Title:Oral History Interview with Walter Durham, January 19 and 26,
2001. Interview K-0540. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Electronic Edition.
Author:
Durham, Walter,
interviewee
Interview conducted by
Gilgor, Bob
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Mike Millner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2006
Size of electronic edition: 208 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2006.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text:
English
Revision history:
2006-00-00, Celine Noel and Wanda Gunther revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
edition.
2006-07-19, Mike Millner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of sound recording: Oral History Interview with Walter Durham,
January 19 and 26, 2001. Interview K-0540. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series K. Southern Communities. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (K-0540)
Author: Bob Gilgor
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Walter Durham, January
19 and 26, 2001. Interview K-0540. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series K. Southern Communities. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (K-0540)
Author: Walter Durham
Description: 240 Mb
Description: 41 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on January 19 and 26, 2001, by Bob
Gilgor; recorded in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series K. Southern Communities, Manuscripts Department,
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
references. All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as " All em dashes are encoded as —
Interview with Walter Durham, January 19 and 26, 2001. Interview K-0540.
Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Durham, Walter,
interviewee
Interview Participants
WALTER
DURHAM, interviewee
BOB
GILGOR, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
BOB GILGOR:
This is January the 19th in the year 2001. This is Bob Gilgor
interviewing Walter Durham at Northside. Good morning, Walter.
WALTER DURHAM:
Good morning.
BOB GILGOR:
How are you today?
WALTER DURHAM:
I'm doing just fine.
BOB GILGOR:
Good. I appreciate you coming here and letting me interview you. The
first question I want to ask is where you grew up and what it was like
growing up.
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, Bob, I grew up about five miles outside of Carrboro, off of
Highway 54 West.. My grandfather accumulated about ninety acres of land
out there years ago. Most of the family grew up on that land. I was born
, raised , and still reside there to this present day.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you do farming out there?
WALTER DURHAM:
We did a lot of farming in the early years. But right now people mostly
grow small gardens or whatever, but no farming. Farming is just in the
past for them now.
BOB GILGOR:
But growing up you did farming?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes we did a lot of farming.
BOB GILGOR:
Your mother and father lived there with you, your grandparents?
Page 2
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much. My mother, grandmother, and grandfather lived there. My
father died when I was at an early age, when I was about one. So I never
had the experience of knowing him.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of woman was your mother?
WALTER DURHAM:
I guess growing up at the time when I grew up, raising eight children, I
would say that she was a strong lady. Because today, with me being a
father myself and having a wife, it's hard to raise two children. So
with eight children, she had to have a lot of strength, a lot of inner
strength that a lot of people don't know anything about because you
never see it, you just experience it. That didn't sound right. You never
know the feeling of them because they worked hard. They went to work
everyday, and the little money they had, they made it work.
BOB GILGOR:
Did your mother work at home, on the farm, or did she work outside?
WALTER DURHAM:
She did domestic work. Worked in other people's homes, whatever was
needed.
BOB GILGOR:
Did she ever talk to you about the work that she was doing?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. Not that much.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have family around? Were your grandparents nearby, or aunts,
uncles nearby?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well on that ninety acres of land, where my grandfather and grandmother,
they had eleven children. And I'd say about seven of them raised
families on that land. So it was pretty much uncles and aunts, a lot of
cousins. My grandmother passed this past year. She was 101. I don't have
the exact numbers here with me, but if I'm not mistaken it was something
like fifty-something grandchildren, about eighty great-grandchildren,
and a host of great-great-grandchildren, and on down the line. So it was
a pretty big family. And at certain times, just about all of us got
together at family reunions. We all pretty much grew up together.
BOB GILGOR:
So on that ninety acres, you had your grandparents, your grandmother,
your grandfather, you had your mother, you had seven brothers and
sisters—.
WALTER DURHAM:
Not me. She did.
BOB GILGOR:
Right. Then you had aunts and uncles.
WALTER DURHAM:
Excuse me. You asked me the question did I seven brothers and sisters.
Ok, yes, you're right. But yes, I had uncles and aunts. Just a host of
cousins.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you look at them as a support system for you?
Page 3
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Because everything was pretty close at that time. A close-knit
family. We depended on each other. What we didn't have, they had, or
what they didn't have, we had. So we pretty much shared everything:
food, clothes, everything else.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you feel as though you had enough food to go around or did you feel
like some days there wasn't enough food in the house to make it?
WALTER DURHAM:
That was one thing that we did have: we had plenty of food. There seemed
to never be a shortage of food.
BOB GILGOR:
Do you look back at your childhood as happy days, or days of sadness, or
problems?
WALTER DURHAM:
Very happy days. Because you didn't know anything about problems. When
you're that close and you're surrounded by all the people that you know,
you don't know too much about the outside world's problems. But until
you started growing up then you started realizing there's problems. So
it was mostly problem-free.
BOB GILGOR:
What was your house like?
WALTER DURHAM:
I was raised in an old home place. No running water, no bathrooms, no
lights. Everyone that lived out there, pretty much didn't have running
water. So it was pretty much the way of life. It was all right.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have interactions—as you were growing up on those ninety
acres—did you have interactions with white children?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much. The community, people's land that was next to ours, we
pretty much grew up with them, became friends to them. We played a
little bit. Still know each other today. When we see each other we talk.
Didn't have too many problems.
BOB GILGOR:
Who was the head of your family? Was it your grandmother, or an uncle or
an aunt? Your grandfather?
WALTER DURHAM:
My grandmother. She was a strong black lady. She called the shots pretty
much.
BOB GILGOR:
What do you think made her the head of the family? Any characteristics
that she had that allowed her to be the head of the family?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, my grandfather, very good man but very quiet. He didn't really
take a stand. And I guess it was the stand that she took. She'd come
from a large family and I think that she was the oldest. She
Page 4
was used to just being in charge. When she raised a family of
her own, she just stayed that way, so it didn't change.
BOB GILGOR:
When did you start school?
WALTER DURHAM:
I started school in '54, '55.
BOB GILGOR:
Were you six years old then?
WALTER DURHAM:
Six years old.
BOB GILGOR:
And where did you go to school?
WALTER DURHAM:
Right here. Northside elementary.
BOB GILGOR:
What are your memories of Northside?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, I remember the people that I grew up with: the teachers and the
principal. And everybody just seemed to be like a community, people you
can confide in, people that you can talk to. It seemed like it wasn't a
separate group all the same. No one had that much more than anybody else
so no one looked down on anybody. It was pretty much more a family than
a school, something that you looked forward to coming to every day. You
wake up in the morning and you're ready to get to school.
BOB GILGOR:
How did you get to school? You lived a long ways out.
WALTER DURHAM:
When I first started school, we lived on Merritt Mill Road. We stayed in
Chapel Hill for four or five years of my life. I used to walk to school
when I first started. But the bus always ran from there. So when we
moved back there when I was in the sixth grade, we caught the bus, the
bus would come by the house.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you know the teachers outside of going to school? Were they out in
the community, or church?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, no I didn't know them too much from outside of school.
BOB GILGOR:
Did they visit your house?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of discipline did you get at school if you misbehaved?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, you'd get a spanking—you'd get whupped. An attention-getter, if
that's what you want to call it. You didn't go unpunished for what you
done. And you learned to appreciate that, you learn to know that this is
wrong. So I agree with what they did.
Page 5
BOB GILGOR:
Now if you misbehaved in school, you got a switch, or you got some kind
of punishment. You got hit in school. Now, when you went home, did your
mother know that this had happened to you?
WALTER DURHAM:
They would soon know it quickly, because the teacher would inform them
that they had to do this. So when you got home it was pretty much
repeated.
BOB GILGOR:
You got it twice?
WALTER DURHAM:
You got it twice. Each teacher had their own ways of how they would
spank you. I had one that would take a ruler and pop you in the hands. I
had one that would make you roll your britches legs up. She would take a
little switch and make you turn around in circles. It wasn't any abuse.
More or less to let you know what you've done wasn't going to be
tolerable.
BOB GILGOR:
When you say it wasn't physical abuse. Did it go on for very long?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
So you're talking about a few seconds of getting a switch or a ruler?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Nothing you'd have to carry to the hospital or anything like that,
and nothing even that was that a bit of a concern. It might sting a
little while.
BOB GILGOR:
Did kids cry when they were disciplined like that?
WALTER DURHAM:
Mostly girls. [Laughter.]
BOB GILGOR:
Boys didn't cry?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. Girls started crying before it even started happening. It wasn't
that the pain was so great. I guess it's just their nature to even think
about it.
BOB GILGOR:
So you looked forward to going to school every morning?
WALTER DURHAM:
Looked forward to going to school. As a matter of fact we used to get to
school early because back then we played a lot of marbles. You'd get to
school forty-five minutes to an hour before school started. And you're
playing marbles way before school let in. And then at the end of school
that day, recess or whatever, you're playing marbles again. At the end
of school you'd play marbles for an hour before you'd go home.
BOB GILGOR:
So that was the big game here at Northside, marbles?
WALTER DURHAM:
Marbles, yes.
BOB GILGOR:
How'd you do at marbles?
