any pressing problems that the union had to deal with?
Yes, we had some few problems. Not in the department what I was in. We had some men was laid off. I know a man belonged to your church, and they fired him. He stayed out, I forget how many months—Mr. Jones that live out on Alston Avenue—they fired him. He was unjustly fired. He went on out and find him a job somewhere else. They got that man back, and Liggett and Myers had to pay him for all them months he was out, and put him back to work. I recall some more jobs like that.
How did you all do that?
That was the union. He was unjustly fired.
So the union went to the management…
They went to the management and fight it down until they got him back.
This was what union? Had the union now merged?
They hadn't merged at that time.
This was the black union?
The black union.
They went to the management.
They carried that to the management. They didn't stop at the office in the building, they had to take that to the main office which is over on the main street there.
Did black women have any special complaints that might have dealt with they being women? Any complaints that really affected them as a woman?
No, they didn't complain about it. People didn't complain because, as I
told you before, a job was a job, and people didn't complain
You say things got better after '34. Those that worked at the factory, were you working night hours still?
We went to eight hours a day.
Did you have to stand?
I stood till the last day I left there.
So you were still standing.
Still standing.
And you got some penny raises?
We got some raises along.
But things got better?
They got better, much better.
In what way other than getting penny raises?
The working conditions was better. They changed the machinery, and the work wasn't as hard. It was differently done, and it made it easy to do. They changed the machinery as the years passed, made it easier to do. Tobacco wasn't as dirty as it once was.
When was it when they got the first black foreman?
They had black foremans when I went there in '25. Mr. Claude Farrington.
What was he a foreman of…
He was under this white man I'm talking about—Mr.
So there were black foremen?
They had some black foremans then. Mr. Morris—you know lawyer Morris—his grandfather, he was foreman.
That was in the twenties.
When I went there, they were foremans.
Now did black women ever have black foremen?
Yeah, but the white man was over him. He had to do what the white man said.
So that means there was a foreman, then a supervisor?
Supervisor, yeah.
Were there ever any black supervisors?
They never had any women supervisors.
Did they have any black men supervisors?
They had those two up there where I worked at—Mr. and Mr. Claude Farrington. You know Montrose Scott, her mother's daddy—Gertrude's daddy—he was the foreman, Mr. Claude Farrington. Montrose said she didn't know it till she was in a meeting here this year. Her granddaddy was a foreman way back there then. She was in a meeting and somebody told her; her mama had never told her. People should tell their children these things. Her mother never told her; she didn't know it. I was sitting here telling her about it, she said, "You the second person told me that. Mama ain't never told me." Mr. Morris, he was foreman on the first floor. That's lawyer Morris' grandfather—Mr. Ike Morris, he was Ellis' brother, and he was Mr. Andrew Morris, Mr. Ike Morris' two brothers—they were foremans.
How did a black foreman treat you?
Mr. Farrington was kind of nasty, but some of them was nice. We had another one, Mr. Emmet Brady—Miss Helen Brady used to live around Roxboro Street till he died—her husband, he was a foreman for the stemmers. They had some foremans. People think they just recently put black foremans, but they had them back there then.
In the twenties, was there a hosiery mill in Durham?
Yeah, right up here on—what's the name of the street? They had several hosiery mills here at that time.
Did black women work at the hosiery mills?
Yeah, black women worked at the hosiery mill. Right up here where Shirley's friend lives, that was a hosiery mill.
Do you know if there were any more or less than tobacco workers?
I never worked there, but I don't know. They worked by the piece. You had to do a certain amount to make your salary. They did different things; some of them topped, and some of them knitted and did different things. I never worked in the hosiery mill.
Do you know of any black women that worked in tobacco that decided to work in hosiery?
No. I know some left the hosiery mill and went to working in tobacco.
They went the other way.
So they must have made more. I know some of them left there.
What was Durham like in the 20's and 30's?
It was better than it is today in one sense, because the only thing, the theatres were segregated. They used to have good floor shows here. They had a good floor show right down in front of the old court house there—was called a offering.
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[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
The Carolina Theatre, the blacks had to go way to that top floor up there, all them stairs they had to walk up to get in the theatre. They had good shows though, and nice shopping downtown.
You worked on the fourth floor at Liggett and Myers. Did you have to take the stairs to get up there?
You had to take the stairs early years, but later years, they allowed you
to ride the elevator. But early years, you wasn't allowed to put your
feet on the elevator unless you fell out and
Describe the bathroom facilities you had in between the floors?
The bathrooms was fair, as well as you could expect at that time.
I was talking with Margaret Turner, and she was telling me—this was at another tobacco, American—she was hired as a cleaner woman to clean up the bathrooms. Did you have a cleaning woman in the factory?
Yeah, we always had a cleaning woman.
Was she black or white?
