Title:Oral History Interview with Burnice Hackney, February 5, 2001.
Interview K-0547. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007):
Electronic Edition.
Author:
Hackney, Burnice,
interviewee
Interview conducted by
Gilgor, Bob
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Mike Millner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2006
Size of electronic edition: 128 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2006.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
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English
Revision history:
2006-00-00, Celine Noel and Wanda Gunther revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
edition.
2006-04-04, Mike Millner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of sound recording: Oral History Interview with Burnice Hackney,
February 5, 2001. Interview K-0547. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series K. Southern Communities. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (K-0547)
Author: Bob Gilgor
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Burnice Hackney,
February 5, 2001. Interview K-0547. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series K. Southern Communities. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (K-0547)
Author: Burnice Hackney
Description: 173 Mb
Description: 45 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on February 5, 2001, by Bob Gilgor;
recorded in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series K. Southern Communities, Manuscripts Department,
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
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Interview with Burnice Hackney, February 5, 2001. Interview K-0547.
Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Hackney, Burnice,
interviewee
Interview Participants
BURNICE
HACKNEY, interviewee
BOB
GILGOR, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
BOB GILGOR:
This is February 5th in the year 2001 and this is Bob Gilgor
interviewing Burnice Hackney at the Chapel Hill Library. Good morning,
Burnice.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Good morning, Bob.
BOB GILGOR:
I appreciate your taking the time to let me interview you, and I'll get
started with a broad opening question and that is what was it like for
you growing up in this area and where did you grow up?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I grew up a couple of miles outside of Chapel Hill, [NC]. It was outside
the city limits. It was the Chapel Hill Township but you actually go
through Carrboro, [NC] and it's about two miles west of downtown
Carrboro. It's not very far from town but it is a very environmentally
sensitive area actually right next to the reservoir so that it's not
really developed even today as some of the other areas of Chapel Hill.
It's a very beautiful area.
I grew up with my grandparents. My grandfather was a third generation
farmer. We had a 100-acre farm and were pretty much self-sufficient that
was in the means of livelihood as well as the means of subsistence. I
went Northside Elementary School. I started at Northside Elementary
School, I think, in 1955.
Most of my trips to town were school related although we did have family
members that lived in town. My grandmother had a sister, Jessie Farrow,
she lived right at the end of the playground of Northside. We had other
family members that lived in the
Page 2
community. My
grandmother would come in to town once a week every Saturday actually to
do her grocery shopping. We'd visit friends and family members in the
community. Most of my growing up was outside of the city limits of
Chapel Hill.
BOB GILGOR:
What were your grandparents like?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
They were beautiful people, very principled, very religious. My
grandfather had left the area. They both were originally from this area,
Chatham County by way of Warrenton, [NC]. My family actually traced back
as far as our known history to the 1780s, but I guess around 1830
migrated by force to Chatham County and then from Chatham County they
moved up to Orange County where I reside today.
My grandfather he had gone from the area to Pittsburgh, [PA], but when
his father got ill he returned to the family farm back in 1935. They
both were very beautiful people.
BOB GILGOR:
Who was the head of your family, your grandmother or your
grandfather?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, I guess it's sort of like mine, my grandfather was the head of the
family, there's no doubt about that, but he was a very quiet and soft
spoken individual and as women do have their ways of accomplishing their
objectives and so I guess you could say the bottom line is that it did
evolve around my grandmother. She was a very aggressive woman and very
outspoken, but in the quiet times he was the head of the home.
Page 3
BOB GILGOR:
So he was a farmer and did your grandmother work also?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, basically for a time she did domestic work and actually she did
that up till her retirement. She would go in for a family which was—as
white families were—connected with the University. Her employee was Paul
Guthrie who was involved with the business school at UNC. He's
retired.
BOB GILGOR:
Did she talk much about her work for the Guthries?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Oh, yes, the Guthries were like I guess quite a few of the white
families in Chapel Hill, somewhat enlightened. I think he was an
Episcopalian. He was strongly religious himself. They took an interest
in the development of myself and my brothers. We were in their home
often with my grandmother during the summer. She spoke quite frequently
and highly of the Guthries.
BOB GILGOR:
How many brothers and sisters did you have?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, most of them were younger. I'm the oldest. I actually have four
brothers and one sister. There were six of us.
BOB GILGOR:
Where were your parents when you were being raised?
Page 4
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I was born one year after my mother graduated from Lincoln, and for a
time she was there in the home but she later moved, I guess, when I was
about four years old. By that time I had bonded with my grandparents and
they had bonded with me. The result was that I and my brother next to me
remained there and we grew up with my grandparents.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of house did you live in out in the country?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, it's funny; I live in the same house today. My great-grandfather
he was somewhat of a Renaissance man. He was a Baptist preacher as his
father was, John R. Hackney. Around 1910 [he bought the farm]. Thomas
Lloyd was actually the architect; the original architect of Carrboro,
[NC], he sold out to Julian Carr who Carrboro later became named for,
but Thomas Lloyd built the original mill there. My great-grandfather had
acquired over a hundred acres from him and did hard work as a farmer. A
few years later he was able to build a very nice two-story farmhouse. I
reside there today. It's been renovated and maintained over the
years.
BOB GILGOR:
So I take it you didn't grow up poor.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, financially as far as currency, yes, we were poor. There is a
saying that you are land rich and dirt poor. We lived off the land
basically, but I never really saw a lot of money. I always had enough
money for requirements for the things that I needed and some that I
didn't, but I can't really say that I was very poor.