Page 6
WALTER DURHAM:
I was pretty good. I thought I was. I don't even know how the game
hardly goes now. But I was pretty decent.
BOB GILGOR:
What were some of the other activities that went on at the school
besides the things in the schoolyard like marbles? Did you have singing?
Did you have a band? Did you have acting on stage? Drama, things like
that?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yeah, we had a variety of everything. I remember when one class was a
little show at doing some thing, they would pull another class in to
show the other class how to do it. There was always some sort of
activity to keep your attention. Just about every holiday we had some
kind of activities and we had to sing something for the parents to come
to school to look at.
BOB GILGOR:
Like a chorus, a choir?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't remember having a chorus or a choir. I think it was just
different class activities. Something just for that event, not something
that you was in for the whole year.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have books in school, or did you have to buy your own books?
WALTER DURHAM:
We had books at school.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have an encyclopedia at home?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have a dictionary at home?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't think so, no.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there books at home? Did you have a supply of old books or new
books at home?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much just the books that we saved from school.
BOB GILGOR:
You looked at your teachers as part of a family. Can you describe that
feeling a little bit more? What is it that the teachers did that made
them family to you?
WALTER DURHAM:
I remember a case. I stayed with my grandmother in the country. We were
staying in town at that particular time. My sister was supposed to bring
my lunch money to school next day and she didn't come. So I was left
without any lunch that day. And the first thing that the teacher noticed
was that I didn't have any lunch, and she took care of it.
Page 7
You know, anybody, not just me. It was just a concern to me
because they were the last one to leave. They stayed more involved in
your life. If they would spank you, they wouldn't leave it there. They
would notify your parents that you had done such and such a thing. Today
I see that a child may get in trouble fifteen times before you would
know it at home. Once you know it at home, they got a whole list of
things that go back, six months ago or last year at the school—his trail
right here. "Well why didn't I know it back here so I could do something
about it?" You know, someone that you could talk to. And I just saw it
as being someone that cared for you. And I didn't realize that. I didn't
realize that until I went out to Chapel Hill High School.
BOB GILGOR:
You feel that at Chapel Hill High School, that wasn't the way it was?
WALTER DURHAM:
That wasn't the way it was. Very separate.
BOB GILGOR:
Let's talk about that in a little bit Let's just go on and talk some
more about your community and Lincoln High School and then we'll go on
to Chapel Hill High if you don't mind. I wanted to ask you if you,
growing up, saw in the African-American community much alcohol abuse or
you saw physical abuse? What you're describing to me are very happy
times, close-knit family, but every society has some bad things about
it, too. And I'm wondering how much of this you saw in growing up.
WALTER DURHAM:
Well I saw a lot of alcohol abuse. I saw physical abuse. In growing up,
I saw people get shot, people get cut. And I saw a lot of both sides.
Not that much within my family. But I did see wife or spousal abuse. I
saw a lot of good and bad.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there anything in particular that stood out to you, on the good side
or on the bad side?
WALTER DURHAM:
Nothing that I can really talk about at this present moment. Maybe later
on in your questions I might be able to.
BOB GILGOR:
So you graduated from Northside in sixth grade?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
And then, where did you go from there, Walter?
WALTER DURHAM:
Frank Porter Graham.
BOB GILGOR:
So that was what year? Nineteen—?
WALTER DURHAM:
I want to say I left then '59. I think we left Northside in '58. Went
one year to Frank Porter Graham.
Page 8
BOB GILGOR:
And was Frank Porter Graham a black school, or was it integrated?
WALTER DURHAM:
Black.
BOB GILGOR:
And how long did you stay there?
WALTER DURHAM:
One year.
BOB GILGOR:
And then where?
WALTER DURHAM:
To Lincoln High School.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you tell me about Lincoln? What was Lincoln High School like?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well it was pretty much a very disciplined school. Very strictly run. It
was just about none tolerance school. Had a principal at the time that I
didn't like. But I didn't understand what he was trying to do, either.
But I learned to like him after we left Lincoln. Then I understood what
he was trying to do. It was a school that you could go in, no paper on
the school campus, hallway shined like new money all the time. You could
drink out of the commode in the bathrooms, it was kept just that clean.
If you got in trouble there, the biggest person probably who would spank
you when you were in high school was the gym coach. They had their ways
at Lincoln High School, we called it the coal mine. If you would get
caught doing something you had no business doing you could get sent to
the coal mine. The coal mine was under the school. The janitor would
shovel coals into the furnace to keep it warm, whatever. And if you got
in trouble, you were sent to help him, or you'd be sent to keep the
school clean. Whatever you had done, people knew that you were under
punishment.
BOB GILGOR:
They could see you?
WALTER DURHAM:
They couldn't see you in the coal mine. But your classmates knew where
you were.
BOB GILGOR:
Could they tell by the coal dust getting on you that you had been down
there?
WALTER DURHAM:
[Laughter.] No, it wasn't that bad in getting coal dust on you. But you'd
probably stay down there for a whole class period.
BOB GILGOR:
So you'd shovel coal for an hour?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Besides being a very disciplined school, what are your other memories of
Lincoln and the teachers there?
Page 9
WALTER DURHAM:
Most of them took time out to teach. You know, didn't take a whole class
and just move ahead and if one or two was left back there they were left
on their own to get it. It seemed like they took the time and pulled
everybody ahead at one time. And I liked that. It was more to me back
then when you got bad grades, the teacher would work with you one on one
with it.
BOB GILGOR:
So they really took time and cared for you?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you feel like they were your advocate, or your friend helping you?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well I took it as being your parents, number one, and your teacher,
number two.
BOB GILGOR:
So they were more like an absentee parent to you?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. And somebody that really cared for you.
BOB GILGOR:
Were most of the teachers that way, or just a few?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well I had my share of problems. The majority of problems that I had I
created myself.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of problems?
WALTER DURHAM:
Like I said I grew up without a father. And I would challenge just about
anything. I would push things to the limit. So it wasn't a major
problem—it wasn't a problem that you would go to jail for or something
like that—but I had a hard time with authority and I had a hard time
with people telling me what to do. I thought I was my own man. And being
in a household with eight, and I was the third child—my brother, he was
the oldest, but he always stayed with my grandmother. So I was
mostly—then the next one was my sister. So I was caught doing a lot of
things. I had to draw the water and cut the wood, and all the things
that a man would have done if he was in the household. So I considered
myself as being growner than what I was.
BOB GILGOR:
You had a lot of responsibility in the house? Different things that
needed to be done there? So Mr. McDougle was the principal, I take it,
when you were in school at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
And he was a strict disciplinarian.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. He was very strict. He would come on every morning on the intercom
getting to school, about five minute talk before class let in. And when
that bell rings for the school to turn in, then you'd see
Page 10
him going to the front door to see who going to come in
after that bell ring. And you just may get sent back home. It all
depends on what time you come and what kind of excuse you have for being
late.
BOB GILGOR:
So he was at the front door most mornings, greeting the children?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he know your name?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Besides being a disciplinarian, did he ever ask you about your grades,
or encourage you in any way?
WALTER DURHAM:
I can't remember that. Can't remember that part.
BOB GILGOR:
Any particular teachers stand out in your mind, Walter?
WALTER DURHAM:
There's a lot of teachers I can see in my head, but I can't call their
names. I should have wrote these names down when I was thinking them.
But most of them was pretty good teachers.
BOB GILGOR:
What are the kinds of things that you did that got you in trouble,
Walter?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, like I said, wasn't any of them worthy of going to jail for. But
most of them just being class clown, something like that, just pulling
little tricks, gags, just to make somebody laugh, just to be seen,
whatever.
BOB GILGOR:
Were you into any outside activities at school like sports or band or
singing or acting?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, I played football. I grew up in a baseball family. And I played
some semi-pro baseball once I got older. I come from a baseball family.
The majority of my cousins and stuff played baseball. And that was one
thing that I was very looking forward for in going down to Lincoln High
School because I thought we had a good baseball team. But once I got old
enough to play baseball, they cut the baseball team out at school. So I
did play football, but I got hurt and got put in the hospital and the
doctor asked me not to play any more.
BOB GILGOR:
What did you do?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well I got my leg burnt when I was a little bitty boy, three years old.
Playing around the wash pot. Britches leg caught on fire. And then the
guy came by and spiked me on that same leg. Cleats on the football shoe
didn't have that little rubber thing. It was about three weeks later
before I went to the doctor. It had gotten infected. I hadn't planned on
going then, but one of the football players saw it when
Page 11
we was showering. They noticed I was hopping real bad. Then
he went and told the coach, and the coach took me to the hospital at
that same instance and they kept me for about a month.
BOB GILGOR:
Oh, my. Must have been bad.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. They had to cut it out, graft skin from my back to put over that
spot, then that graft had to take and all of that stuff.
BOB GILGOR:
How long did you play football?
WALTER DURHAM:
That was my first year out [laughs]. I was pretty good at it. But it saw
the end of me. I probably could have still played, but I took it from
the doctor.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of football team did they have at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
Probably the best in the State. The year that I was there, probably
wasn't the best team, but they lost one game that year. They have had
teams that they didn't lose a game. Out of ten games, nine of them the
team didn't score on them. They beat Mount Holly 106 to 0. They was
running up scores then, about beat Pittsboro something like 88 to 0.
