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MARY JO FESTLE:

Can you talk for a while about Title IX?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

When was the first time you heard about it?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Well, we knew that it was coming and I think that's one reason Carl Blyth was interested in the program back in the late sixties and early seventies even before we became a charter member of AIAW. There was a lot of discussion about it. I went to Atlanta to be briefed on Title IX. And that was when Gywn Gregory talked at length about Title IX, and we spent a whole day listening. I remember Willis Casey from N.C. State got up and said, "Mrs. Gregory, how do you propose we pay for our stadiums and our pools," and on and on he went. And she got up and she said, "Go out and have some bake sales like the women have had to do all these years." Anyway, it was a very informative meeting and I learned a lot there. A lot of people thought it applied only to athletics, but it didn't, of course. There's no doubt Title IX made a big difference in women's athletics. I think this University would have had a good program regardless. Things would have happened a little more slowly. I don't think the budgets would have increased the way they have or the coaching staff. I tried to think of the things that really have come about because of Title IX. [END OF TAPE 3, SIDE A] [TAPE 3, SIDE B] [START OF TAPE 3, SIDE B]

FRANCES HOGAN:

I think the biggest thing, of course, would be the budget. There's such a difference now in what we had way back and what we have now. The fact that there's almost equal monies given to females as men in scholarships. The women travel to places just as far away now as the men. And at one time it was so bad about the travel that John Swofford and I had a rule that you could not travel west of the Mississippi. It was just getting too involved. And then the coaches started fussing because unless they can compete against nationally ranked teams, then there's no way their teams can get ranked. It also helps with recruiting. The coaches had two points that they argued and one was the recruiting and one was getting ranked. So, they do travel long distances. Of course, if it's a real long trip, it has to be approved. And there's no doubt that the facilities are pretty much equal now. I can't see any difference in the facilities. The women have come a long way from long ago when you had to lock the tennis courts up or fight for a field or you were chased off a field. We were not even allowed to be on the intramural fields back then. It was pathetic. And we did use, I told you, the outfield of the baseball field over where the student union is and that was rarely. We didn't get to use it all the time. So, I think travel, the facilities, the budget, the full time coaches now that we have, not only are they full time but they are well trained to coach. The assistants that we have now, which we didn't have before, the equal number of sports now for men and women. The equipment is greatly improved. When I was coaching even until '76, I did not get uniforms for my tennis team. I didn't want the other teams to think that I was doing more for the tennis team, being women's athletic director. So, my team never had uniforms as long as I was coaching. [Laughter] And now they have all kinds of uniforms. We now have paid officials. The women are not having to do all of that. The women are allowed to eat at the training table. They can get help with their academics. In other words, I think the men and women are treated as equal as anyplace I've been. What else do you think you need to discuss? I jump around so. I don't see how you're going to make this work.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Don't worry about it. What was the reaction here about Title Nine from the students or the athletes or the athletic department?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I guess it was building up over a period of time. It went so smoothly. But I think we had a chancellor, Chancellor Taylor, who was very interested in women's athletics. We had a department head, Dr. Carl Blyth, who was very interested. And then when the program went under the athletics department, it took a little time.

MARY JO FESTLE:

You were on the student grievance committee?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I was on the student grievance committee and I was also on the faculty athletic committee. The faculty athletic committee is an advisory committee to the chancellor on athletics. And the grievance committee, I told you one of the first grievances we had was the girl complaining about the locker space in the Women's Gym.

MARY JO FESTLE:

But you guys had been complaining about that for a long time, hadn't you?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Yes. Nothing was done. So, I know Title Nine helped that situation.

MARY JO FESTLE:

What was the reaction here to that complaint?

FRANCES HOGAN:

The men really had all of Woollen, all the intramural fields, all of Navy field, had baseball diamonds, oodles of locker space. And the only facility that the women used with the men was the swimming pool up until the late sixties.

MARY JO FESTLE:

So, were you glad when this complaint was filed?

FRANCES HOGAN:

I was. Yes.

MARY JO FESTLE:

Well, how about the athletic department and the people here?

FRANCES HOGAN:

Everything's fine. I think people realize that the women were not treated right, and they're glad to see the change.

MARY JO FESTLE:

It sounded like there were a few students at least who were angry about the differences at the time.

FRANCES HOGAN:

Oh, I'm sure. But back up until Title IX, students just didn't know any. . . . I mean, they just were so accustomed to being treated that way or having such poor facilities that it just didn't seem to matter. And then once they had a little taste of it. . . .