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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview L-0044, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
As the first director of women's athletics at the University of North Carolina, Frances Hogan shouldered the task of finding adequate facilities, equipment, and competitions for sports programs that were generally ignored by the administration. Hogan begins the interview by discussing the few athletic options that were available when she started working for UNC in 1946 and the various ways the coaches worked around limitations. She also compares the $1,000 salaries paid to women's coaches in 1973 with the millions of dollars some coaches received in the early 1990s. Hogan devoted many hours to building the athletic program even when she was paid no salary at all. She explains how she juggled coaching with teaching and family responsibilities, and tells stories of how students adjusted to barely adequate facilities. Some became nationally successful, though female athletic competition was discouraged by many people who thought it was a masculine activity. Hogan continues with a description of the rules governing women's club sports and how those rules changed with the switch to NCAA division sports and with the introduction of Title IX in the 1970s. She feels that Title IX brought necessary improvements that helped students realize the value of women's athletics. In general, she feels the program has been successful for several decades, but she worries that the most publicized male athletics programs receive too much funding.
Frances Hogan was in charge of finding facilities, equipment, and competitions for the women's athletics program at the University of North Carolina from 1946 to the 1970s. She discusses how students and coaches worked around the limitations to plan their own tournaments and occasionally succeeded on the national level. She describes the change from club sports to NCAA division sports and the introduction of Title IX in the 1970s. The interview ends with her summary of why the program is successful.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Women's athletics at UNC-CH was set up pretty much like most schools
across the country. When I arrived in 1946, UNC had a Women's Athletic
Association organized. We had campus-wide elections. We didn't need a
treasurer because there was no money.
No. Just a graduate student.
The only sport we did not have in intramurals was field hockey because so few people played, and we considered it dangerous for unskilled players. We had intramurals in badminton, tennis, golf, volleyball, table tennis, swimming, softball, and basketball. We even had intramurals in dance, where the sororities or dorms had to make up dances and present them and they were judged.
So you had plenty of alternatives.
Yes, there were plenty of intramurals. The percentage of participation was extremely high. I don't know whether it was the competitive spirit in trying to win the Dorm Cup and the Sorority Cup, or whether it did afford an outlet for students to have some fun and just some real vigorous activity. We had clubs in a lot of sports. The clubs were designed for the highly skilled player. If you participated in a club in a certain sport, then you could not play intramurals in the same sport. So, we had clubs in basketball, tennis, swimming and on and on. But I know I coached the basketball, field hockey, and the tennis clubs. And I actually coached tennis for twenty-five years. We had to call them clubs rather than varsity teams. We had the craziest regulations back then. Cut that off and let me see if I have. . .
But, here, for instance, this is dated 1970—much later. These were set
forth for intercollegiate athletics for women in North Carolina by the
advisors of the member schools of the North Carolina Athletic and
Recreation Federation for College Women.
These are some old books that I've kept on women's athletics, and they were about to be thrown away. It just infuriates me that they don't keep any historical records on women's athletics. Some have never considered women as having any athletics until we became members of the NCAA or until the women's program was placed under the Athletic Department in October, 1974. It makes me mad because we had outstanding athletes as far back as I can remember. We did not have as many because it was frowned on so much for women to be so athletic. It's entirely different now.
But anyway, from 1946 to 1970 there were guidelines. The women's athletic
programs had to be organized and directed by women who were trained in
the standards of the Division of Girl and Women Sports. The program had
to be conducted within their allocated budget. We didn't have a budget.
Before scheduling a home event, we' had to check the use of the gymnasium, pool and other facilities for conflicts. There's just so much to tell you. There were rules on travel. It's just too much.
Before they were called intercollegiate teams, they were clubs, right?
They were clubs. And until we became a charter member of NCAIAW in 1971,
we were still pretty much clubs. The difference between a club and a
team, even up until in the seventies, was that clubs were more
informally organized. In other words, the coach, so to speak, was there.
The students would come to practice if they wanted to. There was no, you
know, "you have to come." Frequently, a girl would come up and say,
"Mrs. Hogan, I can't be there. I've got a date," or something like that.
But it really was not that bad. And then as we started what we call
"varsity sports," the practices were more organized and students were
required to be present. One of
But when I was appointed director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women
in '74, we were still under the supervision of the Department of
Physical Education, and Dr. Carl Blyth was chairman of the department.
He knew that I'd always been interested and worked with the highly
skilled. He appointed me as director of Intercollegiate Athletics for
Women. Chancellor Taylor approved this, and I was given the title of
"Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women." That was in the
summer of '74 and I stayed
And all kinds of funny things have happened to the two of us since then. I'm just sort of wandering around, you know.
That's all right. Let's see if we can talk about some specifics about the clubs.
All right. The clubs were informally organized in the '40s, '50s, and '60s. We could not travel out of a fifty mile radius.
Why?
That was a departmental rule.
For just women, or for men too?
For just the women. We could play Meredith, St. Mary's, Peace College, State, Duke. Think how many schools are right around here. We didn't play the black schools back then. We did get over to UNC-G. I think we even played Greensboro College, maybe Guilford. You could play only five contests. It was very limited. Finally, it was increased to seven and finally to more.
And how often do you think they practiced a week?
In the early '50s, I would say twice a week. We had so many other duties like running intramurals, officiating, teaching, etc.
Which were every night?
Every night and the afternoons, too. Everything was different. Maybe we
had two practices a week, sometimes three. But we never met every day
until, say starting back in the late sixties. The last field hockey club
I coached, we were playing Meredith College. We played where the Student
Union Building is now. That was a first because the baseball diamond was
there. The baseball coach agreed that we could use the outfield. We'd
been maybe five minutes into the game when the band came out. They just
started their practice right out in the middle of our game and marched
right through. The Meredith team had to go home and we never finished
that game. That is the way it was back then. We had to fight for every
little thing. We used to play,
And you had to do that yourself? Just come up with some way to. . . . You probably bought the chains yourself.
There was no water on the tennis courts. They finally have a water fountain up there now. But the teams struggled. I mean, you'd have your opponents come in for basketball and "Oh, no. We've got to play in this box again?" The other schools called the women's gym "the box," and that's about what it was. The women's gym was not official regulation size for volleyball or basketball.
And so, did you have spectators?