Black. No white women worked over there.
That was her responsibility?
That was her responsibility, to clean the bathrooms.
In working in the factory in the 20's and 30's, were there any type of central air conditioning?
No, no. You didn't perspire, you sweated.
Describe the room that you worked in?
Just great big huge rooms. When I first went down on the fourth floor, we didn't have sky lights, but they later put sky lights. It opened them up because they was quite a lot of steam was on that floor. That where they ordered tobacco at was on that floor. It was quite a lot of steam, and the later years, they put some sky lights which let that steam out through the roof. On the third floor, I seen women come out there at lunch time and have to pull off their clothes and change clothes, they'd be so wet. That's why they deserved more money, cause that was a hard job, feeding them stemming machines. Be wet to the bottom of their dress.
Would that be considered a hard job?
That was the hardest job, it was - very hard job.
Compared with the other jobs that black women were doing, were those who worked on the stemming machine making more?
Yeah, they made more after they started the raises in '34. They got more; they got a ten cent raise on the first raise. From then on, they still got more money. They always got more money.
Someone was telling me that there was located on the floor a type of salt dispenser?
Yeah, they had a salt dispenser.
Do you recall ever using it?
I never perspired that bad until I got old.
Do you recall women using it?
Yes, quite a few people used it. I have used it, but just occasionally.
What about water fountains? Did you have water fountains for women?
Yes, we had water fountains. Had black and white to begin with. When segregation came about, now everybody drank anywhere.
Were those fountains on the immediate floor?
On the immediate floor, yeah. When I first went there, they didn't even have no sinks in the bathroom. They had a great long sink out on the floor. Everybody had to come out there and wash their hands. Didn't furnish no towels or nothing. But the later years, they put sinks in the bathroom and had paper towels and roller towels also for you to wash your hands with soap.
What about women that did have children? Do you know how those children were taken care of while they were working?
They left them with people. That's the best way they could to get to work. There weren't no day care centers.
How far did you live from the factory?
I lived over in North Durham; I walked - it wasn't far.
What about those days when it was snowing and raining?
It didn't rain or snow, we waded right on. Weren't no bus to ride. People walked from right down in here; it was called Pearson Town. They walked from down here to Liggett and Myers.
Someone was telling me also that if you were not there on time, they would turn you around.
Turn you around and send you back home. That's true.
Did that ever happen to you?
No, I've never been a person to be sent back because I'm a person who always got up. If I know I had to go to work, I got up, and if I know what snow was on the ground, I got up earlier in order to get there. I turned myself around one time, and that was 1927. We had a big, deep snow in '27 in April. I went out and the snow came up so far on me till the line came up to here on me. That snow was so deep, I dropped my lunch, and I turned around and went back in the house. My husband working at the American Tobacco Company, he kept going to work, and I went back in the house.
Were there different shifts?
No, there weren't no different shifts. Didn't have but one shift originally.
So everybody worked that shift?
Later years, they come on with extra shifts in emergencies; they didn't run them regular, but during the war time, they run double shifts for quite a while. It wasn't no regular thing for them to have two shifts.
Did you ever have occasion to see the owners?
Yes, they come through. I wouldn't say the owner, but the head manager. They would come through.
What type impression did you have of the head manager?
You wasn't even allowed hardly to look up when they come through.
You were supposed to be busy at work.
Busy at work when they come through; you had to see them and not see them. They didn't talk to you when they come through. They just come through and look. You had to clean up everything, get every speck and everything off the floor when they'd be looking for them. They called, let them know when they was coming, and they'd had them floors just a-shining when they got in there. Everybody'd stay in their place, don't be walking up and down the aisles while they in there.
Later, did the work become monotonous?
No, I made it fine. I never had no problems whatsoever.
When did women begin to wear uniforms in the factory?
They started wearing uniforms in 1928.
Did you pay for each of them?
To begin with, they gave you three uniforms. Later years, you had to buy them.
Were you required to make sure they were cleaned every day?
You had to have clean aprons and things on.
The type of work that some of you were doing, that meant that by that time, you would probably have to wash when you got home.
That's right.
What would you do when you got from the factory and came home. What were your responsibilities there?
I'd get home in the afternoons, if my husband hadn't cooked—most of the time, he got home early. Later years, he went to work earlier; we didn't go to work at the same time. He would go to work early, and sometimes he'd be home and cooked by the time I got home—so I maybe had to wash. Didn't have on a scrubboard, no washer machine and no washerette to go to. I went on that scrubboard and wash my clothes, hang them out. If I went to church or to a meeting—I always worked in church, always did that.
So that meant that when you got home, you still had another job.
Another job, yeah.
What time would you usually go to bed to get ready to go to work?
I've never been a person went to bed too early. I never went to bed no earlier than 10:00 unless I was sure enough tired. Ten o'clock or maybe 11:00.