They beat Hennison, I think that was the lowest score that we played,
and that was 36 to 0. On record we probably had the best team in the
State.
BOB GILGOR:
How big was your class? How many students in the class?
WALTER DURHAM:
I want to say, if I'm not making a mistake, the whole school wasn't
about 300-some students. If you want to just say the eighth grade,
probably about fifty. And you had about three classes at that time for
each grade.
BOB GILGOR:
So you had about fifteen to twenty students in each class?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much.
BOB GILGOR:
That's a real small school. Did you play small schools, or did you play
larger schools?
WALTER DURHAM:
We should have been something like a 1A, and we played 3A. It wasn't
because of the size of the school, it was because of the athletes that
Lincoln was producing.
BOB GILGOR:
What made Lincoln so good at football?
WALTER DURHAM:
I couldn't tell you. Well, we had a very disciplinary coach, you would
have to start it from there. But you had great athletes, good athletes.
Back then they ran a three-man backfield. And any one of those three
guys they could have handed the ball to and could've run a 90-yard
touchdown. And I'm talking about on the first string. And then you had a
second string that could do just as well as the first string. In
Page 12
due time they got their glory, but you can just go
back from year after year after year and you would look at this and say,
"Man, where did these guys come from?" I guess there was more heart. But
it would be hard to account for why they were so good. But they was.
They were just really good.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have any help with your coaching from the university players?
Did they ever come by and help the team practice?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. There were guys who would graduate from high school. A lot of them
went on to college. Some of them would come back and help during the
summer or something like that. But the head coach was the man that was
pretty much working by himself.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you get any of your equipment from the university?
WALTER DURHAM:
That I couldn't tell you because we always had pretty good uniforms. I
think we did. I'm not for sure.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you play any scrimmages at the university?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. Chapel Hill High School wouldn't play us. We always tried to line it
up to scrimmage or play them or something but they wouldn't play us.
BOB GILGOR:
Why do you think that was?
WALTER DURHAM:
That I couldn't tell you. I don't think that they were sort of afraid,
but if you would had to go on the record saying that we [unclear] over and over and over, I'm thinking that they was a little
afraid to play. Or either they just didn't want to break any ice or
whatever.
BOB GILGOR:
So you were at Lincoln High for two years?
WALTER DURHAM:
Three years.
BOB GILGOR:
What grades were you there?
WALTER DURHAM:
Eighth, ninth, and tenth.
BOB GILGOR:
And then in eleventh grade, it was what, 1966?
WALTER DURHAM:
'67. Well, hold it, hold it, hold it. Went there in '66. '67 was the
first class of that year. Started in '66.
BOB GILGOR:
Started in '66. And what were the differences that you saw between
Lincoln High School and the new Chapel Hill High School that was
integrated?
Page 13
WALTER DURHAM:
Going into an entirely new school system, from one extreme to the other
one. It was just something entirely new, entirely different. Never
experienced before, never knew it even existed. Different people,
different attitudes. People that don't want to be with you and don't
want you there. The welcome mat just wasn't rolled out at all.
Everything that's come from Chapel Hill High School, that's what they
adopt in the new Chapel Hill High School. Nothing from Lincoln High
School that they accepted. Even down to our sports record. Everything
that came down from Lincoln, you either were assistant or they didn't
hire you.
BOB GILGOR:
When you say you were either an assistant or you didn't get hired, do
you mean sports?
WALTER DURHAM:
Sports, principal, everything.
BOB GILGOR:
What about the teachers? Were any of the black teachers hired from
Lincoln to Chapel Hill High?
WALTER DURHAM:
Very few. Very few. I guess some of the old teachers was hired.
BOB GILGOR:
So you had the feeling that the welcome mat wasn't out?
WALTER DURHAM:
Oh, no. It definitely wasn't out. Even though several of the people I
know in my class, even down to Nate Davis, they started going to Chapel
Hill High School when it was at the old Chapel Hill High School. So I
think people really started going to that school two years earlier that
the doors opened. So I think it was more of an experimental thing that
they were doing there.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there fights between blacks and whites at the new high school?
WALTER DURHAM:
Constantly. Continuously, over and over.
BOB GILGOR:
What were the things that you would fight over?
WALTER DURHAM:
What would trigger little fights? I guess when hot and cold come
together it don't take too much of a thunder to start it. It don't have
to be too much to start a fight. Anything would trigger a fight. You'd
bump into each other in the hallway. Then you had six or seven white
guys walking around and six or seven blacks walking around. Things are
pretty much planned before they were even carried out. You would look
for trouble before trouble even find out. It didn't take much for a
fight to break out. The tension was just there. And I don't think the
school system did enough to calm the tension down. I think once they
opened the school they could have done a little better in race
relationship before they opened the doors.
Page 14
BOB GILGOR:
How do you mean that, Walter?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, like I was saying, they dropped everything that come from Chapel
Hill High School. The school colors, everything like that.
BOB GILGOR:
So the school colors were Chapel Hill High School colors? And the
mascot? But I thought that when they started the school, that the mascot
was the Lincoln High mascot?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. They was the Wildcats. About two to three years later they changed.
BOB GILGOR:
And what about the school colors?
WALTER DURHAM:
Chapel Hill High School.
BOB GILGOR:
And they changed that when changed the mascot?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
What about other things that were at Lincoln that meant a lot to you?
WALTER DURHAM:
They didn't take trophies or nothing out to Chapel Hill High School. As
a matter of fact a lot of trophies that was down to Lincoln High School
still on display was throwed away. People got information about four,
five years ago. Somebody saw them in the trash can and got a lot of them
together and started giving them away to people—championship trophies
just throwed away. So no trophy case out to Chapel Hill High School
baring any trophies or memories from Lincoln High School.
BOB GILGOR:
They obviously meant a lot to the black community, to the black
students, who worked to hard to get them.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. And that's when I started seeing the change in Mr. McDougle.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of change did you see in Mr. McDougle?
WALTER DURHAM:
He became a very distant person. He was more or less hurt because of not
to really do a job. I think he was hired as a token, and he knew that.
So I think they broke his spirit. So I began to feel his pain, and me
and him began to communicate. Like I said I didn't like him at Lincoln
High School. But I didn't know what he was trying to do. He was trying
to mold us instead of being what we thought was a mean man. But I could
see it when we went to Chapel Hill High School. So he went from an enemy
to being a friend.
BOB GILGOR:
You had mentioned that he greeted you at the doors when school opened.
You had mentioned that he would get on the loudspeaker when school was
opening and give messages in the morning. Others
Page 15
told me that he would roam the hallways when classes changed to make
sure there was discipline. Did he do any of that at the new high school?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. You would see him here and there. But he didn't have the same type
of glow that he had at Lincoln High School. I don't think he had the
authority at Chapel Hill High School that he had at Lincoln High School.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have an easy time getting to talk to him at Chapel Hill High
School? Did you go to his office and talk to him?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Why would you go there and talk to him?
WALTER DURHAM:
I could confide in him. I could talk to him. Because, like I said, when
we first went out to Chapel Hill High School, everybody else seemed so
distanced from you and you had a hard time communicating to anybody. I
couldn't communicate to the teachers out there.
With the person that I was, a lot of anger grew up within me also. I
remember one time, my mother gave me and my brother three dollars
apiece. We went down to the five and dime, I don't know if you remember
when the five and dime was down on Main Street or not. And she gave us
three dollars to go down there and buy some sneakers. And it was the
first time that I ever had a piece of money in my hand to go anywhere.
So I had the money very tight in my hand. So when I get to the five and
dime and I get into the shoe section, I took and put my money in my
pocket. And as I was putting my money in my pocket, a policeman reach
and grab me and throws me against the wall and searched me. And I don't
know that he thought that I was going to steal something, I don't know
why he'd done it. But he reached and grabbed me and threw me against the
wall. I was about—I think I was about the third and fourth grade. And it
scared me so bad, I didn't get no shoes or nothing. I ran all the way
home. We were standing down on Merritt Mill Road and I ran all the way
home. If I go into a store today, whatever's in my hand, it stays there.
I don't go to my pockets. If my son's in the store with me, don't even
play like you're going to your pockets. Little things like that. I
remember when we started having marches and things in Chapel Hill. I was
still about in the sixth grade. I had on a freedom button. [unclear] I would just go in there a lot when I'm
Page 16
heading home, and buy a little candy or whatever. And I had the
freedom button on me. And he snatched it off and cursed me out. I ran
home again. You know. Little things growing up like that. Going into the
dairy bar. I sit down one day. I was about—[tape ends].
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
BOB GILGOR:
So you were saying that your brother snatched you up when you sat down
at the dairy bar?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. And the same thing happened across the street from the drug store.