We had them sometimes sitting in the windows. I remember Frank McGuire came down to see the girls play basketball, especially one girl. She was good. Coach McGuire said if she were a boy, he would have signed her up.
Really? Who was that?
Katherine Bolton. And she went on to teach at East Carolina. Very good athlete. And she and I used to compete a lot in badminton and other sports. She saw me not long ago and she said, "You know, I believe you're finally getting old enough and I believe I can beat you."
We've had some very outstanding events on this campus way before we went into the NCAA's. We had the National Collegiate Women's Golf Tournament here.
I think that was 1959.
Yes. And I have all the material on it. The lady who was the director
recently died, in March. I told her nephew-in-law,
One of the things you never saw was publicity on women's athletics. You just didn't hear about female athletes. And yet, we had excellent athletes. This is why these records are so rare. There was good coverage in the papers all around, from Winston, Greensboro, Raleigh, Durham and so on.
But I can remember Laura DuPont, who won the National Collegiate
Championship in tennis in 1970. It was called the USTA Women's
Collegiate Tennis Tournament. Laura was an exceptionally good player,
and I knew she had a chance to win. The P.E. Department could not
finance Laura's trip to the nationals, held at the University of New
Mexico. I made up my mind to go to Homer Rice. I didn't know him at all.
This was before I was made director of Women's Intercollegiate
Athletics. But he said, "Well, is she any good?" And I said, "Well, I
think she can win." "Well, I think we can arrange it." So, I thought,
"Gosh, that was pretty easy." So, in a meek way I said, "Well, Mr. Rice,
do you think I can go with her?" "I think we can arrange that." And that
was all that was said and I went. So, of course back then, the women had
always watched every penny. I still do that. Anyway, Laura and I went,
and she did win the whole thing. And when they announced her the winner,
and I knew the struggle we had been through, I had tears rolling down my
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Instead of trying to go straight down the line, she started hitting more in the center and cutting down on the angles of return. And all of a sudden, she started winning and she won the whole thing. And when they announced the "University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Laura DuPont," and they went out with this big silver bowl full of red roses. Tears were just running down my face. You know, I just couldn't believe that she had done it. And what a struggle we'd had to get there. So, I thought, "Well, when we get back, they'll really have this written up." Do you know the P.E. Department was so mad, the chairman was, that he would hardly speak to me because I had gone over his head. Before I left for New Mexico, I went over to see Jack Williams in sports information. I left all the information about Laura and where we were going to be. When I returned, there had not been one word in the papers. And I went in there and Mr. Williams said, "Well, I must have lost the information," and he kept going underneath papers on his desk, and he found the material I had left. He had no idea of writing anything. But that's how bad publicity was.
Laura keeps in touch and we still write back and forth. She was a student who didn't talk very much, very hard to get to know. And I don't think she really thought at first that I knew anything about tennis. You know how some students will do?
Yes.
One day she came and asked, "Mrs. Hogan, do you want to go hit some?" And
I thought
Well, you're a pretty good tennis player.
I was. Now, I wish I'd get out there and get some weight off. But anyway, the next year Laura should have won but she was sick. She beat a nationally ranked girl in the finals in 1970, and she was the first female student athlete to have her portrait hanging in Carmichael. It was a struggle to get her picture in Carmichael. Now there are many female athletes on the walls in Carmichael.
As you said, there were some great athletes here.
Great athletes. And I tried to provide tennis experiences. I can't
remember the starting date. I'd have to look in those notebooks. I ran
twenty state championships on this campus during the '50s, '60s, and
'70s. Now, this sounds ridiculous, but they were well run. They were
scheduled at a time when we could get the courts, even the varsity
courts, which was one day once a year. The varsity courts were down
there where the Paul Green Theater is now. But anyway, I started the
tournament because we had so many good tennis players here on campus.
And I invited all the colleges in the state of North
Really? Let's talk about the importance of the social aspect.
Well, just go back to that hockey game where the Meredith team had to leave. I said, "Well, we can go down to the women's gym and have some refreshments." They all went down into the bottom room in the women's gym, three flights down. There were little tables and we had cokes and cookies. We did that after every event whether it was basketball, tennis, field hockey; didn't matter. You went down there and you were supposed to meet all the other girls, talk to them, get to know girls from other schools and so on. But going back to that tennis day thing, and we had to call it a "Tennis Day" because it was done in one day. It was not really like a play day. This was a more competitive thing. It was highly competitive.
Well, were you sort of fudging the rules in that way? I mean, having a "Tennis Day," yet making it very competitive and having a champion?
I thought it was a very unique idea. I don't know of any school that has
ever done that. I don't know any community that's done that. I thought I
was pretty smart to think about it.
I think so, too.
And the coaches loved it. And we would have as many as nineteen or more schools here, so you can imagine the crowd.
Yes, that's quite some organizing.
Yes. But all the staff in the women's P.E. Department helped. It was fun. And the funny thing was we always had excellent weather. There was one time when we didn't, and I had a picture in here for years. I don't know what happened to it. But it showed everybody mopping the courts. And we still played off all the matches.
I think the idea of the social stuff afterward is such a nice idea. Did it work out well? I mean, was it hard to compete with people and then be nice to them afterward?
I don't think so. No, not at all. No.
Were the athletes just as competitive?
Yes. I think they were competitive in a nicer way. It's just like now, I
don't seem to enjoy tennis like I once did, because of the viciousness
or the tantrums or all that mess. I just can't stand all that. And it
used to be that you would say, "Well, it's out. I'm sorry."
Well, let's talk about a typical day of yours. Let's say in the fifties or sixties.
Well, let me just say this. When I started as Director of Intercollegiate
Athletics, I was paid. . . . Well, first of all, no women coaches were
paid until '73, '74. And it didn't matter what you were coaching, you
were paid one thousand dollars. So, if you did tennis, a thousand.
Basketball, a thousand, and so on. It didn't matter the length of your
season or how long you worked or who did what. You were paid the same
amount. And I was paid three thousand dollars as Director of
Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I gave up my vacations, worked
all summer on handbooks and stuff. You never had a vacation like
Christmas or anything like that, because you had your conventions at
that time. But I did that until, let's see, I stopped coaching in '76. I
said when Jane Preyor graduated, I was going to stop. The P.E.