You said you had been sort of sickly. What was your problem?
Phlebitis.
Do you think that had any connection with…
Well, it could have been from standing. With the poor circulation, it could have come from standing all those years. It could have came from standing because it come from poor circulation and not moving around. Standing there that many hours and that long, it could have come from that.
What were the advantages of working at Liggett and Myers. Looking back now at almost forty some years that you gave to Liggett and Myers. What was the effect of working at Liggett and Myers in regard to how it affected your life?
You had to make a living somewhere. It was a decent, honest job, and as I forestated, you made more there than you'd make anywhere else. They didn't have no benefits up until the later years. That came about with the hospital insurance. When the hospital insurance first came around, nobody got it but the teachers. Teachers used to have hospital insurance, and they'd get out of school. They'd go to the hospital and lay out and rest. They don't allow you to lay up now sick, but they used to have quite a break. We couldn't get it for years—insurance. When they got it in the factories, they paid for that. They paid hospital insurance, and you didn't have to pay for your life insurance.
You mentioned that you were a high school graduate. Being a high school graduate, would that have given you an advantage in the 40's and 50's with certain jobs in the factory?
Yeah, because like I said about carrying those papers and running, you had to know what you were doing to keep up with those records and things. It give you some advantage.
Were you able to buy a home as a result of working?
No, my husband and I didn't never buy a home—my first husband. We didn't never buy a home.
Did you make enough?
We made enough to do it, but he was pressed and couldn't sense it.
Did you make enough to make it through a week?
Oh yes, I made enough to make it. I've never been on the poverty level where I couldn't eat from week to week and buy the necessity things I needed.
Was Liggett and Myers for black people a source of financial stability in the 20's and 30's.
Yes, it really was.
What about the Depression?
During the Depression, they just cut down and cut down and cut off and cut off. There won't be a few people working, but when Roosevelt was elected our President, they hired back; they'd hire them back by the hundreds. Hired them back by the hundreds when Roosevelt had taken his seat. There were so many people in the street during the Depression.
Did it affect your life?
No, I never was affected—I thank God for that—by the Depression, never was affected.
You were not one of the ones that…
No, I wasn't affected whatsoever. My husband either; he worked at American Tobacco Company.
Did you ever do any seasonal work?
The last few years we were there, we did seasonal work. That's what we did in the last few years. Worked every year, but it would be seasonal—the last few years we were there.
What would you say that you disliked most about working at Liggett and Myers?
Disliked? I don't know if I could really pick out anything really.
What did you like about working for Liggett and Myers?
As I forestated, it was a decent job.
You just about could do anything to make money?
Yeah.
Is there any comments that you would like to make as a black
I can comment some. Through all those years working at the factory, when they terminated this plant and moved it to Rocky Mount, I was fortunate to be able to reach out and get another job. I sewed—I do seamstress work, and I been able to still do something. I was able to get out and do something else, because I never believed in just pinning yourself down. Any job I'm on, I'm going to learn it all if I can learn it, learn everything I can learn about that job. What I learn on the job today, I carry home. The supervisor don't carry it home at night, but what I learn, he can't take it away from me. I learned that years ago when I was quite young. Learn everything you can on that job, then nobody can't take it away from you, and learn something else besides that job. When they terminated that plant and moved it to Rocky Mount because the labor was much cheaper there than it was here, they terminated the plant here and moved it to Rocky Mount. White women worked over there where we was working now. White women working over there now. If I hadn't known anything else to done, I wouldn't been able to work none. I went right on a seamstress job back to work and still do seamstress work.
What plant did they terminate?
They terminated the stemmery.
That's where the majority of black women worked?
Where the majority of the blacks worked.
They let everybody go.
All that worked in that particular building. Some of them had more
seniority than I had. They still kept them, but they moved them in
another small place over there known as the blending
I know you mentioned that you did have a sister that worked in Liggett and Myers. What is your sister's name?
Alma H. Harris.
She retired from Liggett and Myers. You have five sisters?
Just three of them. There was once originally five, two passed.
What's your other sister's name?
Minnie Walker. She lives in Bronx, New York.
And your other sister?
The other two are deceased. Her name was Willie Johnson. She lived in Fuquay Varina, North Carolina.
The other name?
Dorothy Ingram. She lives here; that's the baby.
Did she work in tobacco?
No, she never did. She did domestic work.
How many brothers and sisters did your husband, Mr. Jones have?
It was seven boys and two girls.
Do you know if any of them ever worked in tobacco, or did they just remain in Apex?
No, his home is in Granville County. Beside him, one of them did work there a little short time. He's dead now. One of his brothers worked American Tobacco for a short time. He worked for American Tobacco Company.
I want to thank you for this interview. It will be very
END OF INTERVIEW