BOB GILGOR:
Colonial Drugs?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. I sit down in there one day. We were coming from First Baptist,
from church, Sunday school. And I didn't know nothing about the sitting
down rules or why we couldn't sit down. So I just sit down—everybody
else what sitting down—so while my brother was ordering the ice cream
and stuff I sit down. Big John, he was about to say something to me, but
before he did my brother snatched me up again. So I pretty much grew up
with a lot of anger.
BOB GILGOR:
Towards segregation and white people?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes, pretty much. Pretty much. Because I saw a lot of things that would
happen. Me and my brother were raking the yard one day. And we raked the
yard all day long, all day long. I was about in the eighth grade. And
the lady promised us a certain amount of money. And then when we
finished working, I was using an old rake, the rake belonged to the
woman, and the rake broke. So at the end of the day, she wouldn't pay me
my money because of the rake. She said I broke the rake. So I had to pay
for the rake. You know. Some things back then that you couldn't take it
home to your parents. Your parents wasn't going to go to your rescue
because they was scared themselves. And I just grew up with all that
that stuff balled up inside of me. So when I get to Chapel Hill High
School all this stuff started coming back again. And you could see it.
You could see the favoritism. People getting dissed because of who they
are or what they're about. It's not because that you met that
requirement but because of who you were. And they didn't try to hide it.
The teachers didn't try to hide it.
BOB GILGOR:
So you saw favoritism toward the white students. Is that fair to say?
Page 17
WALTER DURHAM:
Oh yes. And they didn't try to hide it. You get up there and you got
your hand raised up to answer a question and don't nobody call on you.
That's not a coincidence. That's not a coincidence. You get to the point
where you don't want to ask a question. You don't want to go to the
teacher for anything. Next thing you know you're falling behind in your
grades because the communication is not there. I got kicked out of
school the first year I went to Chapel Hill High School. I got kicked
out in December. I couldn't go back no more the rest of that year.
Strictly because I challenged the system and my spirit was broken so
bad. I got to the point that I got moved. They classified you when you
got there. I was in Class 2 English, you know. My grade was so good that
I got moved to English 1, the smart class. The teacher there, we started
having problems from the first day, from the first day. And everybody
seemed to be having problems with her. But the way that I was—the
feeling that I had inside of me came out in more anger. Other people
could take it, but I wouldn't. I became branded as a troublemaker in the
school system. Then after I had so many problems with so many teachers,
then my grades just went down real bad. And I didn't care. I didn't care
if I stayed in school or got kicked out of school, or whatever.
BOB GILGOR:
And that was your first year at Chapel Hill High? Now what kind of a
student were you when you were at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
Like I said, the little trouble I got in was such a little class clown—.
My grades was pretty good. Especially in math, stuff like that.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you like school when you went to Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I liked school.
BOB GILGOR:
Same as when you went to Northside? You wanted to get there every day?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
And this changed when you went to Chapel Hill High School?
WALTER DURHAM:
And the hate started coming out of me. And it led to a lot of things
later on in life. A lot of things when you're young, I reckon that you
don't understand. And you don't know how to deal with them. The anger's
just coming out of you. You let your anger be known and let it be seen.
That was the only way that I thought that people would recognize you.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there courses that you took where you had black teachers?
WALTER DURHAM:
Not me. I didn't have no black teachers at Chapel Hill High School.
Page 18
BOB GILGOR:
All your teachers were white?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there any white teachers there who didn't see color? Who treated
the black students the same as the white students?
WALTER DURHAM:
I'm not going to say that. Because at this point, I wasn't going to
allow it anyhow. And I guess it was more me seeing white and there was
so much anger bottled up into me. Even leaving Lincoln High School. We
didn't have a choice in the matter. We was asked, and we had to sign a
note saying did you want to go or did you want to stay. The majority
wanted to stay but they didn't—I don't even know why they sent the
question around.
BOB GILGOR:
So you signed something saying that you wanted to stay at Lincoln? And
you think the majority of students wanted to stay at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I know it was.
BOB GILGOR:
Did they tally up the ballots and let you know?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. They let you know that a majority—I don't know exactly what the
ratio was.
BOB GILGOR:
Who did this vote?
WALTER DURHAM:
It came form the school system. A lot of people I talked to don't
remember that.
BOB GILGOR:
When did they do that vote?
WALTER DURHAM:
I think it had to have been the end of the year '66. Because next thing
we know, we got letters in the mail saying that you're going to Chapel
Hill High School.
BOB GILGOR:
When did you find out you were going to Chapel Hill High School?
WALTER DURHAM:
I think it was during that summer.
BOB GILGOR:
So you didn't know until, what, a couple of months before school
started?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
And you got the letter from the school system?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. And they rushed us so fast. When we got out there it was three or
four months before the cafeteria was even ready. So the school wasn't
even completely ready the year that they sent us there.
BOB GILGOR:
Do you know whether the school was going to open as integrated or
whether it was going to open as all-white originally?
Page 19
WALTER DURHAM:
Well like I said there was a few people already going to Chapel Hill
High School. So they had started integrating it then. But little did we
know that they was going to close Lincoln and send everybody—I'm just
going to assume that they did, when the first brick was laid. But we
didn't know.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there other things that occurred, when you went to Chapel Hill High
the first year that you noticed were different from Lincoln High?
WALTER DURHAM:
Remember when I was telling you about you could drink out of the
commode? Stuff like that. The whole system changed. We went from being
scared to drop a piece of trash on the school ground until litter was
everywhere. People would take a whole roll of toilet tissue and put it
in the commode, and do their business on top of that. We could see that
all over the whole school. It was trashy. And I couldn't point a finger
to who was doing it, but I know we left one system for another system.
We left a system that you better not litter to a system that you could
see litter very visible.
BOB GILGOR:
What about the dress code? Was there any difference in the way you could
dress?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much. When we was at Lincoln you couldn't walk around with your
shirttail out. Stuff like that. You would have to be neat. Even though
you didn't have no clothes. There wasn't no whole lot of clothes you
had. But what you did have you had to wear it presentable.
BOB GILGOR:
What about hats in school?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. But when we first got to Chapel Hill High School, you couldn't wear
no hats either.
BOB GILGOR:
What about hair styles? Was there any difference between Chapel Hill
High School and Lincoln? Could the girls wear their hair any way they
wanted?
WALTER DURHAM:
I didn't see any difference.
BOB GILGOR:
And discipline? Was there a difference in the way you were disciplined
at the two schools?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Very much. Very much difference. When you was at Northside, you
would physically get spanked. You didn't have that at Chapel Hill High
School.
BOB GILGOR:
So you could get away with things at Chapel Hill High that you couldn't
get away with at Lincoln? Is that fair to say?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Do you think any of the black students intimidated the white
teachers?
Page 20
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much. I don't know was they intimidating them. They was always
good to [unclear]]. I said something to a teacher one day, we had a few words. And
I was letting him know that that wasn't going to happen, that this right
here would happen. The first thing out of his mouth, "Is this a
threat.?" I said, "Well you take it the way you want to take it. It's
not a threat. I wasn't threatening you. I was telling you that this
right here would happen." So I know what he wanted me—he wanted me to
say that it was a threat so that he'd call security or the police. So
the telephone number was so quick and the police was so geared to come
by there at any time that, the littlest thing that you done you was
always in the office for.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there any fights between teachers and students?
WALTER DURHAM:
None as I know of.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there smoking in the school yard or in the school?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. It wasn't permitted, but it was going on.
BOB GILGOR:
So you weren't really allowed to smoke at Chapel Hill High even in the
yard, but the kids did smoke?
WALTER DURHAM:
Oh yeah.
BOB GILGOR:
What about alcohol? Was there alcohol in the school yard?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much.
BOB GILGOR:
Could you get away with this at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I'm not saying that you couldn't. I'm saying that if you smoked a
cigarette it was way off the school grounds. I never known anyone to
smoke a cigarette on the school grounds at Lincoln High School. Which
I'm not saying they didn't do it, but I didn't see any. At Chapel Hill
High School, even though you're not supposed to do it, you could see it
a little bit anywhere.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you see any alcohol at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I didn't see it but I remember the class of '65 that one guy really fell
out. It was during graduation. They was practicing graduating and he was
graduating class one and he fell out because of alcohol [laughs]. I
didn't experience going to prom at Lincoln High School but I heard guys
would pretty much have alcohol in the car. But just during school days,
course of the day, no. But at Chapel Hill High School, yes.
Page 21
BOB GILGOR:
Did you go to Chapel Hill High almost with anger within you, or a chip
on your shoulder, upset that you weren't still at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I didn't go there with a chip on my shoulder. Didn't get long for it to
get up there. Because I didn't know what it was going to be like. Once
in got there, like I said, and started experiencing things I started
experiencing, and all these little things that happened to me in the
course of my life just started coming back to me. So it started, it just
put a chip on my shoulder.
BOB GILGOR:
I understand that you were thrown out of school in December? And when
did you come back to school?
WALTER DURHAM:
The next year. I couldn't come back no more that year.
BOB GILGOR:
So you came back in—?
WALTER DURHAM:
'68. Well, '67.
BOB GILGOR:
So you were out, what, a month or six months?
WALTER DURHAM:
Um, five months.