Page 5
BOB GILGOR:
I guess you did subsistence farming; you raised your own food.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
They raised food for the home and then also some for sale. Didn't really
get to meet my great-grandfather. My grandfather, I went around with him
many times to the grocery stores, the University cafeterias, and what
have you. He would sell corn, peas, and butterbeans, mainly
vegetables.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have chickens or pigs?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Very little. We did have cows at times and occasionally we did have
pork. Most of the other members in the community what one didn't have
the other had. We didn't have a lot of chickens and we didn't have a lot
of pork but we always had what we needed. We didn't have horses but we
did have cows.
BOB GILGOR:
What was your grandparents feeling about your education?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Education was paramount to them [grandparents]. They both were very avid
Bible students and so early on we would have weekly Bible studies. We'd
go to Bible studies and what have you, so I guess you could say that it
probably began there. They were very, very big advocates of reading and
acquiring an education.
BOB GILGOR:
They had books in the house?
Page 6
BURNICE HACKNEY:
There were a tremendous amount of books. I guess as I say, my
great-grandfather and my great-great-grandfather were both Baptist
ministers. My great-great-grandfather was one of the founders of the New
Hope Baptist Association that still exists here today. In growing up in
the home, the home was somewhat of a museum itself as you can imagine
because actually three generations had gone before me that were in the
home. The men had been very, very involved in religion and education and
so all their books as well as books that had been acquired by subsequent
generations were in the home and we were encouraged to read those as
well as other current material.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have a dictionary in the house?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Of course we had dictionaries, and we had encyclopedias, yes. Let me say
this, you know, it's interesting your objective here and your
involvement with the reunion and the documentation of Lincoln. My
great-grandfather actually, John Hackney, he contributed the property
for the Harriston Grove School. It was a one-room school. This predated
the public school system. The teachers, one of which I knew, Miss Rosa
Holloway, they resided there in the home. As a matter of fact, my
bedroom currently is the bedroom that the teachers roomed in as they
were teaching. There was a very strong connection with education.
BOB GILGOR:
I knew of the Hackney School. Is that what you said the Hackney
School?
Page 7
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No. Well, there's a connection with the Hackney School also, but this
actually predated the Hackney School.
BOB GILGOR:
The Harriston School?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes, Harriston Grove.
BOB GILGOR:
Did that become the Hackney School? Did your grandparents contribute to
the Hackney School?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, it's very interesting. We have done some pretty extensive research
on the Hackneys. There are actually about three different Hackney
families that pretty much came out of the same community, the same
plantation or whatever that were unrelated, but they were involved
religiously and educational and so the Hackney School itself actually
was [founded by] another branch of the Hackney plantation.
[Laughter].
BOB GILGOR:
Did you feel that you had a happy childhood?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I was the oldest and so I've always felt a lot pressure there and for a
time I was alone. I have a brother that is two years younger than me. It
was very happy and it was certainly an idyllic setting. My grandparents
had a tremendous amount of love. My grandmother was loved by hundreds if
not thousands of people. She grew to become a
Page 8
matriarch of hundreds within the community. There was a lot of love
around and we were very happy to be a part of it.
BOB GILGOR:
Who were your playmates?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It's a little funny that—. You had a sense of community but basically it
differs from the municipality in that you were looking, within our
situation, you were looking at communities that you might have a hundred
or two hundred acre farm. The farm would be populated by the extended
family. You had adjacent community members of the same situation. There
were always relatives, family members around. You may have to go a half
a mile or maybe a mile but people were constantly interacting.
BOB GILGOR:
Your playmates were mainly black playmates.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right, exclusively. My grandfather had white contacts for a time. I
don't think it was his intention to continue to farm. He actually left
and went north to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, he returned, and then for a
time he worked for the guy who did the arboretum at UNC, Mr. Bill Hunt,
and so through his associations from time to time children that would be
related to employers or customers or what have you. We had one or two
contacts but for the most part they were black.
Page 9
BOB GILGOR:
I could spend more time here but I know your time is limited and so I'd
like to move on to Lincoln although I feel I'm leaving a big void, I
mean, there's such rich history here that I would like to get into but
we are wanting to focus on Lincoln.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right.
BOB GILGOR:
You went to Lincoln what years and what grades?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I think I went to Lincoln in '63. I graduated from Northside, which was
originally Orange County Training School. I went directly to Lincoln.
It's funny; Ms. [Lucile] McDougle was my teacher from the 3rd grad thru
the 6th grade at Northside. I graduated and went to Lincoln where Mr.
McDougle was principal at Lincoln. I guess I should tell you one other
thing, RD Smith, another renowned educator, his wife, Euzelle Smith was
my 1st thru 3rd grade teacher. I had some super, super teachers all the
way through. I went to Lincoln in '63.
BOB GILGOR:
What was Lincoln like when you went there?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It was a bit overwhelming, I guess, as the freshmen transition usually
is. You're going to a situation where you are new; you're the youngest
class there. We looked at the upperclassmen as being giants or mythical
figures. Even the upperclassmen started teaching you from the time that
you came in. The guys would teach you things about manhood and about
standing on principles. A little bit of a transition in that you're
going
Page 10
from one teacher all day to going around to
different teachers. I was fortunate there at Lincoln also to have some
good teachers. Of course Mr. [C.A.] McDougle was a legendary figure.
BOB GILGOR:
What made Mr. McDougle legendary?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I guess the tragedy of it all is that we all were working with what we
had to work with and Mr. McDougle had little other than human material
basically to work with and so he focused on personal development more so
than anything else. I can rarely recall an encounter with Mr. McDougle
that was strictly academic. Usually it was some type of philosophical
higher principle that you always felt that he was trying to get across
to you. He was such an authoritative figure and uncompromising.
BOB GILGOR:
How did you know he was authoritative? What did he do that made him an
authoritarian person?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
He just carried himself with the dignity that he is in control, that
things will be done his way or you would go your way. [Laughter.] He never really compromised principles and he was usually
right.