Department still didn't have a lot of money to hire coaches. And so,
Carl Blyth said, "Let's hire some local people." And we did that for
tennis and for women's golf. But when I stopped the tennis, they decided
to leave the one thousand on my salary. So, from '76 until '78 or '79 I
made four thousand dollars as Director of Women's Intercollegiate
Athletics. I was still teaching, having to teach, so I was getting a
small teaching salary. Finally I was made full-time athletics. I guess
it was in '78 or '79. And then in 1980, John Swofford became Athletic
Director when Bill Cobey resigned. Everywhere I went, people couldn't
understand why we had two directors. So, I mentioned it to John Swofford
and I said, "I really think you're the Director of Athletics and that I
should be made an associate athletic director." And that's what we did
So, you had nothing to do with it?
No. And she was not as good as some of the others on my team, but somehow they all got along and it worked out. But I think getting into scholarships creates a lot of other problems.
About recruiting and things?
Yes. I've worked and given a lot of time to this University. My last
year, my salary was $38,000. I averaged a thousand a year because I
worked for thirty-nine years at UNC.
Whereas, you had been doing it yourself?
Yes. Other staff members helped. So, a lot of it, I guess, was my fault because I didn't speak up, but I was just that way.
So, in the early days, you had a full-time teaching load.
Yes, really until 1978. In 1974 I continued teaching full-time. I started at eight o'clock. Finished at three o'clock. I taught just about every hour. Rushed over to South Building to do my General College advising. Stayed there an hour or so and then rushed to the tennis courts and coached until dark. So, I never really had any time.
I can't imagine. That's amazing.
Yes, it is. I couldn't do it now. I mean, I look back sometimes and think, "Gosh, how did I do that?"
Did you ever see your family?
Yes. My husband was there always at night when I came down here for intramurals. We were fortunate. We had the nicest maid who took such good care of my children, and it wasn't always such a full schedule when they were little. My schedule became heavier and heavier. The intramurals were taken care of because my husband was always home. Anyway, it just worked out. My children were grown when my schedule became so hectic. And gone.
I haven't helped you a bit.
Yes, you have. You'd be surprised.
But you know, there are so many funny tales about athletics. We tried
back in the forties and fifties and so on, to be very professional about
officiating games. You never saw any of us dressed without a navy skirt
and a white shirt. And even back then, we required the intramural
participants to wear a gym suit. They all had to come to play looking
right. I just think it's amazing the way things have changed. I can
remember that first year after 1974 when I worked on the women's
athletic
You mentioned earlier before we were talking on tape that you said that you felt sorry for the highly skilled girls.
Back in the '40s, '50s, and '60s I did because they didn't have many
competitive opportunities. And so the whole idea, like with the Tennis
Day, was to set up situations for them. Back then, I had girls who had
been on the Junior Wightman Cup team. I had the tennis champion from
virginia. I had many good players. The whole club may have not been as
strong. I mean, there was a big difference between the number one player
and the last player. And I didn't cut anybody. I'd have eighty or more
people trying out for the tennis club. And we had a JV club. I was
trying to give opportunities to as many as I could.
Were you involved in the Division of Girls' and Women's sports? I guess in the fifties, that was. . .
Yes. We all were, really. We all were and we certainly tried to abide by all of their guidelines.
How did you feel about the guidelines?
Well, back then, that was all I knew, you know. That's what we had preached to us in school and college. I came from a high school that had an excellent program. Even down in South Carolina we had field hockey which was unusual. There was not a sport we didn't have. And yet, we could not play outside of that high school unless it was a play day type thing. If you were in the senior class, there were maybe four field hockey color teams out of that one class, so you played color games until you got down to the last class games. And we just had a terrific time.
So, you yourself played tennis and field hockey?
Oh, I played every sport and played club hockey. I guess I played fifteen years of field hockey. And I played tournament tennis since I was a little girl. And we didn't have divisions like we do now, so if you were thirteen you went and played in the tournament. You didn't have age divisions. [phone rings] It's not mine but it's ringing.
Did you do track and field?
Track and field and gymnastics were two that I did not do that much of. I
played a lot of golf, a lot of tennis, a lot of basketball, a lot of
field hockey. Of all the team sports,
Oh, she was so dainty and pretty and cute; not at all like me. And then I had two brothers; they are both dead now. And my father was very athletic, so he understood. I mean, I played all the time. There wasn't anything that I didn't try.
They didn't try to stop you?
Oh, no. Mother sent me to music lessons and all that, and then finally
she gave up.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
Basically, you didn't use any facilities in Woollen or the intramural fields?
We weren't allowed. We couldn't go down and use the racquetball courts
until Title IX came along. Title IX started the change in facilities.
The University had a grievance committee. You may check this out for
your report. But one of the first grievances was a female student
complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym. We had like five
people to a locker. And so, I happened to be appointed to serve on the
Grievance Committee along with Jim Cansler and Lillian Lehman. I can't
remember the others on it, but the chairman of that committee brought us
all over to Woollen Gym and we had a tour. This was before Fetzer was
built. We had a tour and they were appalled at what they saw in the
Women's Gym as compared to what they saw in the men's. And right away,
some of the space in the Men's Gym was converted into women's locker
space. As I've said, it's been a battle. The women's gym was designed
for very few women students. I think it was something like two hundred
students. Anyway, it was a small number. That figure could be given to
you by the people over in the P.E. Department. When we were trying to
raise the money to build Fetzer, I went out making speeches trying to
get the bond passed. All of us did. Fetzer originally was to be a
facility for females. And finally the idea was changed. I don't remember
now exactly why it was changed. They thought they could get the bond
through better if it was not called a female facility. Anyway, it
passed. Of
They don't teach, do they?
No. A few of them did when they were not full-time athletics. Now everybody's full-time athletics, except the fencing coach.
Anyway, you know all the changes.
Let's go back to you a little bit and how you ended up getting into physical education yourself. You must have really loved sports.
Oh, I just knew that was what I was going to do when I was a little girl.
And I was influenced by, not an aunt, but I called her Aunt Cilla. Her
brother was married to my father's sister. So, I just knew her real
well, and she ran a camp in the summers. She had finished at Sargent's
School in physical education, and she was one of the leaders there in
Sumter, South Carolina in physical education. She later became mayor.
That's how influential she was. The high school program was excellent
with excellent equipment and facilities. In Sumter, the women went to a
girl's high school and the men went to a boys, so we were separated by
blocks. The only way we could play basketball was on the stage in the
auditorium, and it was a frequent thing for somebody to be playing and
end up in the band pit.
