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FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, let me just say this. When I started as Director of Intercollegiate Athletics, I was paid. . . . Well, first of all, no women coaches were paid until '73, '74. And it didn't matter what you were coaching, you were paid one thousand dollars. So, if you did tennis, a thousand. Basketball, a thousand, and so on. It didn't matter the length of your season or how long you worked or who did what. You were paid the same amount. And I was paid three thousand dollars as Director of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. And I gave up my vacations, worked all summer on handbooks and stuff. You never had a vacation like Christmas or anything like that, because you had your conventions at that time. But I did that until, let's see, I stopped coaching in '76. I said when Jane Preyor graduated, I was going to stop. The P.E. Department still didn't have a lot of money to hire coaches. And so, Carl Blyth said, "Let's hire some local people." And we did that for tennis and for women's golf. But when I stopped the tennis, they decided to leave the one thousand on my salary. So, from '76 until '78 or '79 I made four thousand dollars as Director of Women's Intercollegiate Athletics. I was still teaching, having to teach, so I was getting a small teaching salary. Finally I was made full-time athletics. I guess it was in '78 or '79. And then in 1980, John Swofford became Athletic Director when Bill Cobey resigned. Everywhere I went, people couldn't understand why we had two directors. So, I mentioned it to John Swofford and I said, "I really think you're the Director of Athletics and that I should be made an associate athletic director." And that's what we did rather than having two directors. I liked the AIAW a lot. I liked some of their rules. Of course, we were not allowed by AIAW to give scholarships until '74, and the first scholarship was given to a tennis player who I knew nothing about. I had no say in that.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, you had nothing to do with it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

No. And she was not as good as some of the others on my team, but somehow they all got along and it worked out. But I think getting into scholarships creates a lot of other problems.

MARY JO FESTLE:

About recruiting and things?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. I've worked and given a lot of time to this University. My last year, my salary was $38,000. I averaged a thousand a year because I worked for thirty-nine years at UNC. [Laughter] I think it's terrible, but anyway, I've been happy. The main thing is whether you enjoy it. You see, I finally, after seventeen years or so of running the women's intramural program, asked to be relieved because it didn't count on my teaching load, and I just had so much. They gave it to a new staff member who had had no experience. Nice person. And they immediately counted it as half her teaching load. Plus, she also had paid officials to do the games at night.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Whereas, you had been doing it yourself?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. Other staff members helped. So, a lot of it, I guess, was my fault because I didn't speak up, but I was just that way.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, in the early days, you had a full-time teaching load.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, really until 1978. In 1974 I continued teaching full-time. I started at eight o'clock. Finished at three o'clock. I taught just about every hour. Rushed over to South Building to do my General College advising. Stayed there an hour or so and then rushed to the tennis courts and coached until dark. So, I never really had any time.

MARY JO FESTLE:

I can't imagine. That's amazing.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes, it is. I couldn't do it now. I mean, I look back sometimes and think, "Gosh, how did I do that?"

MARY JO FESTLE:

Did you ever see your family?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. My husband was there always at night when I came down here for intramurals. We were fortunate. We had the nicest maid who took such good care of my children, and it wasn't always such a full schedule when they were little. My schedule became heavier and heavier. The intramurals were taken care of because my husband was always home. Anyway, it just worked out. My children were grown when my schedule became so hectic. And gone.