BOB GILGOR:
What sort of things did he want done his way, can you remember any of
those specifically?
Page 11
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, of course, conduct. You had to maintain good conduct. You had to
maintain good appearance. You had to keep a focused mind. You had to be
focused on accomplishing something and that was our personal development
at the way that I interpreted it.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he meet the students at the door in the morning?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
He was at the door in the morning or whenever you entered the building
it seemed that particularly if the individual was late or somewhere he
didn't need to be, Mr. McDougle was always present. His office was about
midway down the hall, and I guess he could just step out of his office
and see both ends of the building as well as to the gymnasium that was
straight across from him which was another entry point. He seemed to be
always ever present.
BOB GILGOR:
Did the students fear him?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I never really detected a sense of fear. People would imitate him. I see
some of this today that when youngsters respect an older individual even
though the individual might be in an authoritative individual. A lot of
times they would in play imitate that individual; repeat the things that
he said or did, and it was somewhat of a comedy, but I never did really
detected a sense of fear.
BOB GILGOR:
How about respect? Was that a better word?
Page 12
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Respect, I think respect would be the word, the descriptive phrase
there.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he ever teach?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Not to my knowledge, I never knew Mr. McDougle to teach.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he ever come into the classroom?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I never really knew him to come into the classroom. He mainly, as far as
I knew, he stayed in the hallways or you went to his office and he did
what he had to do there.
BOB GILGOR:
What can you tell me about his walk, his look, and his voice? Was there
anything distinctive about those things?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
My memory is that he walked very upright and tilted somewhat to the
back. He was a balding gentleman, but he wore glasses and was light
skinned. His voice, I can't really recall if it was a deep voice but I
know it was a very strong voice. I wouldn't say that it was a bass, but
he spoke very distinctly and very strongly.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you remember or maybe as a student you wouldn't remember this, but
did you perceive him having influence over teachers and what they taught
and the way they taught?
Page 13
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Maybe I wasn't developed to the point to where I could observe this. I
never really detected his influence. The main perception that I had of
Mr. McDougle was that he was interacting directly with the students. I
never really got a sense of his interaction with the teachers. I don't
know if he had staff meetings, I'm sure that he did, but I just wasn't
aware of his interaction with his teachers. He had very strong teachers.
He had a core of teachers, I guess a minority was from the community
that had grown up in Chapel Hill or were connected in Chapel Hill. They
had a strong influence within the school. Then you had others that were
coming from different areas of North Carolina to teach.
BOB GILGOR:
Did those that came from outside the area live in Chapel Hill or
Carrboro?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Most lived in Chapel Hill or Carrboro or Durham, [NC]. There were a few
I think that lived in Durham. I think some may even probably have been
from Durham and Raleigh, [NC].
BOB GILGOR:
Did teachers or Mr. McDougle ever visit your farm?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
The teachers, a few. There were connections with the family. Mr.
Peerman, William Peerman, when I took driver's ed he would come to pick
me up and then once we were done he would take us home. For the most
part, we didn't have a lot of interaction in the home with the teachers.
Being outside of town, I guess, maybe—.
Page 14
BOB GILGOR:
You had mentioned RD Smith as a teacher, a strong teacher. Can you
explain more about RD Smith and what made you say that he was a strong
teacher?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
RD in a sense probably would rank behind Mr. McDougle in terms of a
legendary figure within the history of the school community. Don't know
that he was vice-principal at that point but he later did become at
Chapel Hill. There was a name that people had for him behind his back. I
never heard anyone call it to his face, although I had the opportunity
working for RD as I grew up. I had the opportunity of working with him
very closely and it's been a blessing to do that. He was called the
master.
BOB GILGOR:
Master?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes. It's something that preceded me but what I gathered from this he
was an industrial education instructor. A big portion of his educational
contribution, I guess at least early on was teaching different crafts,
teaching people to be a craftsman. Whenever you had a project or
something to do it had to be done to perfection. He knew how to do
everything, he knew when what you did wasn't just quite right, and so
that's how I took that characterization of him, his nickname of the
master.
BOB GILGOR:
Did he teach values also?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes, he did. He taught values and he like a lot of the others, not all,
were operating on an intensely personal level. I mean, if you have a
problem they approached you as a
Page 15
person with that
and tried to stress the importance to your personal development that you
get things together and operate in a certain manner. He was one that did
this. He drove the bus for the football team and so we got to
travel—
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Page 16
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
BOB GILGOR:
Anymore about RD?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
The athletic program was among the elite programs. I think the latest
article that I saw on W.D. Peerman said that he—of course had been
inducted into the North Carolina Sports Hall of Fame, but he was known
as the black Vince Lombardi. At a certain point, RD or someone acquired
a Trailways bus that was painted orange and had a big tiger on the side
of it. We were extremely grateful. We knew that RD had played a big role
in acquiring it and getting it painted. He was also our driver. He drove
us all over North Carolina really; Raeford, Lumberton, Burlington and so
I got to see him outside of the academic confines of the school.
We were always, it seemed, getting into situations even among ourselves
or with the other communities that we were traveling in were
opportunities for counseling and as far as personal development, ways to
conduct yourself as men and so this is the thing that I really
appreciated most about RD.
BOB GILGOR:
Where there particular kinds of personal problems that people would talk
to RD or other teachers about?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I'm sure that there were. Personally, I wasn't that involved as far as
my personal problems. I pretty much was able to keep things together to
a great extent. My parents, I
Page 17
relied on them for
that, but there would be situations that I would hear of that he would
intervene or observe where he and other teachers would intervene.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you tell me about your other teachers? Were there others who stood
out in your mind?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
You would have to—. Betty King is a current teacher. If she has retired,
it's just been recently. She was many, many years at Culbreth at the
later stages of her career. She was a local person. Betty King, Ross
Farrington and most of the ones that really stand out are local people.