But you made do.
Yes. We made do and had a great time. But I never questioned what I was going to do. I did think about going into medicine at one time and I was going to Wellesley. And then when I found out I had to have so many foreign languages, without saying a word, I changed my mind.
Really?
And my oldest brother was killed in World War II. And my youngest brother was badly wounded. But when he came back, he did not go back to the Citadel. He came here. And Bob Fetzer was a very good friend of my father's. And his brother, Bill Fetzer, had coached my father at Davidson College. Anyway, my brother Dick, who was here in school, was approached by Bob Fetzer to come out for track. Mr. Fetzer was the track coach. Dick came to me one day and he said, "Frances, I just don't see the point in running around just to be running around." But he did make the basketball team at UNC. Well, anyway, he told Bob Fetzer that I was finishing up at the University of Iowa and he said, "You know, I believe Frances would like to come here." Do you know that I was hired? Bob Fetzer and Ollie Cornwell discussed it, and Bob Fetzer said, "Well, any daughter of "Buck" Burns has to be all right." They never asked me for any credentials. Can you believe that I was hired? They would no more do that now.
Sight unseen.
Sight unseen. They didn't know whether I'd passed or failed or gotten a degree or what.
That's amazing.
And I had no idea of coming here because they had offered me a real good job to stay at the University of Iowa. But with the war, and all that my mother and father had been through with both brothers missing, I came back. And I guess I'm glad I did.
This was a Master's degree you were getting in Iowa?
Right. And I taught full-time there two years while I was getting it. And I taught one year at Winthrop before I went out there.
Winthrop's where you got your undergraduate degree?
Yes. I don't know whether you need any of that.
Oh, I would love that. Sumter, South Carolina was
And you know, every time Chancellor Taylor sees me he says, "It is S-U-M-T. . . ." See, he was spelling it S-U-M-P. So, I had to get after him.
So what was the job description you were hired for here?
As an instructor of physical education. And like I told you, there were
so few women students back then. And when I got here I was never so
miserable. I thought it was the most boring place because at Iowa during
the war, we were on a very fast program and you were covering like three
semesters in two. I started teaching out there at seven in the morning
and I mean,
But then they got you involved in other things pretty quickly?
Well, I did the intramurals back then. But I was so used to such a full schedule at Iowa. But we've had some good times here and I've enjoyed it. If I had to do it all over, I'd do it the same way. But I would speak up a little more. The difference that I see now is that we didn't wait for people to tell us. You know, now if they do something extra, beyond what they're paid to do, "Well, what am I going to get if I do that?" And there's a big difference. Plus, they'll speak up more now. You know, they question salaries and they question loads and budgets and so on and you just accepted back then, particularly if you were a woman.
You were just trying to do what needed to be done.
And I'm sure the same thing that happened to the women here probably happened all across the country.
I think that that's probably true.
I don't deny that. Unless you were in an all girls' school or something like that.
Can I ask you something that I'm interested in in my own research?
By the way, here is a thesis recently completed on the history of women's athletics at UNC.
You know, I was just reading that in the North Carolina collection.
And it is so wrong.
Is it?
Oh, I was furious when I received this copy. I went over to the P.E.
Department and went through this page by page with Dr. Billing. They had
a committee. The chairman was getting ready to leave to go to North
Carolina State. The graduate student who did this waited too long to get
started and so they were really rushed. They had nobody on the committee
who knew enough about women's athletics. Dr. Billing realized it. In
fact, Ron Hyatt, who was on the committee said, "You know, we
deliberated a long time whether to let that go through." Well, if they
felt that way, why did they let it? So then when I went through it with
Dr. Billing, he called the graduate school and told them that there were
many mistakes. That the thesis was not accurate. And he was originally
going to insert a page in the front of every copy over in the library or
wherever they put them to indicate that it was not accurate. He said the
dean from the graduate school called and said, "Well, most theses have
mistakes," and let it go. So, he hasn't put anything in it to indicate
that it's not right. But it is not right. I told him it was a disgrace.
In the first place, it's so poorly done and
Well, I'll give you an example of how things have changed now. We had the National Women's Golf Championship on campus in 1959. Golf is the oldest intercollegiate sport with a national championship for women, started in 1940. Did you know that?
Yes.
Because golf was considered a ladylike sport. Back in '59, we had to house the participants on campus. You couldn't do what they're doing now. And there were real specific rules about conducting the tournament. We housed them in the Institute of Government. It worked out really nice.
What other sports were considered ladylike?
I know that golf had the first national championship for women. I think your roughest sport is basketball. I've seen real rough looking softball teams. But the nature of the sport plays a role. I haven't noticed that this year. The softball team looks good, and they look like they are really fine girls. Actually, most all the female athletes are nice—tennis, gymnastics, volleyball, fencing, track.
Did you worry yourself at all about being ladylike, or you just wanted to play?
I just never thought about anything like that. I was a tom-boy, though.
I'll admit that. And the boys picked me, you
I'd love to borrow it and take a look and see
Go through that and see if it can help you any. You don't want to keep that, I'm sure.
I'd love to. Can I make a copy?
No, I have a copy. But it's just not very well done and it's the only one I could find.
Let me ask you one final question and maybe we can talk about whether we can talk another time after I've listened to what I've gotten.
Okay. I don't know how you're going to use that. Here's something. "The
Women's Gym was the hub of women's athletics from '42 until the late
sixties. Until then, it was the only indoor athletic facility available
to women students except for Bowman Gray pool. The building accommodated
all women's indoor physical education classes and intramurals." We had
everything there under the supervision of the Physical Education
Department. HEW's Title Nine, the students' complaint of locker room
space to the grievance committee, the increase in female enrollment, and
the completion of Fetzer Gymnasium in 1981 have all been contributing
factors to the many changes that have occurred in the facilities for
women. The Women's Gym was built to accommodate two hundred women
students"—you see, this is accurate—"by the U.S. Navy in 1942. At the
time, female enrollment was seven hundred twenty-eight. The gym has been
quiet, almost vacant, since the completion of Fetzer.
Yes, I would like to do that.
[END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
And by the end of the sixties, we pretty much started calling the clubs teams, or we considered them teams. We would go up to one another and we'd say, "Well, who does the tennis team play today?" Or that type thing. We never called them clubs. And all the restrictions that we had back in the forties and fifties and sixties were really the DGWS guidelines that we had to follow. Then we became a charter member of the AIAW in 1971. The framed charter membership certificate is in there. I guess it ought to be hung someplace.