BOB GILGOR:
Five months. I need to go back over the dates again. The school started
in—?
WALTER DURHAM:
'66.
BOB GILGOR:
And I understand that there was a riot at the school, or an uprising, or
a protest, whatever you want to call it in the second year that the
school was open?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much, yeah.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you describe what happened during that protest? Why it occurred? You
know what? I have to leave. Unfortunately. But I'm very interested in
hearing about this. I'm wondering if we can continue this interview
another time.
WALTER DURHAM:
What about Monday?
BOB GILGOR:
Monday? Let me look at my calendar [tape ends] INTERVIEW CONTINUES
BOB GILGOR:
This is January 26th in the year 2001 and this is Bob Gilgor
interviewing Walter Durham again at Northside.
Page 22
Good
morning, Walter.
WALTER DURHAM:
Good morning.
BOB GILGOR:
I want to focus this morning on a couple of areas. The first that I want
to ask you is, all of your memories about Lincoln High School—anything
you can remember about the traditions there, what stands out in your
mind?
WALTER DURHAM:
What really stands out in my mind is—and I have to look at that first,
and then I had to look at the other things second before I could realize
what was going on there—one thing that really stands out in my mind is
the discipline that Lincoln had. Most people that you knew there was
people that you grew up with and that you communicate with all the time.
And it wasn't a burden. When you go in your own house you know everybody
there. And it wasn't so many people that you only know fifteen or twenty
in the whole school. That you can call everybody in the school by name.
And I thought that was neat. Even knew every teacher, versus just
knowing the teachers that teach you. You knew all teachers, even though
they teach you or not, you knew them all. Basically just the
communication that I liked. The family-like atmosphere.
BOB GILGOR:
Were the teachers there for a long time, or did the teaching staff turn
over a lot?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well the three years that I was there probably about one or two came in.
But pretty much—I don't know how long they was there before I got
there—but I heard my brother talking about, just the same people was
there for years. It may be one or two would change every year, but it
was pretty much the same people.
BOB GILGOR:
What time did school start, and what time did it end?
WALTER DURHAM:
If my memory serves me right, I think the school let in at 8:15, between
8:15 and 8:30, and I want to say it let out about 3:15 to 3:30.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there any ritual about going into the school?
WALTER DURHAM:
Repeat that again.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there any ritual? I mean did you line up in the yard and march in or
did you just sort of walk in? Did anyone see you when you came in? Was
there a safety patrol there to organize you? Do you remember anything
special about that?
Page 23
WALTER DURHAM:
It was pretty much—it was always a place that people would go before
school was let in. Just layed around a little store that you drank
sodas, whatever. People would meet there early, sometimes as early as
seven o'clock. It was a very short distance to school. You wouldn't
march in school. You would just pretty much be in school before the bell
ring. No one would be on the outside. It was pretty much a disciplined
school. You either got to school on time or else you wouldn't even come.
BOB GILGOR:
What if you got there late? Was there anyone there to greet you?
WALTER DURHAM:
Pretty much. Mr. McDougle was usually there to direct you or wanted to
know why you were late. Then you had to have a good excuse.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he ever send late students home?
WALTER DURHAM:
I have heard a student saying that he sent them home. I heard one say
that he made a comment that, "You're too late for today and too early
for tomorrow."
BOB GILGOR:
I heard that before from several people.
WALTER DURHAM:
I never actually really heard him, but I heard enough people say that he
did say that.
BOB GILGOR:
What was the name of the store—you said a soda shop, a soda store?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. We called in Miss Kelly's Store.
BOB GILGOR:
Miss Kelly's Store? What did you do in there before school?
WALTER DURHAM:
It was just a little meeting place. She just had a large room there. It
was just a place you could go and communicate. A little place she had
that after school you could go and dance. But no alcohol or nothing like
that involved. Just was a place of communication.
BOB GILGOR:
What was it like walking in the hallways in between classes?
WALTER DURHAM:
We had what we called hall monitors, safety patrols. You would have a
badge. You would have a little shoulder strap thing that came across
your shoulder and around your waist. Once you got to a certain rank you
got a badge. If you went down the hall, each side you would have to
march on the right hand side. If I was going down the hall I would have
to stay on the right side. So there was no jumping from side to side.
And the patrol [unclear] is there to make sure that you walk the right direction.
BOB GILGOR:
Was it real noisy between classes?
Page 24
WALTER DURHAM:
No. There was a little communication. If you would have to say the way
the noise is now when classes is changing. If you would have to say 100
percent volume now then you would have to say about 25 percent of the
volume then.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have lockers in the school where you kept books or clothes?
WALTER DURHAM:
No lockers.
BOB GILGOR:
What did you do with your clothes when you came to school?
WALTER DURHAM:
You either kept them with you or you had a certain place where you would
stash them, but there was nowhere really just putting your stuff down
anywhere.
BOB GILGOR:
So in the wintertime when you came in with a coat, you just sort of
carried it with you the whole day?
WALTER DURHAM:
Just carried it with you.
BOB GILGOR:
What about assembly? Did you have assembly where the whole school met
anytime?
WALTER DURHAM:
Quite often, quite often. And if my memory serves me right we had
assembly about once a week.
BOB GILGOR:
What sort of things took place at the assembly?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, if you got into trouble during that week, you may be exposed to
the whole school.
BOB GILGOR:
At the assembly?
WALTER DURHAM:
At the assembly. [unclear] But most of the time it was just to go over some things that had
happened during the course of the week. Most of the time it wasn't
anything bad. Just a moment of time just to come together.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have prayer?
WALTER DURHAM:
No we didn't have prayer.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you sing during assembly?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't think we did.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there performances, or was it just information?
WALTER DURHAM:
Information, mostly.
BOB GILGOR:
How about during lunch and during recess? Were there games or things
that people did that you could remember?
Page 25
WALTER DURHAM:
We had a lot of intramural games. Whatever was in season. Classes versus
classes. Softball, basketball. Played a lot of kickball, baseball,
football during lunch hours. You went to cafeteria according to your
class. It wasn't that everybody went to the cafeteria at one time. You
went by your class. After then you could pretty much break up into what
you wanted to do according to how much time you had left.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you pay for your lunches?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
What happened if you didn't have money with you?
WALTER DURHAM:
You could always get your lunch and bring your money later. I never
found that out as being a problem, that people would go without food.
BOB GILGOR:
Could you work off that lunch? Could you do some work in the cafeteria
to work off the cost of the lunch?
WALTER DURHAM:
I couldn't tell you. I don't know, really.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you ever see teachers giving money to children to pay for their
lunch?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
I understand that there was a cloakroom in the back of the class—I don't
remember whether it was at Northside or whether it was at Lincoln—that
the teachers would notice students who had holes in their shoes or poor
clothing. There was a box, a cardboard box with shoes and clothing and
sometimes they would take the students back and give them another pair
of shoes or clothing. Do you remember anything like this at Northside or
Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't remember that part. But I would have to say that if it was at
one school most likely it was at this one.
BOB GILGOR:
At Northside. Because you didn't have cloakrooms at Lincoln?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you tell me about the prom? Did you ever go to a prom?
WALTER DURHAM:
I went to a prom at Lincoln but I was just a chaperone. In the lower
grades you can go to Spring Ball but you're not allowed to go to the
prom. We had Spring Ball for the lower classes.
BOB GILGOR:
Tell me about that. What was the Spring Ball like?
Page 26
WALTER DURHAM:
Well it probably wasn't as of a higher standing as the prom was, but you
went with your suits on, you dance, communicate. I guess we had someone
playing music. It was the form of a prom but it was just a different
level.
BOB GILGOR:
Who played the music?
WALTER DURHAM:
I'm thinking that it was—it wasn't a band.
BOB GILGOR:
Records?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
And how long did it last?
WALTER DURHAM:
I want to say that the Spring Ball lasted until about eleven o'clock.
The prom lasted twelve.
BOB GILGOR:
So when you went to the prom you didn't go with a date? You were a
chaperone?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. I was more or less a servant. Fortunate enough I had a lot of
kinpeople that was a year ahead of me. They were the ones who picked who
would be the servant.
BOB GILGOR:
So was this part of the tenth-grade experience? The tenth graders did
the serving?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you remember whether parents came to the prom?
WALTER DURHAM:
There was a few. There wasn't many. There was a few. And it was just an
experience that you would never forget because you'd never seen anything
like that.
BOB GILGOR:
Was it formal?
WALTER DURHAM:
Formal, yes.
BOB GILGOR:
So the students who went wore tuxes?
WALTER DURHAM:
Wore a tux.
BOB GILGOR:
Where did you hold it?
WALTER DURHAM:
Right here. It was in the cafeteria.
BOB GILGOR:
The prom was in the cafeteria, not the gym?
WALTER DURHAM:
Excuse me. It was the gym. It was in the gym. And then again I still
want to think it was the cafeteria.
BOB GILGOR:
Did they decorate it?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
Page 27
BOB GILGOR:
Did they have a big ball in the center with lights on it?
WALTER DURHAM:
I can't remember that part. I don't think they did. I think I might
remember that if they did.