Of course, Ms. McDougle, Ms. [Charlene M.] Smith, Ms. Pope, Mr. Fryer,
Mrs. Harry, Mrs. Cecilia Barns, there were a lot of excellent teachers
there.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you get the feeling that there was a turnover of teachers?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I didn't detect a turnover for the most part. I had three years at
Lincoln. You would have one or two new teachers each year, but for the
most part there wasn't a great turnover. As I said, my first three years
was with Ms. Smith and then three thru six Ms. McDougle. That's six
years there with the same people.
BOB GILGOR:
What about at Lincoln?
Page 18
BURNICE HACKNEY:
At Lincoln, as I say, you may have a couple of new teachers come in each
year, but the ones that were there they seemed to stay for a long
time.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you see the teachers at church?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, maybe Ms. King, she would be the only one that I can recall having
seen.
BOB GILGOR:
Are there other things about the school that you remember like assembly?
How often did you have assembly?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Assembly would be pretty frequently but my memory is not real clear on
that, but I know that it was a very big event. It was frequent that we
did have them, and the programs were very strong.
BOB GILGOR:
What sorts of programs were presented at assembly?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It could be something that was related to the situation where we ended
up having to merger, an information session, and discussion. It could be
a dramatic program or some presentation from the administration.
BOB GILGOR:
Singing programs or drama.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes, right.
Page 19
BOB GILGOR:
Band?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Oh, yes.
BOB GILGOR:
So were these frequent these performances?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes, I would say so. I can't really recall the frequency but maybe once
every couple of weeks or so I think we would definitely have an assembly
of some type.
BOB GILGOR:
You said that the administration would present something, was this a
performance by the administration or was this just news of what's going
on?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, it could be some development that was taking place. My years, the
60s, it seemed like there was always something happening. A lot of it
was related to Civil Rights, and a lot of it was related to
integration.
BOB GILGOR:
So these were issues openly discussed?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right. Well I wouldn't say that they were that openly discussed, it's
just that maybe it was presented the options that were available. The
situation was described and pretty much the options that you had
everyone was made aware of it.
Page 20
BOB GILGOR:
What about change of class? What was it like when you would go from one
class to another? Would you have noisy hallways, quiet hallways,
disorganized, organized?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It always seemed to be pretty orderly to me inside the building.
Outside, of course, it was very noisy. The playground was like a city.
It was always activity going on there but within the school everything
seemed to be pretty orderly.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you see any smoking?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No.
BOB GILGOR:
Or drinking?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No. There was absolutely—. Conduct was of the highest. Everyone
respected the rules and regulations in terms of conduct or they would be
subject to some type of discipline. As far as smoking, you wouldn't have
that.
BOB GILGOR:
Were you a member of the band or chorus?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, I was not a member of either. Actually, football was my only
extracurricular activity at Lincoln.
BOB GILGOR:
Was it a deemed to be a football player?
[Recorder is turned off and then back on.]
Page 21
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, of course, they had a winning tradition. It was one of the most
successful sports organizations of all times. The record was—. I don't
know what it was but it had to be eighty-five to ninety percent winning.
It was just a sense of pride. Your uniform, your shoes, your shoelaces,
and your socks, everything had to be of the utmost in terms of
presentation. So it was an extreme sense of pride to be associated with
the team. It was an elite group. You had to go through a lot in order to
become a member.
BOB GILGOR:
What sort of things did you have to go through to become a member of the
football team?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Basically, you'd just have to push yourself to the limits and it was
mainly conditioning that separated the men from the boys so to speak.
That was a catch phrase. I think that conditioning was the main
thing.
BOB GILGOR:
What kind of conditioning exercises or training did you go through and
who directed it?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, Coach Peerman was the orchestrator, but the captains, Bob Davis,
Fred Baldwin, Larry Edwards, Thurman Couch. The guys that were the
captains, they pretty much led the drills, but they were taught to us by
Coach Peerman. Also, some of the guys would come back from some of the
college programs and they would bring different things with them. But
conditioning mainly was running. You started practice by running and you
had to run maybe a mile or two miles before. Then calisthenics, you had
Page 22
different forms of calisthenics, and then
within the practice I know Coach Peerman had a device that was called
Big Mike. It was a big blocking sled and there were different ways that
you could operate that either as an individual or with others. Sometimes
we would go to a nearby hill and it was actually called The Hill that
was adjacent to the practice field and you'd do wind sprints up the
hill. It seemed like it was almost a ninety degree angle to go up but it
probably was more like sixty or seventy degrees.
BOB GILGOR:
When did you start your training for football season?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
You would start in July or either maybe mid July, but I guess that guys
that really wanted to make the team, I know that I did, you'd need to
start on your own pretty much around spring and just work up until
then.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have help when you started on your own in the spring?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, just pretty much ran. We didn't have any resources or anything. It
was just mainly running.
BOB GILGOR:
So you did this with others who wanted to make the team.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, either myself or not necessarily people that wanted to make the
team but some of my relatives, the guys that were in the community when
they came by they would often find me running around the field and they
would come up and run along with me.
Page 23
BOB GILGOR:
Did you lift weights?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No. Weights was—. I knew a couple of my class members that wanted to and
had gotten weights as a gift or through some means, but it was not
something that I had access to.
BOB GILGOR:
You would go to an away game in this big orange bus with a tiger on the
side and you'd get off the bus and what would you do when you entered
the stadium?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Basically you went to the high school, usually went directly to the high
school and you had your personal bag and you went into the building.
Basically, it was a sense that I guess people looked up to you when you
were coming in and you had this sense that you had to represent Lincoln,
you had to represent the tigers. It was a very professional type of
feeling that you had going in.