We had in the program seven sports at that time. The number of sports
over the years depended on the interest of the females that we had on
campus. So, sometimes we had more sports than other times. Everything
depended really on the interest. If we could generate enough interest in
basketball; maybe the next year we didn't have enough interest, so, we
didn't offer the basketball program. But anyway, the seven sports that
we had going into the seventies were basketball, tennis, volleyball,
fencing, field hockey, gymnastics and swimming. Back in the forties and
fifties and sixties, actually, we had a synchronized swimming club. And
they put on an annual show. It took just an unbelievable amount of time
and it was always very successful. And Mary Frances Kellum was in charge
of that. Anyway, then when we became a charter member of AIAW in 1971,
all of the clubs automatically became varsity teams. And these sports
that I've already mentioned existed off and on for years as club teams
long before the
Who was paying for it then when you got switched to the athletic department?
Well, even though we were under the supervision of the physical education
department, all those years the money primarily for running anything
that we did in athletics came from the athletic department. And like I
said, when I became director there was about seven thousand in the
women's athletic budget. The year before that it was like two thousand
something for the total program. But you have to keep in mind the
department still had rules and we still had to go by DGWS guidelines. We
had to stay within a certain radius and so on and could play just so
many games and so many contests, so you didn't have the schedules
I remember arguing with Bill Cobey at the time and said, "Bill, I don't
think we should put soccer in because I don't know who they will compete
against." There were no college teams. He said, "Oh, I think we'll do
all right." So, soccer played really club teams that first year, and
then of course, you know the story. We've won most all the national
championships. Our soccer coach, in addition to all that he's done here,
has promoted soccer all across the country. And I think it is one of the
best programs that we have. Then when we went under the athletic
department, the department had to declare the division of competition
that we were going to compete in, in the AIAW. And there were three
divisions. Well, really at the beginning, we had mostly large schools
and small schools and that type thing. But they declared that all of
UNC's women's varsity teams would compete in Division One. And that's
what we did. Of course, we had no scholarships in '71-'72 when we first
became members of the AIAW. That was the rule and they prohibited
athletic scholarships for women until 1973 when a lawsuit was filed and
they finally allowed
So, who picked this girl?
I have never really understood that, but I think it was Dr. Blyth. And
the choice was all right. I had players on the team better, which made
it hard, but she was a good player. She got along all right with all the
others. I don't know whether they talked about it or not, but it always
bothered me that we had better players. But of course, every year the
scholarships have increased in the total program, and I think the
following year after that one, we gave three. And the next year, we gave
sixteen, and the number has been going up ever since. I don't know how
many they give now. Then, ACC championships were initiated in '77. Well,
first of all, go back to the AIAW because that was the first and only
national association governing women's intercollegiate athletics and it
existed for eleven years. Most of the schools wanted one set of rules to
go by; one of everything to go by. And even though I thought some of the
AIAW rules were really better than some of the NCAA, this University and
the chancellor and the athletic director all went in that direction as
most schools did. So, of course, finally the AIAW was out of existence
after eleven years. The last two years of the existence of the AIAW, we
all knew that we were going NCAA, so the coaches that we had could
declare whether or not they were going to play AIAW championships, NCAA
championships, or play both. And some sports did play both or
Was that a difficult decision?
For most, but I think it was not a difficult decision for the institution and it was an institutional decision. The athletic director and the chancellor both at that time, felt that was the direction to go. But as we went into the NCAA, they still gave the coaches time to adjust by saying, you know, "You can compete in AIAW championships, or you can do both. Or you can go just NCAA." So, it wasn't that we were cut from AIAW all of a sudden, so I thought that was good.
But you weren't really in on the decision?
Not really. I don't think it would have mattered. I was there when it was being discussed and all of that, but I didn't have a chance, really, to change their minds. First of all, the AIAW didn't have the money the NCAA had and that was one of the big things. They wanted men and women's athletics under the same rules. The NCAA was willing to establish championships for the women. And I don't know. It just went that way. Some of our coaches thought the women would receive more publicity.
Who made the decision to go with AIAW when it started to become a charter member?
Well, Mrs. Fink and our department, because back then everything was
really under the Alliance of Health and Physical Education (AHPHERD).
That was the thing to do then. Most all the schools joined. I don't know
whether Mrs. Fink discussed it with any officials. You certainly would
have to now. But back
How did you feel about that? Were you happy with this organization?
Yes, Mrs. Fink just came in one day and told everybody. She held up the little framed membership certificate showing that we were a charter member. Anyway, ACC championships were initiated in '77-'78.
How come that took so long?
Well, we were still under AIAW. And the first ACC championships were in tennis and basketball. Most of the ACC schools had these sports in their programs. Then cross country and swimming championships were added in '78 and '79 and volleyball had it's first ACC meet in 1980-'81. There have been ACC championships in field hockey and track and also golf. And we also had some unofficial ones in fencing. But the rule states there have to be five ACC schools with the sport in their program before they will conduct an ACC championship. I retired in 1985. I'm not sure how many ACC championships there are now for women.
But not in soccer and not in softball.
I think one interesting thing to note is that women coaches were paid for
the first time in '73-'74 and the salary was one thousand dollars per
year for each coach. Keep in mind that the coaches were all on the staff
of the P.E. department. Some were graduate assistants and some were
regular staff. It didn't matter the length of the season or how much
time you put
I'm sure they were. And how did you feel then, when these full-time coaches were being hired at these big salaries, comparatively?
Well, the salaries were not that big then. Jennifer Alley, the first full-time female coach, received an automobile to use. I received a car in '78. Back in the seventies, we had some men coaching, but mostly we had women coaches. Now, we have a male head coach of swimming, and men are head coaches in track, cross country, soccer, volleyball, gymnastics, and fencing. There are two assistant men basketball coaches. So, there are more and more men coaching women's teams, whereas in the early seventies and sixties and fifties, that would have been frowned upon and not allowed.
What do you think of them?
I think some of the men are excellent coaches. I think Anson is just a
terrific soccer coach. And I think Derrick Galvin is just tops in
gymnastics. Ron Miller is that way in
Am I going in the direction you want to go?
Yes.