BOB GILGOR:
You know, it may have been done differently at different years. It's
possible they could have had it in the cafeteria one year.
WALTER DURHAM:
If my memory keeps serving me—. I know when we had Spring Ball it was in
the gym. The cafeteria wasn't big enough.
BOB GILGOR:
Did they have decorations?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of decorations did they have?
WALTER DURHAM:
I can't remember.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you recall the sports events? The football games first, whether
there were any traditions that took place before, during, after the
games?
WALTER DURHAM:
One thing that I remember: we always fed the visiting team after the
game.
BOB GILGOR:
After the game?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. They were very well fed before we sent them down the road. Another
thing that I remember: when we came off the Trailway—we had a big
Trailway bus with a big tiger on the bus—probably was one of a kind.
Mister R. D. Smith, do you know him? He drove the bus. And it was a big
Trailway, nice bus. And it would carry the football team wherever they
went. And when they come off the bus—one tradition that I guess was
followed down, I don't know who started it—but your shoes always had to
be shining, and you had to have new shoestrings every week.
BOB GILGOR:
Your football shoes?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. The captain of the football team always made sure that you were
presentable, number one, that you was clean! Then they would run off the
bus. They would take a full lap around the field. And then they would
meet on the fifty-yard line. We would always sing a song, "Born on the
Mountaintop, Tennessee." And it was a way that they would do it , sing
it and then hit your pads, then you go down and touch your toes, then
come back and hit your pads again, and come up and—everybody would be
all in sync, song sounding good. And the other team's over there looking
and started having fear in other teams before. It was always a show.
Lincoln always took a show everywhere they went.
Page 28
And—I don't know if you're familiar with Hillside band—they always be in
the band, always be in the Christmas Parade, and always bring excitement
to the Christmas Parade. But the band director at Hillside now was at
Lincoln. So what he got going on at Hillside, that's the way Lincoln
used to be. Lincoln would always have the tradition of having the best
band around. I guess you have to take that back to the director because
that's the way he trained them here. And the band director, always had
to have to a little show with him, too, so it was always—.
BOB GILGOR:
Now you got a baton in your hand [unclear] so did he lead the band out there? Was he high stepping?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. High stepping and doing some of everything. You might see him up in
the bleachers, anywhere, dancing and—. He was just a show that people
would just look at him. He would put on a half-time show, a
before-the-game show. And so when you went to a Lincoln High School
football game, you couldn't get into the stadium. It would be just
standing room only, white and black. White and black. It just mean a
white came out and see them, then did black. We used to leave a football
game—it was out in Carrboro at this particular time, the stadium was
there—and it would be a line of people a mile long coming back into
Chapel Hill that just left the football game. People lived for Friday
nights to get to a football game.
BOB GILGOR:
Sounds like it was a big show.
WALTER DURHAM:
You would have had to been there—I'm trying to tell you the best way I
can—but you would have had to been there to enjoy the excitement. Like I
told you last week, one year we went un-scored-on. We were beating
people 108 to 0, 88 to 0. So it was a show, plus you saw the football
game, and you just didn't get that out of that head. Cheerleaders, you
couldn't get that out of your head, because they had a show. And it was
a full-time show the whole time that you were there.
BOB GILGOR:
Sounds very joyful.
WALTER DURHAM:
Very, very. I tell you, kids today that didn't have an opportunity to
see one of those shows. You can't tell them what they miss because
sometimes you don't miss what you've never seen but—those were joyful
times. Joyful times.
But you go to a football game now—and I saw more come out this year than
I seen in a long time—but the stadium out in Chapel Hill High couldn't
hold the people that—for sitting down.
Page 29
BOB GILGOR:
You had more people at the Lincoln High games than you have now at
Chapel Hill High games?
WALTER DURHAM:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I mean, people from Hillsborough, Pittsborogh, Durham.
[unclear] people just come to the game. People you never seen before.
Bleachers be rocking. I'm talking about, you go to a game now it seem
like a [unclear]. I mean, you know, it would be rocking. It might be cold and you
might see five or six trash cans or barrels of fire going. It was just a
time to remember.
BOB GILGOR:
Did the students who played football and would come in with these shiny
shoes and new laces on their shoes—would they run around the field and
do the same meeting at mid-field singing "Born on Mountaintop,
Tennessee" at home games as well as the away games?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
So that was the tradition? That was in your face kind of psychology?
WALTER DURHAM:
I didn't look at it as being that, but I guess you could very well say
it was that. [unclear]
BOB GILGOR:
Were there any other traditions after the game? Did they sing a school
song, did they go in front of the fans who had supported them? Did the
team do anything special after one of the 66 or 88 to 0 games?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well the football coach sort of didn't allow it. It was more or less
business once you got on the football field. If you ran a 100-yard
touchdown, you couldn't even come back to the sideline rejoicing. He
would simply tell you you didn't do no more than you supposed to have
done.
BOB GILGOR:
So there was none of this dancing in the end zone, or spiking the ball,
or jumping around?
WALTER DURHAM:
The show starts before the game. Then, during the game, the band, the
cheerleaders, and everybody else, they did the show from then on. The
football team was strictly business.
BOB GILGOR:
Now, you had a coach, Coach Peerman. Did he have assistant coaches?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
He just coached by himself? One man?
WALTER DURHAM:
One man.
BOB GILGOR:
Offense, defense?
WALTER DURHAM:
Offense, defense.
BOB GILGOR:
Kicking?
Page 30
WALTER DURHAM:
Everything. And I put that on a—after I studied it down through the
years—you do this during training, in the summer, before football season
starts. So everybody else pretty much will know their role. Everybody
know who's going to start. When he say the kicking team go in, you would
know who went in. It's not a good stuff how the twelve men end up on the
field. If twelve men end up on the field, somebody been knowing what
they was supposed to be doing. So it was pretty much well, that you knew
what you were supposed to do.
BOB GILGOR:
It sounds like the same kind of discipline that existed at the school in
general, maybe even more?
WALTER DURHAM:
He was one man I feared. I didn't mess with him.
BOB GILGOR:
Was he a big man?
WALTER DURHAM:
Big man. He weighed about 260 pounds. Without an once of fat. And he had
a bass in his voice. When he tell you to move, you move. He tell you to
go to class, you go to class. He tell you to sit down, you sit down. But
he was a very mild man. But he was a no-nonsense man. He got me one
time. [unclear] he had made. Me and another friend we was playing volleyball
during gym. And at the end of the session, you stopped playing and go to
the dressing room and get dressed and you had about five minutes left to
go before the bell ring. So we were waiting on the bleachers, waiting
for the bell to ring and another friend went out on the gym floor
playing volleyball with a piece of paper. And we knew we weren't
supposed to be out there with our shoes on. You didn't walk on his floor
with your shoes on. And he walked out of his office and saw us. So there
was a stage in the gym. We had to go and stand up on stage. And we had
to go and bend down and grab our ankles. He had this palette. And he hit
us three times apiece. But he was a big man. He could [unclear].
BOB GILGOR:
[Laughter] You remembered that, hunh?
WALTER DURHAM:
Oh, boy, do I remember it. I'm probably still stinging from that! From
then on, I never crossed him any more. I didn't fear him. I respected
him.
BOB GILGOR:
After the football game were there parties or other things that people
did that you can remember?
Page 31
WALTER DURHAM:
They had a little place up here on [pause]. You know where Chapel Hill
newspaper's at? Well that little street, when the right light? Take that
red light, take a right, that little section of the block right there?
There was a grill there.
BOB GILGOR:
Is that Merritt Mill Road over there?
WALTER DURHAM:
Merritt Mill Road is the other street. This is before you get to Merritt
Mill Road. That's Graham Street, I think. Pretty much about everybody
would pretty much leave there, come up there to get a chicken sandwich,
whatever. Every now and then there would be a dance going on down at the
community center. It wasn't always activities going on after that. But
people who didn't go home would come up there and just stand around and
talk for a while. That would be pretty much [unclear].
BOB GILGOR:
Are there any other memories you have of Lincoln High School that you
haven't talked about?
WALTER DURHAM:
I would say the food. The food. The food was home-cooked food. You ate
food at the cafeteria the way you ate at home. It was just Southern
cooking. Good food.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of things would you eat there, Walter?
WALTER DURHAM:
You know, fried chicken. Greens, home cooked. Potatoes. It wasn't a
whole lot of—I'm talking about home-made yeast rolls and – [tape
ends].
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
BOB GILGOR:
Did you want to say anything more about the cooking at Lincoln High
School?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. It was just good home cooking.
BOB GILGOR:
We haven't talked much about your experience at Chapel Hill High School,
the new Chapel Hill High School that was integrated. I wanted to ask you
what the issues were that you think led up to the protest or riot that
occurred there in 1969.
WALTER DURHAM:
'68.
BOB GILGOR:
'68?
Page 32
WALTER DURHAM:
I guess it was really just tension. There was just a lot of tension.
Like I said no one there tried to bridge that gap or tried to cut that
tension off. To me it was pretty much on your own. And they had certain
teachers there. I would want to say that today you had certain people
there in place that was in place to pretty much keep you in place.