BOB GILGOR:
When you would dress for the game and go out on the field, were there
any rituals that you went through?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, usually you would go right into the school and then once you
dressed you'd probably go to the stadium. A lot of times we had to drive
across town to get to the stadium, you would go through the community
and so you got a feel for the layout of different places. There were
pretty much the same drills that you see pregame in the NFL
Page 24
or within the NCAA. The backs work together, the linemen
work together and you all come together and you do calisthenics and
maybe run through plays and what have you.
BOB GILGOR:
I was thinking more specially someone had told me the team would run
around the field and then go to the center of the field and do some
singing and some special exercises. Do you remember anything like
that?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I don't have any recollection of that, but I do know that we were always
singing. As I say, a lot of times we would have to leave the high school
to go to the other side of the town to the stadium, but wherever we went
on the bus we sang. We sang the fight songs.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you have a fight song, a Lincoln High fight song?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
There were just numerous songs. There seemed like there were hundreds of
songs that you sang. It was somewhat like the military songs.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you sing when you were practicing on the field before the game?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, not to my knowledge.
BOB GILGOR:
I also had heard something about white shoelaces and shinned shoes. Was
there anything special about that?
Page 25
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, your shoes, of course, you had to have the military shine on your
shoes. I never really heard a regulation or what have you, but I knew
that as a group you usually had four or five guys that maybe from the
time you got out of school on that particular day of the game that you
would be with until maybe five or six o'clock in the evening when you
would go to the school, but you were always going to get new
shoestrings. It seemed to be a thing of personal pride. I never really
heard that it was a regulation, but when you're in Rome you do as the
Romans do so everyone had new socks and they had new shoelaces.
BOB GILGOR:
What was your record when you were there in your last year in '65?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Lincoln?
BOB GILGOR:
Yes.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
'65, I think, was the last year that I was at Lincoln, and I think we
lost to Merritt Moore, I believe, in the state playoffs that year. I
think we may have lost another game throughout the year so we were
probably something like nine and two.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you play schools that had the same number of students, or did you
play up a division?
Page 26
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It varied. Usually we were up a division and according to the
population, we should have been playing at a lower level.
BOB GILGOR:
What was Lincoln High listed as a AA school?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
To my knowledge we were a AAA school, but we probably should have been
AA. It varied, and I think at one point we were AA actually and then we
moved up to AAA.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there particular schools that you played that stood out in your
mind as schools like Lincoln in the kind of teaching? Did you hear
stories about some of these other schools?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
There were schools I think that we looked up to. In this area you had
Lincoln in Raleigh, and Hillside in Durham. They were AAAA schools. They
were actually a legitimate level ahead of us. We didn't even play them.
We also had Merritt Moore that was in Durham. It was more of a school of
our size in rural Durham County. Then of course the schools out of
Greensboro, [NC], and I don't recall their name, Greensboro and
Winston-Salem, [NC], usually had some strong teams. If we were fortunate
enough to go far enough in the playoffs, we usually would play them.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you hear stories from the opposing players as to what their schools
were like?
Page 27
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No. I didn't really have very much interaction with any of the team
members from the other schools. My recollection is that we went in, we
played the game, and we pretty much had a few minutes to interact after
the games but that was it.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you get fed after the games?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes, we did. Well, we got fed, we did, after each game, we did get fed
and usually it was in the school's cafeteria.
BOB GILGOR:
And you did the same for opposing teams when they came to Lincoln?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you start in 1963 or '64 or '65?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I never started the entire time I was at Lincoln. I was second team in
'65, but I never made the starting unit. At Chapel Hill, I played
special teams, but I was also second team at Chapel Hill High.
BOB GILGOR:
You had mentioned before we started the interview that 1964 was a
special team.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
All the teams were special but I guess in terms of the statistics it
would be hard to really match that team. We had such a tremendous
offense as well as defense. I think we
Page 28
averaged
something like sixty-four points. We weren't scored on until I think
about the sixth game of that year.
BOB GILGOR:
Did they win the state championship?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
We didn't win the state championship that year. We did not win the state
championship.
BOB GILGOR:
How far did you go?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I think we lost in the semifinals of the state championship.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there any other things about the football team that you remember
that you want to share?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Mainly Coach Peerman the team—. Actually Coach Bradshaw was there and
went on to great success. He's also a member of the Hall of Fame. He was
there before I got there and before Coach Peerman, but the biggest thing
that I remember about the football team was the winning success and
Coach Peerman and how strong of an individual he was. He took a personal
interest in me, and the principles that he espoused was the biggest
thing that I remember about the football team.
BOB GILGOR:
What are some of those principals that you remember he espoused?
Page 29
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, he had so many, so many principles and sayings and what have you.
I think he once quoted that if you want to kill a gnat that you use a
sledgehammer. He just really wanted each individual to get every ounce
of their potential that they had within them. Even though I wasn't a
starter, I was a little on the lightweight side. He always seemed to
take a personal interest in me because I was always determined and no
matter what the challenge, I would attempt to meet the challenge, at
least meet it. That was the thing that I got from him is that you give
it all you've got and you don't worry about things after that.
BOB GILGOR:
Now, did they have two coaches when you were there or did they have more
than two? I've heard from others that Coach Peerman was the only coach
for a while.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right. You mean at Lincoln?
BOB GILGOR:
At Lincoln.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Yes. Coach Peerman was the only coach that I knew. He had student
assistants from time to time, but he was the coach.
BOB GILGOR:
Where did Coach Bradshaw coach?
Page 30
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Coach Bradshaw was there prior to Coach Peerman. I guess it was like in
the late 50s up to the early 60s, and then he went on to Hillside.