I think it's interesting to note that basketball has had a lot of
different coaches. And over the years, we had Gail Stacy back in the
early seventies. Jean Eller followed her and Raye Holt and Sue Cannon
followed Jean Eller. In '73-'74, the women's basketball team or program
was put on probation. And it was done so by the North Carolina
Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I've told you
all of this, but there was a starting date and a stopping date back then
for every sport. So many of the schools in North Carolina were small and
the P.E. staff had to coach all of the sports. The NCAIAW tried not to
burden any one school, and so they had starting dates and stopping dates
for all sports. A person on the UNC-CH physical education staff, a
female, reported Raye Holt and Sue Cannon to
Do you feel good about where the programs are now?
Yes, I feel very good about the program. I think we have an excellent coaching staff. I really do. Ron Miller and Anson are both known all over the world for their sports. And the field hockey coach, of course, Karen Shelton Scroggs is a former Olympic player. So, I don't think you could find a better staff anywhere.
Can you talk for a while about Title IX?
Yes.
When was the first time you heard about it?
Well, we knew that it was coming and I think that's one reason Carl Blyth
was interested in the program back in the late sixties and early
seventies even before we became a charter member of AIAW. There was a
lot of discussion about it. I went to Atlanta to be briefed on Title IX.
And that was when Gywn Gregory talked at length about Title IX, and we
spent a whole day listening. I remember Willis Casey from N.C. State got
up and said, "Mrs. Gregory, how do you propose we pay for our stadiums
and our pools," and on and on he went. And she got up and she said, "Go
out and have some bake sales like the women have had to do all these
years." Anyway, it was a very informative meeting and I learned a lot
there. A lot of people thought it applied only to athletics, but it
didn't, of course. There's no doubt Title IX made a big difference in
women's athletics. I think this University would have had a good program
regardless. Things would have happened a little more slowly. I don't
think the budgets would have increased the way they have or the coaching
[END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 3, SIDE B]
I think the biggest thing, of course, would be the budget. There's such a
difference now in what we had way back and what we have now. The fact
that there's almost equal monies given to females as men in
scholarships. The women travel to places just as far away now as the
men. And at one time it was so bad about the travel that John Swofford
and I had a rule that you could not travel west of the Mississippi. It
was just getting too involved. And then the coaches started fussing
because unless they can compete against nationally ranked teams, then
there's no way their teams can get ranked. It also helps with
recruiting. The coaches had two points that they argued and one was the
recruiting and one was getting ranked. So, they do travel long
distances. Of course, if it's a real long trip, it has to be approved.
And there's no doubt that the facilities are pretty much equal now. I
can't see any difference in the facilities. The women have come a long
way from long ago when you had to lock the tennis courts up or fight for
a field or you were chased off a field. We were not even allowed to be
on the intramural fields back then. It was pathetic. And we did use, I
told you, the outfield of the baseball field over where the student
union is and that was rarely. We didn't get to use it all the time. So,
I think travel, the facilities, the budget, the full time coaches now
that we have, not only are they full time but they are well trained to
coach. The assistants that we have now, which we didn't have before, the
equal number of sports now for men and women. The equipment is greatly
improved. When
Don't worry about it. What was the reaction here about Title Nine from the students or the athletes or the athletic department?
I guess it was building up over a period of time. It went so smoothly. But I think we had a chancellor, Chancellor Taylor, who was very interested in women's athletics. We had a department head, Dr. Carl Blyth, who was very interested. And then when the program went under the athletics department, it took a little time.
You were on the student grievance committee?
I was on the student grievance committee and I was also on the faculty athletic committee. The faculty athletic committee is an advisory committee to the chancellor on athletics. And the grievance committee, I told you one of the first grievances we had was the girl complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym.
But you guys had been complaining about that for a long time, hadn't you?
Yes. Nothing was done. So, I know Title Nine helped that situation.
What was the reaction here to that complaint?
The men really had all of Woollen, all the intramural fields, all of Navy field, had baseball diamonds, oodles of locker space. And the only facility that the women used with the men was the swimming pool up until the late sixties.
So, were you glad when this complaint was filed?
I was. Yes.
Well, how about the athletic department and the people here?
Everything's fine. I think people realize that the women were not treated right, and they're glad to see the change.
It sounded like there were a few students at least who were angry about the differences at the time.
Oh, I'm sure. But back up until Title IX, students just didn't know any. . . . I mean, they just were so accustomed to being treated that way or having such poor facilities that it just didn't seem to matter. And then once they had a little taste of it. . . .
I think the first thing, basketball and volleyball started playing in Carmichael, and even then they had to practice over in the Women's Gym. And then finally, they got to the point where they were practicing and playing in Carmichael. I don't know. We've had some injuries in the Women's Gym because the wall is so close to the playing area.
It's a dangerous place.
No, I enjoyed all the committees and it kept me up on everything. And in fact, I learned a whole lot by being on all those committees.
I read that one of the recommendations at first when the department had to do a self-study, I think, to try and assess what the situation was for Title Nine. And that one of the recommendations was in order that officials for women's intramurals be paid the same as men who were doing officiating intramurals, so that they could get them paid the same amount was to assess a fifty percent fee increase for only women students. Do you remember that?
I don't remember that becuase I was not responsible for intramurals. No. The students paid an activity fee.
All students?
All students, yes. So I don't know why they said that they had to pay more.
It's strange to me, too.
I just wish I had a penny for everything I've officiated, and the hours I've spent.
I'll bet more than a penny. When this University sent comments to HEW on Title Nine, they recommended that the government distinguish between revenue producing sports and nonrevenue producing sports. Do you think that that's a good decision?
Yes. I never felt that just because the men were say, getting a budget of two hundred thousand, that the women had to get a budget of two hundred thousand. I think the budget depends on the need of the sport. The sports now that have very little in the way of a budget or very little in the way of scholarships are fencing, softball, and gymnastics. Yes, those three. I don't know why, because softball is listed near the top of the list of most frequently offered sports at member NCAA institutions. Not that I'm opposed to field hockey or lacrosse, but when you think about how few schools offer those sports in their programs as compared to how many offer softball. I always felt that we needed to include sports that the state high schools offer and also the sports that are the most frequently offered at other member NCAA institutions. Because I was talking to the track coach the other day and I said, "Dennis, y'all really have done well." Think of the schools that have track. So you've jillions of people to compete against and then if you take a sport like lacrosse, I'll bet there are about how many schools? Forty or more? So there's such a difference in competing where there are many schools to compete against as compared to a few. I think there's a big difference. Do you feel that way?