Certain black teachers that they hired. I'm not going to say that they
hired then especially for that. But anything that would happen, that
another black would get out of line, they would send these black
teachers to sort of like steer them back into line—not to sympathize
with them, but to steer them back into line.
BOB GILGOR:
So they didn't listen to the things that were bothering the students? Is
that what you're saying? Neither the white teachers nor the black
teachers?
WALTER DURHAM:
Right. Who I really could confide in, and who helped me to cope with
some of the problems that I had—Mrs. Peerman was one, and Mr. McDougle
was the other one. Those are the two I could really go and take to. And
I always found Mrs. Peerman to be a jewel because it seemed like she
would always give you a word of confidence—not only confidence in moving
to the next level, but a word of comfort in your problems. So I would go
talk to her a lot.
BOB GILGOR:
What are the kinds of things that you would talk to her about?
WALTER DURHAM:
She was a counselor, so a lot of times it would be just personal stuff.
A lot of times just something to talk about. She always put a smile on
her face, and that's what I needed.
BOB GILGOR:
When you say that tension was building up at school, can you remember
what were the causes of the tension? You mentioned one of them, that
people weren't listening. What were the things that they weren't
listening to?
WALTER DURHAM:
I was thinking of segregation. Segregation is all right. But there's
still segregation, people still have a tendency to operate within their
own room. And segregation don't have to be segregation between black and
white. You got skinheads and you got certain groups that segregate
themselves from other groups. But when you build a wall there, between
that segregation. When that wall is built there, and then you cannot
communicate because there's a wall built there, and you see one getting
special treatments over the other one. I remember this one special time.
Governor Wallace spoke over there in Durham. And they was letting people
go to the speech. And there was a lot of students coming getting their
dismissal slips signed.
Page 33
Well, for some reason, the
assistant principal, whoever it was, wouldn't sign a black dismissal
slip. So you had several of them standing there, and they were signing
every white that came there. So then we had to go in to talk to Mr.
McDougle [phone rings; tape stops].
BOB GILGOR:
Let's go back to this George Wallace talk in Durham. I assume that at
this time George Wallace was still a racist and a segregationist, is
that right?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Why it was so important for everybody to go over there, I don't
know. But this was just a big event. Everybody was getting out of school
to go over to Durham. Once we got over there, there was a lot of tension
going on. And then, you know, every time that you would look at TV you
would see Alabama, whatever, them sicking dogs on people, sending water
hoses, stuff like that. Even though that you wasn't a part of it, still
it was just tension, tension.
BOB GILGOR:
So you felt what was going on in the rest of the country?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes, very much.
BOB GILGOR:
Did your friends feel the same thing you felt?
WALTER DURHAM:
Several of them. Several of them. If they did it wasn't a lot shown.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you talk about what was going on in the country, the problems that
were being faced in the South, among your friends?
WALTER DURHAM:
It's just wasn't a topic of conversation. It wasn't something that we
sat around and talked about all the time or something like that. Maybe
if we were just fortunate enough to be sitting down together someone
would discuss it. But it just wasn't a topic of conversation.
BOB GILGOR:
Mainly, I hear you saying that the tension was because of this wall that
existed. When you say wall are you saying that the whites and the blacks
just didn't talk to each other?
WALTER DURHAM:
Right. It was just like oil and water. And everybody just seems to—went
their separate ways. Then, next thing you know, you're walking down the
hall, you see a fight, something like that. Whites came with their
prejudice ways, and blacks would be responding to it. You had a lot of
whites that I guess was raised up in their house to be like that and
they didn't see us as being human. So those were the things that you
have to deal with? "Why are they out here? Why are they in our school?
Who allowed them to come to this school? This is our school." So we was
invading their privacy.
Page 34
BOB GILGOR:
Did you feel that, or did you hear that?
WALTER DURHAM:
I felt it. And sometimes you would hear it.
BOB GILGOR:
So they would actually ask you, "Why are you here?"
WALTER DURHAM:
I never had one ask me that. I never heard one ask anybody else that,
just that blunt. I heard them say, "Go back down the lake." You had some
that was big and bold enough to do that. And say that. And probably
would have fought you too.
BOB GILGOR:
Were they still calling names and using racial epithets that were
offensive to black students?
WALTER DURHAM:
We had, the first year that we came here, my first cousin was
quarterback down in Lincoln. They didn't have anybody at Chapel Hill
High School that they knew that was going to be able to move him out of
that position. They went and tried to get somebody from out of state to
come here. They intentionally done that.
BOB GILGOR:
So they wouldn't have a black quarterback?
WALTER DURHAM:
So they wouldn't have a black quarterback. But it didn't work. Because
the guy that they brought here couldn't move. He went somewhere in
Cincinnati and quarterbacked. He was a pretty good quarterback. It
wasn't the right time to have a black quarterback.
BOB GILGOR:
So he didn't start?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
He did start.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. So what they tried, it didn't work for them.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you see that in other areas as well, besides football, where there
were black leaders or black athletes who weren't allowed to show their
excellence?
WALTER DURHAM:
They were their first year and it pretty much dropped off since then. I
went to a meeting last night and some parents were concerned that blacks
were not playing on different school teams. Not sports, nothing like
that, but student government bodies and all of that. And it's pretty
much were in place who they going to get. And I went to a meeting
before, about the first couple of weeks of school, and the people say
things like, "Who's on the PTA now." People on the PTA now, the head of
the PTA or whatever, appointing other people to be on there. These are
parents appointing other people. You see what I mean? So you're not
getting there by votes.
Page 35
BOB GILGOR:
You're getting there by appointments.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Who they know. They're picking people to take their place. It was
strange to hear what this woman said last night. And this was the same
problem that we saw in '68. And here it is in '91 now, and this problem
still exists. Trying to remember that position that they just hired at
Chapel Hill High School, trying to bridge the relation gap between black
and white. That's something that should have been in place many years
ago. You have a problem that's been existing now over thirty-some years.
Now you want to try to correct that. It ain't never too late, but it's a
lot late for a lot of people. I don't care what you do or what you say,
as you say you was very fortunate when you was coming up. So you don't
remember going to the bathroom out in the outhouse. You can sympathize
with me. But you never experienced that so you really can't put your
hands on it. Regardless of what any whites say, they can sympathize with
me as much as they want to, but without you coming to the mainstream of
things, you could never write this story. You could never write this
story, go to some whites and ask them how did blacks feel back then.
They could tell you what they think they feel, but they can't tell you
how they feel.
BOB GILGOR:
You'd have to be there, you'd have to be that person.
WALTER DURHAM:
That's right. That's right. And to bridge that gap, you can't bridge
that gap between race with two white [unclear]. There's got to be a black involved in there so they can bring
their concerns to the front.
BOB GILGOR:
When you talked about the schoolboard appointing new people to the
schoolboard, I want to be a little more specific and make sure I
understand you correctly. Are you saying that there are white leaders in
the schoolboard who are appointing more white leaders so there's not
enough black representation on the schoolboard?
WALTER DURHAM:
Not he schoolboard .The schoolboard is being voted upon. The PTA.
BOB GILGOR:
I'm sorry. Let me rephrase it. Are you saying that the PTA
leadership—which is, I'm assuming, white—that they're appointing more
whites and they're not appointing blacks or not enough blacks so there's
not fair representation in the PTA? Is that what you were saying? I
don't want to put words in your mouth.
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Right.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there one single spark that set off the protest that occurred in
1968, that you can remember?
Page 36
WALTER DURHAM:
If I would have to say one, I would think that, although all the tension
was building up and it was just waiting for one moment to explode, I
believe it's when Martin Luther Kind got killed. That was just, boom! It
just happened.
BOB GILGOR:
How long after his death did the protest occur in school?
WALTER DURHAM:
I want to say it was at the same time.
BOB GILGOR:
It was in the spring of the year?
WALTER DURHAM:
I would say so.
BOB GILGOR:
There was an issue with school monitors. Do you remember any of
that?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
Was there planning that you can recall for the protest?
WALTER DURHAM:
No. It wasn't sit down and organized. It was just one or two started
doing things, then it was just more of a separate thing. Everyone pretty
much went off on their own—a group of people here, a group of people
there. People was pretty much doing what they wanted to do. There's
probably a lot of things that happened , that I probably don't even know
today who done them and who was involved in it. Because it was pretty
much where people was going on their own doing a lot of things.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you remember the things that occurred that you were involved in,
that made people call it a protest or a riot?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, me and a few more guys we took some chains and locked up the
school. We locked up the whole school. And I guess we probably beat a
few people down. Wouldn't go to classes and stuff like that. Once things
got started and it was a lot of people involved, that's when the main
group of teachers that would be involved in not hurting people but
making people go back to class. They pretty much got things back in
line.
BOB GILGOR:
The black teachers?
WALTER DURHAM:
I guess I was the one that wouldn't do what they say do, and then I had
the police called on me by these teachers. So I pretty much got back in
line after then.
BOB GILGOR:
Did the police arrest you?
WALTER DURHAM:
No they didn't.
BOB GILGOR:
Didn't pat you?