BOB GILGOR:
Can you remember other things about the school that you'd like
share?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I guess I have the sense that maybe we might be somewhat romantic when
we look back at the situation, but we worked with what we had. We really
didn't have a lot to really work with there. The facilities were not
what they should have been, and basically the whole thing with
integration I think pretty much came about because the political
establishment, nor their constituents were willing to invest the
resources in Lincoln and nor were they willing to send their children to
Lincoln, and so therefore Lincoln had to be shut down. We ended merging
into a better facility. I guess the lesson is that the facility is not
everything. There's a quotation and I don't know if I can recall it but
the sum is not always the total of the parts, and so it's not really all
about facility but you should have resources and resources are needed to
do a job.
BOB GILGOR:
What was the library like at Lincoln? Would you compare the library at
Lincoln to the library at Chapel Hill High School? You went to Chapel
Hill High your senior year I think.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Chapel Hill's library my recollection is pretty much like this library
here without the computers of course. It's a fine library here. At
Lincoln you did have the books and encyclopedias. I was an avid reader
personally and so I never was at a loss in terms of
Page 31
reading materials, but in terms of specific research I would imagine
that you would have a problem in terms of finding all the resources that
you would need for a particular research project. There were quite a few
books and there were a number of encyclopedias.
BOB GILGOR:
But not as big as Chapel Hill.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
By no means, you didn't have the periodicals, and you just didn't have
the archives as you do at Chapel Hill.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there other differences that you saw in the two schools that stand
out in the way of facilities?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
The facilities were smaller but I feel that they were better maintained
at Lincoln in terms of cleanliness and the maintenance and what have
you. Beyond that, the space, you had a lot less space. The heating
plant—. Now we didn't have air-conditioning but we did have
air-conditioning at Chapel Hill. Those were the main differences that I
saw.
BOB GILGOR:
How much time before you started at Chapel Hill High did you know that
you were going to be in school there?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It seemed that it was over the summer, but I guess we knew at the end of
that year sometime between the end of that year. I remember we started
discussing it. My
Page 32
recollection is that there was a
vote of some type as to what people actually preferred and the results
that we were given is that the majority of the people preferred to go
ahead and go for the better resources that were available at Chapel
Hill.
BOB GILGOR:
That's interesting. So there was a vote and the vote was not to stay at
Lincoln but to go the new Chapel Hill High.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
That's the understanding that I got. I don't know how it was tabulated
or what the actual count was, but I distinctly remember that the
students were polled in terms of would you want to remain here at
Lincoln or would you want to go ahead and move to Chapel Hill. It's
funny because I can't imagine anyone voting to really go to Chapel Hill
even though it was presented to us very clearly that we're not getting
the resources here at Lincoln and we will never get those resources. Of
course the court ruling is that you can't have separate but equal anyway
so that was the net result is that we were integrated.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Page 33
BOB GILGOR:
You had mentioned that you learned either late in the school term or
during the summer that you were going to go to Chapel Hill High and you
had some feelings about that that were just expressed to me while we
were changing the tapes.
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right. My personal preference of course being a senior would have been
to remain at Lincoln and given all the experiences that I've had at
Lincoln I had identified and bonded with Lincoln. I feel that many of
the other students felt the same way, but however the net result is that
we were told that the majority—at least this is my recollection—that the
majority of students preferred to go ahead and go with the merger
because of the fact that the resources were not going to be devoted to
Lincoln that would be adequate or equal to what were available at Chapel
Hill High. As I said, I'm relying on my recollection, which the event
was so stressful that I can't really say with one hundred percent
confidence that my recollection of this is accurate. It was very, very
stressful. It was a point in my life, in our lives, that would change
things for the rest of our lives. You're talking about not only
integration but you're talking about losing an institution that had been
a vitally important integral to the community for so many years. You did
that with the hope that you would gain better resources and that the
future generations would be better served in terms of education, but you
knew that you were losing at that time. So as I said, it was a very
stressful situation. My recollection is that we were told the majority
of students did opt for the merger.
Page 34
BOB GILGOR:
Was there some discussion as to whether the merger would be delayed for
a year and that Chapel Hill High School would be populated the first
year just by white students?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I can't recall specifically, but there was great consideration given to
our concerns as seniors that we would not be allowed to finish our final
year at Lincoln. I don't know if enough weight was given to that to
consider delaying the process. That's very doubtful. I can't imagine
that would have weighed that heavily in the process.
BOB GILGOR:
What were your feelings when you went to Chapel Hill High School for
your senior year?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, I've never been one to really cry over spilled milk but you have
your regrets. As I say, we knew what we were losing, but we didn't know
what we would gain so you try to keep hope alive. We went in and even
with athletics we were relatively successful. Chapel Hill was more
successful than they had been in the past. With the team, I think the
team was probably seventy-five to eighty-five percent black that first
year. In that situation, I guess they lost a lot that year in terms of
participation, that is, the prior members of the previous Chapel Hill
team. You go in and once the decision has been made our teachers started
trying to prepare us to make the best of the situation. We also were
seniors and so we knew that there would be differences. There was a
sense that the academics were accelerated and you had a very short
period of time to make the adjustment. As a senior, you still wanted to
graduate but there was a sense that certain of
Page 35
the
classes would be on a higher level than they had been previously.
Frankly, I found this to be the case with certain ones, and it's the
same today. Chapel Hill is more of a first year college level in terms
of their presentation. There was a lot of apprehension but you also had
hope. You could see that. I guess the caveat is that not only was Chapel
Hill being integrated but also the entire society was being integrated
and so this was just the beginning of what was it, the Great Society.
There were changes being made everywhere and there was more access and
you had more opportunities and certainly college and so your future
education was a concern.