Well, I think that I agree with you that you try to give a team what they need and then, to some extent, you know, it's easier for the field hockey team to do well comparatively, if there's not very many people playing it.
They still meet tough competition. It's not that they don't. I don't mean that. It's just that so few schools have the sport.
I guess one of the things that I struggle with is do the men's basketball and football teams deserve a lot more special treatment? Maybe some more special treatment, but I'm not sure where you draw the line on that.
Well, I'm not sure either. I don't care whether it's fencing or football. When you play any sport, it just takes an unbelievable amount of time and I know because I went around and observed so much. I went to a lot of practices and made a point of going to see if time was being used wisely or whether it was really an organized practice. I think it's terrible for students to spend a whole lot of time if they aren't really getting anything out of it. We also made real close check on schedules, and I'm sure they still do, to see how many classes students would be missing. And the schedules had to be approved before they were official schedules. And the main thing that we took into consideration was how much they were playing in any given week. They could not play anything during exams or we didn't want anything going on on Sunday unless it was after church hours. We didn't want them missing a lot of classes. And sometimes, they would if they were traveling on a Tuesday every week, you know. So, that, we had to work on. There's a whole lot to it.
What do you think the students get from being student athletes?
You mean besides learning teamwork and that type thing? They improve their self-image, and they certainly gain confidence. They learn to work with others, teamwork, play well. They learn to cooperate. They learn to be considerate. They learn to give it their very best and be willing to pay the price. You don't get anywhere in athletics if you aren't willing to pay the price. And there are many people who are very gifted. God has given them a lot of natural ability, but it still takes more than that. You learn to win; you learn to lose gracefully. And it's just as important to learn to lose as it is to learn to win. Learn to be humble. I would not give anything for the experiences that I've had in athletics.
How about being on the other end? What were the things that you liked most about your job and what were the things you liked least?
The thing that I liked most was dealing really with students. I enjoyed
working with coaches. I think I liked the least, let's see? I liked
everything.
Have you seen evidence of much cheating or rule violations?
Not really. No. And we certainly enforced the rules and regulations. I
tried to. I can remember in the early part of soccer, Anson was winning
everything; his teams in soccer.
Do they have trouble balancing academics and athletics?
I think the coaches are working more on this now. I don't think so. Most
student athletes are doing well. Even women's basketball is up this
year.
Yes, you are. When did the first black women athletes start participating in intercollegiate sports here?
I really don't know. I guess it would be in basketball, but I cannot remember whether we had any. I think when Jennifer Alley came, really, is when we started getting more blacks. But I can't say that that's the first, you know. I really just can't remember that. We have had one or two in gymnastics, we've had one or two in volleyball. We've had a lot in track. We've had a lot of them in basketball, but I don't believe I've seen any in softball. There could be now. I don't know. And I haven't seen any in golf or swimming or tennis. But I have seen them in gymnastics. I haven't seen any in field hockey. I think most of them have played more softball and that surprises me that I haven't seen them out there.
One of the stories I was told
That was back when Jennifer was coaching. They went to Hawaii one time, I know. And did they go to London?
They tried to raise the money themselves and it sounded like they came up with about two-thirds of it themselves.
They did? I can remember that vaguely. So much has happened it's hard to remember everything. And I'm getting old and feeble minded. I've gotten so I really miss a lot of names now. But Jennifer Alley was a good basketball coach and she had a good record. And right now, I think the weakest segment of our program is women's basketball.
Were there ever any coaches who got angry about the treatment of their teams or frustrated and left?
No. No. We've had several to leave because, for instance, we had a girl coaching field hockey. That was at the time when we hired some local people. She was not that knowledgeable about field hockey and she was the first to admit that she wasn't. And she did work hard and she did the very best she could. And she came in one day and she said that it was time for her to stop. She said, "Mrs. Hogan, the team is getting too good, and I'm not able to coach them." And I think the coaches can sense that, you know, when they're not good enough. They come in and let you know.
That's interesting. So were the seventies a good time for you?
Yes.
You saw things improving.
Things improved. You know, it's funny that as hard as we worked and Bill
Cobey worked, when you read anything now, it's like everything has
happened within the last few years. Well, it's not true because we laid
the foundation and we also had championship teams and they talk about
all these championships they're winning now, but we've had championships
way back. And they do not put in the records over here now anything that
happened before we became members of the NCAA. So, if they give you the
soccer record of national championships won, they're talking about NCAA
championships. Soccer won the first AIAW soccer championship and it was
held out at Kenan Stadium and that
It's important for those things to be remembered.
Well, I don't know. I thought that was the worst thesis, though, I'd ever read. And I went over it and you can see how marked up it is.
How would you describe your personal style as an administrator?
Well, I'm sort of laid back, but when I get mad, I'm mad.
Can you think of examples when you got mad about something as athletic director?
Yes, I can think of some things, but they were soon forgotten. You know,
I don't remember things like that, but I can remember certain occasions.
I had a coach to go into my office one day and I heard her telling the
secretary, she was talking about me and she said, "I'm just getting
tired of that old lady," or something like that. We were to have lunch
that day. She came in later and she said, "Ready to go to lunch?" And I
said, "Well, I don't believe you want to go with this old
[END OF TAPE 3, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 4, SIDE A]
So, one of the things you say you've gotten on people about is failing to do a voucher right?
A voucher right or a lot of times, I thought they were using the telephone, say, too much, you know, just unnecessarily. We were trying to cut back on that and they just kept on. It was just little stuff like that, not anything really big.
And how do you think a coach should dress?
Well, I think a coach should dress appropriately for whatever she's coaching. I don't know whether you've been to any of the women's basketball games or not, and I'm sure women dress a lot of times the way they do thinking if they don't they look too masculine. So, they put on real spiked heels, and they go out on the basketball court. Well, to me that's out of place. On the basketball floor, you're trying to protect the basketball floor. So, they look like they're going to a reception or a wedding or something. I think that just a simple blazer and skirt or slacks if you're sitting on a bench. I see nothing wrong with any of that, but I think it has to be appropriate to the sport.
Did the change to the NCAA. . .