Page 37
WALTER DURHAM:
No. We left. And then I guess that's pretty much what we wanted to
happen. As long as I got out of the hallways, stuff like that.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you break any windows, or did you see any windows get broken?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't think any windows was broken.
BOB GILGOR:
How about property destroyed?
WALTER DURHAM:
I don't think a whole lot of property was destroyed.
BOB GILGOR:
How long was the school locked up?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well for about an hour or so. Couldn't nobody get in and couldn't nobody
get out.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you see fear or panic among the students when they knew that they
were locked in?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
Is that something that you were aiming to produce?
WALTER DURHAM:
Like I said it wasn't a strategy, it wasn't a plan. It was just saying,
"Let's do this." And we felt like if we could do this, that we could put
fear in people. But I think a lot of blacks got mad at us for doing that
because they was locked up in there too.
BOB GILGOR:
So it wasn't every black in the school cheering you on?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well they was cheering us on until they got locked in. And when they
couldn't get out to be with us or whatever—if we let them out then the
whole school would have been out—I guess after then they sort of grew
mad at us for that particular moment.
BOB GILGOR:
When you unlocked the, unchained the doors, unlocked the school, was
there something that made you do that?
WALTER DURHAM:
Unlocked? Nobody made us do that.
BOB GILGOR:
Why did you unlock it?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well there were a lot of people coming on campus. A lot of students
started calling their parents and stuff like that. So we thought it was
about time for us to unlock the doors.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you march on campus? How did you disperse?
WALTER DURHAM:
This was just a bunch of unruly teenagers with no direction. We didn't
march off campus but I guess that's the one thing that didn't cause us
to get what we were after because there really wasn't no structure in
it. It really wasn't organized. People were doing things and they might
last for an hour or two.
Page 38
In a week or two, a couple
of people would be doings things but pretty much as a whole there wasn't
anybody doing anything. So it was pretty much well that we had this back
in order. So until I left school—I left school in '69—there was a lot of
things didn't change but I had left school.
BOB GILGOR:
So you didn't see many changes after the protest?
WALTER DURHAM:
Right.
BOB GILGOR:
You say you didn't get what you were after. Take it back: what were you
after?
WALTER DURHAM:
Well one of the things that we said was going back to Lincoln. Another
one that we thought that we were after was to tear the walls down: let
us be a part of, let us belong to this school, let us be a part owner of
this school, that we can come to school every day and enjoy school like
everybody else did. And feel free to do that. Just didn't feel free as a
whole that we could do that.
BOB GILGOR:
What was it about Lincoln High School that you wanted to go back to?
What was at Lincoln that you didn't have at Chapel Hill High School?
WALTER DURHAM:
That family atmosphere. Always feel that once that you got people on
your side you can always divide and conquer. And the same people that I
knew down in Lincoln, they was in separate groups. If I get this group
over here, and I said "If I had this group of people, they would be
happy. But yet still I don't have to satisfy other people, as long as we
can keep a few happy." I still see that now. That a few are being made
happy. And so if you would get somebody to speak out for you just like
they had a few black teachers that would speak out for them and they
kept the other ones in control.
BOB GILGOR:
When the riot occurred, were the school colors and the school mascot
still the mascot of the old Chapel Hill High School on Franklin Street,
the white school?
WALTER DURHAM:
Everything was the same. When they left Chapel Hill High School, they
brought everything that originated in Chapel Hill High School. We went
and joined in with Central High in Hillsborough a few times. We went in
and joined in their cause. I saw them as being more organized than
Chapel Hill. I see them operating all the campus in a large group of
people trying to organize. And that was one thing that didn't happen in
Chapel Hill. We didn't sit down and organize. We didn't see which
direction we wanted to go in. We didn't see a list of demands. We might
have a list of demands but this list of demands might come from two or
three people instead of a group of people.
Page 39
BOB GILGOR:
You did have a group, a small group, those who talked to May Marshbanks,
the principal, right before the riots [unclear]. Do you remember any of that?
WALTER DURHAM:
That's what I was saying. You had a lot of people, a lot of different
groups, going off. And for some apparent reason I don't remember that. I
heard somebody say that, but I don't remember that.
BOB GILGOR:
Are there other things that you remember about those events, before or
after?
WALTER DURHAM:
None that I can call. Mostly events that like I said earlier is [unclear]. Nothing led on to anything major. When we was in school, you
couldn't go off campus.
BOB GILGOR:
At Lincoln.
WALTER DURHAM:
At Chapel Hill High School. You weren't supposed to. That was something
we done very [unclear]. And I was thinking back today, why they allowed us to do that,
whey there was any particular reason why they let us do that. They just
didn't want to try to bring us under control, or what.
BOB GILGOR:
Are there other things that you wanted to remember—oh, I wanted to ask
you, did you go to graduation?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes.
BOB GILGOR:
What was graduation like? Did you feel that there was still tension at
graduation, or that things eased off at all?
WALTER DURHAM:
Graduation for me was a moment of getting out of Chapel Hill High
School. So I didn't see any change that night except walking across the
stage and getting my diploma and getting out of there.
BOB GILGOR:
Sort of a relief.
WALTER DURHAM:
Sort of a relief. It was a big relief to me. I don't know. I was
free.
BOB GILGOR:
What was graduation like at Lincoln High School. Did you ever go to
any?
WALTER DURHAM:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
I hear in all of this—maybe this is just my interpretation—you came from
a school where there was a family atmosphere, where there was very
strong discipline, where life was organized. And you went to a school
where there was no family feeling, where you didn't feel welcome, and in
your eyes was disorganized?
WALTER DURHAM:
Yes. Pretty much.
BOB GILGOR:
Sort of shocking.
Page 40
WALTER DURHAM:
Well, it was shocking then. But I still see the same structure. So
nothing surprised me, that happened. It don't surprise me now that it
did happen. Because I can see certain family structures now. And I
understand why it was in school.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you explain that a little further? I don't understand you.
WALTER DURHAM:
I can see very loose some of the principles that a lot of households
grow up with. I don't see a lot of structures in the homes. I can see a
lot of the things that a lot of people stand out against or a lot of
people stand out for, that is morally wrong. I can see the school system
filling up because the child have their right in their home. I don't
feel like a child should have their rights in their home. They don't
have no rights. When my child get old enough to pay his bills, when my
child get old enough to be responsible for himself. A thirteen,
twelve-year-old child don't have no rights in my home. He don't have no
decision on how to run my household. He's not of age yet. He never went
through nothing yet. But I see three or four years old on these talk
shows and their parents say they can't do nothing with him. If you can't
do nothing with a three or four year-old, then when he get ten, you
might as well leave the house to him and go head on back to [unclear]. When they come up like that, they when they get up to some age,
they don't have no structure. A lot of structure that was at Lincoln
High School, it wasn't main reason because of the teachers. A lot of it
left home with them. If a child ain't raised at home, I don't care, you
can't raise him outside the home. You, me, the parent or nobody else
can't raise that child outside the home. It starts within the home. So a
lot of things that happened then and that happened now, they didn't get
it straight at home and they can't get it straight now. And now those
same principles—the whippings that we used to get when we was young,
coming up—you get a whipping for everything that you do, not every
little thing, you didn't get killed, but you got punished for it—gave
you something to think about. Gave you something to say, "Don't do that
no more." But my mother now tell me I shouldn't spank my child. The same
woman that—
BOB GILGOR:
Spanked you.
WALTER DURHAM:
Spanked me. Principles are changing. She done started accepting other
people's ideas. The same was that she kept me in line is wrong now. So
that's the way I see it I the school system.
BOB GILGOR:
The problem begins at home.
WALTER DURHAM:
The problem begins at home. You leave home, you come to a school system
that don't have no structure, that don't have any strong rules.
Page 41
Don't have a dress code no more: kids walking
around with their pants—. When we was in school you couldn't wear a hat
to school. You can wear anything now. Girls wearing dresses, they bend
over, you can see everything they got on. Boys wearing pants, you can
see their underwear and all of them. When we was coming up you had to
wear your shirttails in. Ain't that no more. There's no more structure.
And if it's that bad now, what's it going to be like in the next ten
years? Somebody's going to get it back in line, somebody with some type
of principle or some moral right. I feel that when you start having
certain rights, everybody have their own rights, and that's the problem
right now. The law says that you cannot go in your child's room unless
you got permission. Your child can be back in his room with I don't know
how much dope or anything else in his room but you can't go in his room
unless you got his permission. But he can take you to jail for going
into his room without permission. The house that you bought? He got his
rights, animals got their rights. We live in a society that too many
people have their own rights. But it wasn't designed like that. God put
rules and regulations on this earth. The guy that went downtown and shot
all those people downtown, now he want to say that he wasn't represented
right, now he wants to sue his lawyer—not his lawyer, his doctor, said
he didn't get the proper medication. So we are not held accountable for
what we do anymore. And you was held accountable for what you done down
in Lincoln. You pay for what you done. People are not paying for what
they do no more. So that's my stance on that.
BOB GILGOR:
I think that's a good place to end, Walter. I appreciate your sharing so
many of your feelings and memories with me. Thank you.