BOB GILGOR:
What was your feeling about not having your senior year at Lincoln? Were
you angry at that or you just accepted is my take on it from what you
just said?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, you can sometimes read the handwriting on the wall and when you
have the opportunity of doing that then your best option in my opinion
is to make the best of the situation. I wouldn't say anger although
anger was a part of the process that we went through, the emotional pain
was there, but my main concern was to get through that senior year and
to graduate and to go ahead and proceed with what the future had for
me.
BOB GILGOR:
Were there differences in how you saw the teachers from Lincoln to
Chapel Hill High?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, obviously you couldn't have a more different transition, you going
from an all black situation basically to an all white situation, which
is a little ironic in that when I
Page 36
went to college I
went back to an predominately black college. That's life, you go through
different situations and you have to be prepared to experience different
environments, but certainly in a sense you didn't identify with whites
and you had very little—. My contacts with whites to that point had been
very limited. It was a big difference with the students as well as the
teachers; you just didn't identify overnight with another race group.
After going to a black college, I then had the opportunity to return
back to UNC at Chapel Hill so I had to make the transition again. That's
just the way life is, you have to go through different situations and
you have to deal with different people.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you develop friendships with whites when you were at the high
school?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Not real strong close friendships. Some of the guys I see today, it's
more like a thing of respect that we went through something together.
Maybe we detected a certain spirit within each other at the time that we
can identify with a few of the guys, Mike Earey, Rodney McFarland, but
not really a lot of close friendships I would say. A year's time under
those circumstances I think is asking a bit much. We had been prepared
that there would be a lot expected of us. That was a tremendous
challenge that we were given. I feel that the juniors and the sophomores
and the freshmen had more time to really adjust. We only had one year to
do what we had to do, and we could only do so much adjusting, and we
could only make so much in roles socially, and I don't think we made
very many.
Page 37
BOB GILGOR:
You came from a school where there was a strict discipline, where life
seemed to be fairly well regulated, there was some kind of a dress code,
I take, from what others have told me, and a certain kind of behavior
expected. Did this change when you got to Chapel Hill High School?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
The focus definitely shifted, and I see the same thing today. I have a
daughter that teaches within the system, and I've got a daughter that's
a sophomore at Chapel Hill High. The focus shifted and it's more about
academic accomplishment than it is about personal development. It's
basically that you have to achieve academically and it's laissez faire,
you get what you get. There's nobody there really trying to cram it down
your throat, there's nobody trying to really make sure that you get it
although I think maybe some of the latest developments and more emphasis
has been placed on achievement. How do you have achievement if you're
not promoting a person and you're not taking a personal interest in the
individual? I see this as the way it's going. Hopefully this new
direction that the school system is taking with the addition of the—. I
don't know what the person's title is but he's there to promote
achievement among minority students.
BOB GILGOR:
There's also been something in the paper recently about teaching values
again in the school system. Have you read any of that or what are your
feelings about that?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, it seems as though the battle had been fought on that but that's
always been a controversy is the school a place for values?
Traditionally yes, but today no, but now you
Page 38
say
that the discussion has been reopened and been revisited. Ours are with
the problem that have been had with the system and with the lag in
achievement of a large segment of the school population and you would
never attend to revisit some things. Personally, you're asking—. You can
teach values but you have to be very careful about it. You can't be too
successful with it, I don't think.
BOB GILGOR:
I want to go back to the transition from Lincoln to Chapel Hill High.
Was there any preparation given to Lincoln High School students about
the transition? Were there classes on it? Was there anything done during
summer?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
There were numerous discussions. From what I recall, there were small
discussion groups talking about the transition and about the—. Mrs.
Vivian Evans [Edmonds] was a guidance counselor at both Lincoln and
Chapel Hill. She was there at that time and I found her to be very
helpful as I always have during this period. I found her to be very
helpful in terms of discussing different challenges that would be faced
during the transition, and many of the other teachers also spoke about
it. The whole time and even before the merger became an issue, at
various times we would have discussions in terms of the importance of
abstract thinking, standardized testing, and what have you. So
periodically throughout the education process and even prior to the
merging issue its like we were being prepared for the alternative.
BOB GILGOR:
So you didn't go in cold turkey.
Page 39
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I don't feel—. In a sense, we did go in cold turkey. The bottom line is
basically there's nothing that could have been done to warm that turkey
up adequately to serve. I can't say that we didn't go in cold turkey
because, I mean, it had been done elsewhere. The Civil Rights Act was in
1964 and so here we are two or three years later getting ready to make
our move, but it's a new thing. You can't warm it up.
BOB GILGOR:
I want to go back and revisit Lincoln for a second. Do you recall how
many students started when you went to Lincoln in the seventh grade and
how many were still in your class when you left Lincoln? What was the
dropout rate is what I'm getting at?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
It just seems to me it was very minuscule. Seems like it may have been a
half a dozen, it may have less or it may have been up to a dozen, but I
would be very surprised if it was more than a dozen that were lost
during that time. I just can never remember people either relocating or
just dropping out of the system that much. Usually maybe a pregnancy or
something would occur and that was very rare. I think the dropout rate
was very low. At Chapel Hill, I think that there were about four or five
people that didn't graduate in '67.
BOB GILGOR:
Out of a class of?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that coming from Lincoln
that senior class was sixty-seven—you will have corroborate this—I want
to say that class may have
Page 40
been about sixty and
then the entire class I'm going to say it probably may have been two
hundred of that graduating class of sixty-seven.
BOB GILGOR:
Did you feel that you were treated the same as a student as the white
teachers as the whites were treated when you went Chapel Hill High in
'66?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I don't have a recollection of being treated differently it's just maybe
a sense of identifying with their teacher or the teacher identifying
with me. Basically, I went to a class and I tried to grasp what was
being disseminated and tried to score as well as I could on the tests
and that was it. There was no attachment beyond that as far as myself. I
can't imagine and I could even be a minority among the blacks, I can't
imagine the whites taking a sullen approach, it had to be more of an
identification there. They probably knew the teachers prior to that
particular time but I didn't really identify with them and I don't feel
that they identified with me. I don't have a bad memory of a particular
teacher of just this person being a racist. Racism still was something
that wasn't really dealt with on a personal level that much. It was more
like a societal type thing that certain things had to change within
society and not this particular individual has got to change. I didn't
really have a racial problem with any of the teachers that I was aware
of at that time.