Well, like I've gone in the swimming pool when they had the team swim
over here in Woollen. And the University has a rule that you cannot go
in there with street shoes. There are certain specific rules that apply
to the entire student body. When I'd go in there and she the coaches
breaking the rules, that
Did the change to the NCAA affect teams very much?
No. No, I just think everything's better organized now since we're older and know more what's going on. And coaches, most of them, have been on the staff long enough now to know what's going on. They know coaches all over the country. They know how to get their schedules arranged and the teams to play. It's just so different now. They're so much more organized and know what they're doing.
Mostly with experience.
Yes. And some have been here, Ron Miller, I guess, has been here the longest as coach and he's the only one on the staff still teaching. And he prefers that because there are so few fencers, and he is able to locate fencers in his fencing classes and then work with them and get them to the point where they can compete.
Did you ever have somebody recruited from the P.E. classes for women's teams?
No.
Do you think women athletes are respected more today? You know, I think they get better treatment, you know.
Oh, better treatment, better publicity, better coverage. It's not frowned upon now. Males accept women now that are very athletic. It's certainly different.
Why do you think that's changed.
I guess it changed gradually over a long period of time. I think people like Chris Evert and Nancy Lopez have made a difference. Don't you think?
Yes. I've heard people say that a lot, especially about Chris Evert.
Yes, she was a good model. Chris. I just think that our women physical educators way back were the ones who were so opposed to females doing anything on a highly competitive level.
That's strange, isn't it?
It is. And you know, just like the DGWS, they fought anything that was highly competitive. The highly skilled girl really suffered back then. I can remember that there was a student at Winthrop College. That's where I went for my undergraduate work. And her name was Godbold. She was a terrific athlete. That was an all female institution back then, and the student body thought so much of that girl that they raised the money and sent her to the Olympics. She won several gold medals, but at that point in time, see, the school couldn't send her, and it was unheard of for a female to do stuff like that. But the student body backed her up and she went.
Was this when you were there?
No. Before my time. Way back in the twenties.
Do you have any guesses about why DGWS opposed things?
It's just like my daughter who when she was a little girl. People would
ask her, "Bucky, what are you going to do when grow up?" And she said,
"I'm going to do what my mom does." Well, she was athletic. Now she's
just the best looking girl and
Do you remember the attitude toward AAU at all?
That seemed all right. In fact, we had a national diving champion here, an AAU diving champion back in the forties. Female. Nobody ever remembers that girl, but I do. We've had some great athletes here.
Well, it seemed like AAU was the only group really offering championships at that time.
Yes. A lot of Y's, our Y in Sumter did a lot with that group. You should go into all of this because you seem so interested.
I am. I am very interested.
Yes. She's dead. It's real strange. I made her a quilt. She was in a wheelchair and I made her a little lap quilt and took it to her in Rock Hill the last of October. She had lunch brought in and we ate in her house. She stayed in that wheelchair the whole time. And it was shortly after that that she died. But we had the best visit, and she and I kept up with each other. She really helped me get to graduate school and helped me a whole lot. And just a real nice person. Fat as could be. A little short, fat lady. But she lost all her weight when she became so ill. I had Dr. Halsey and Dr. Gladys Scott at Iowa.
Oh, I've heard that name.
Yes, you would. And Dr. Scott hasn't been dead too long, and she has an
adopted daughter who lives in Durham. I didn't know this until I read
about her death in the Iowa Newsletter. Dr. Halsey was
head of the department when I was out there and they had a good staff
out there.
Another thing I wanted to ask you was do you remember or were you involved with the President's Council on Physical Fitness at all? Did that affect things much?
We all were involved in that a little bit and we tried to do all of that. We ran all those little tests and things. I can't remember all of it, but I remember, you know, the charts and things that we had.
It seemed to me that was one thing that started changing a little bit for women.
Yes. That's true. I think you're right.
I mean, here's the President saying it.
But look how many people now are jogging and walking and just doing all kinds of things. Even the older senior citizens are doing things, even if they're in a chair. They have programs for them out at Carol Woods. It's just a wide open field really. I think, though, that we pay our athletes too much. Don't you?
Yes, I think it's a little out of proportion.
I think it's almost ridiculous.
I'm not sure why we think they're that important.
I know. But then you take our total budget for athletics is close to sixteen million. And what's the total number of athletes? And when I left there were about, I don't know, I bet there were not six hundred.
I'll bet you're right.
Five or six.
And it wouldn't be near that much without football.
Well, we have some teams that have large squads like lacrosse and field hockey and soccer and fencing. Some of them do have large squads, but I don't think we'd have many more than that. So if you divide that number into the total amount spent, I often wonder how you justify something like that?
Well,
Scholarships come from the Educational Foundation, and then the rest is generated.
That's nice.
I guess it is. I don't know. I feel like we've left out important stuff,
but there's just so much to cover. There were only three advisors to the
Women's Athletic Association during the whole time I've been here. And I
did it, you know, the first four or five years and then I stopped to
have children. And during that time, Doris Hutchinson did it for three
years between 1950 and '53. And then I started back in '53 and went
until about '66, and then we had Mary Louise Cranford who did it. But
she didn't do it for very long because the men and the women started,
you see, doing the intramurals together. And up until then, it had not
been that way.
Okay. Well, the last thing on this is if someone wants to know about women's sports thirty years from now, you know, they don't know anything about it, is there one thing that you would tell them? If they're looking at it and they want to know what was it like for you?
Well, I think the school itself has changed—enrollment from, say, four
thousand something students to twenty-three thousand or whatever we have
now. It's unbelievable the buildings on the campus now and the growth
and the change in the facilities. Plus the change in female enrollment
because we had so few in the beginning. But we have always had a good
athletic program here for the women since '46, and I know that. And I
think we will always continue to have a good program. We had excellent
athletes. We probably didn't have as many, and I'm
I think so.
Yes. I think the records will be broken and people will keep getting
better and better. They'll probably find another vitamin to take.
What are you most proud of?
Well, I am proud of many things. The fact that I came here and have been successful, that I've been able to do what I loved and still have a family. I've enjoyed many experiences. I'm proud of being the first appointed Director of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics at UNC-CH.
Well, I really appreciate your time.
But I'm lucky. I think my mother thought I wasn't going to learn to read
when I was a child. She said, "Frances, I don't know how you've gotten
as far as you have." She was so funny.
END OF INTERVIEW