BOB GILGOR:
How about with the white students, was there verbal taunting or physical
abuse that you saw or felt?
Page 41
BURNICE HACKNEY:
There was some but I gathered in '66 and '67 it was mainly everybody
just kept their distance. We were here but you go your way and I'll go
mine. It was more mutual respect or mutual disrespect. There were a few
individuals, a few confrontations, very few that occurred of a racial
nature. But then later on tensions did develop up to a higher lever in
subsequent years.
BOB GILGOR:
When you went to Chapel Hill High, your Coach Peerman was now the
assistant head coach and your principal was the assistant principal and
the core curriculum teachers were almost all white, was this something
that was noticed or discusses among the black students?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Of course, even had it not been discussed that's like an object lesson,
you see that this is how it's going to be. You bring me in but I want to
be second fiddle and so that was not a lesson that anybody wanted to
learn but it was very obvious that this is the way that things are
played out. I think that it may have even been more noticeable with
Coach Peerman in that he had been so successful that it didn't seem to
be a question that qualification could possibly have been the criteria.
In some of the other cases, maybe who knows? Some of those other
teachers may have been from better programs, some of the white teachers
maybe their high academic credentials may have been better, not to say
that they were more skilled teachers, but I certainly will find it hard
to believe that anybody could be a better principal than Mr. McDougle so
I guess we could see it there also. So that was a good quick lesson that
we did learn in terms of reality that hey, you still have got to work
harder at whatever you do. You still might come in second.
Page 42
BOB GILGOR:
What about the discipline at the high school, going between classes, out
on the school yard, you mentioned that you didn't' see any smoking or
drinking at Lincoln. Can you compare those things about behavior in the
schoolyard, behavior in the school, and how the schools treated it?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Well, there's an obvious difference. We had already detected that many,
many years even when we were at Northside. It's ironic; Northside was
really only a few blocks—. Northside was closer to Chapel Hill High than
it was to Lincoln and so in passing you would see the white students on
the other side of Franklin Street smoking the cigarettes at Ross
Norwood's service station in clear view of the schoolyard. Nobody was
trying to hide from the either their parents, the community, or the
school officials. This is something we had learned from elementary
school that as far as personal freedoms, discipline, conduct and there
would be a big, big difference there. There was a different standard and
we didn't learn anything different when we went to Chapel Hill High. The
personal conduct was secondary. The smoking, the dress, and your actions
as long as you achieved academically, and as long as you were white
everything was still okay. The black side of that, the dark side of that
to use a bad metaphor would be that no matter what the rules are as a
black person you still have a double standard. You can't just adopt any
kind of conduct or subscribe to a lifestyle where there is no discipline
involved even though the rules have been removed, and maybe that's the
dilemma that occurred subsequently is that you drop the rules but still
once you get into certain situations you're going to be treated
differently depending on whether you are black or
Page 43
whether you are not. You may be doing the same conduct but the penalty
could still be there.
BOB GILGOR:
Are you saying, Burnice , that if you had the same liberal kind of
behavior that the whites had that you might be penalized for it?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
The penalty will be more severe if in the other case there may not even
be a penalty. You are absolutely right; if you are white then maybe the
penalty would not be, but it definitely would be more severe for a black
person.
BOB GILGOR:
Are there other things that you recall from Chapel Hill High that you
want to share?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
No, I regret the loss of the institution but in life there are certain
choices that have to be made and there are always losses and
repercussions. There is a cause and effect when you do certain things
and certain things are going to happen. But the Chapel Hill system in
the terms of the resources and in terms of the facilities are still
ranked among the elite of educational secondary education so in one
sense I feel good and I feel that I did benefit from it. I know going to
college, my first year of college, it was like I've been there and done
this, and so there is a degree of ambivalence, you really regret what
you lost but you recognize that it is a good system educationally.
BOB GILGOR:
So you feel that that year is a fair interpretation of what you just
said that your year at Chapel Hill High prepared you better for college
than had you stayed at Lincoln, academically prepared you better?
Page 44
BURNICE HACKNEY:
Right. In terms of certain classes and particularly English class and
your writing abilities and what have you, you were better prepared, and
I'm being quite honest.
BOB GILGOR:
Is there anything else that you would like to share or anything that I
haven't asked you that you'd like to bring up?
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I guess I will just have to reiterate in my opinion the problem arose
because of an unwillingness to put the resources in the black community,
and it's unfortunate but over thirty years later we still have the same
problem here. We're sitting here in this facility that was just built
probably in the last seven years that could have been located in the
black community, but it's way out here on Estes [Drive]. The only
infrastructure that I have witnessed that I'm aware of that has been put
in the black community and there are only three public institutions to
date and that would be Northside, Lincoln, and Hargraves. This is 2001
and any time discussion comes up as far as a new school, a public
library, a police station or any type of public facility that's paid out
of tax revenue which all citizens are taxed at the same rate, black and
white, no infrastructure, no resources are going into the black
community. This is something that you can say is by omission or as by
commission but this is something that is happening and in this new
millennium we really, really need to stop being hypocritical about
what's going on around here.
BOB GILGOR:
Maybe that's a good place to stop, Burnice , unless you want to add
anymore.
Page 45
BURNICE HACKNEY:
I think we will stop. I hate to stop on a negative note, but as I say,
this is 2001, and we really do need to move on.