Title:Oral History Interview with Leroy Campbell, January 4, 1991.
Interview M-0007. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#40007):
Electronic Edition.
Author:
Campbell, Leroy,
interviewee
Interview conducted by
Wells, Goldie F.
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Jennifer Joyner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2007
Size of electronic edition: 88 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2007.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text:
English
Revision history:
2007-00-00, Celine Noel, Wanda Gunther, and Kristin Martin revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
edition.
2007-07-09, Jennifer Joyner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of recording: Oral History Interview with Leroy Campbell, January
4, 1991. Interview M-0007. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#40007)
Title of series: Series M. Black High School Principals. Southern Oral
History Program Collection (M-0007)
Author: Goldie F. Wells
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Leroy Campbell, January
4, 1991. Interview M-0007. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#40007)
Title of series: Series M. Black High School Principals. Southern Oral
History Program Collection (M-0007)
Author: Leroy Campbell
Description: 129 Mb
Description: 15 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on January 4, 1991, by Goldie F.
Wells; recorded in Statesville, North Carolina
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#40007): Series M. Black High School Principals, Manuscripts
Department, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
references. All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as " All em dashes are encoded as —
Interview with Leroy Campbell, January 4, 1991. Interview M-0007.
Southern Oral History Program Collection (#40007)
Campbell, Leroy,
interviewee
Interview Participants
LEROY
CAMPBELL, interviewee
GOLDIE F.
WELLS, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
This is January 4, 1991, and I am in the home of Mr. Leroy Campbell in
Statesville, North Carolina. Mr. Campbell was a high school principal in
1964.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I'm Leroy Campbell and I am in my own home and I am living where I was
living in 1964. I was a high school principal in Iredell County. I am
aware that this conversation is being recorded.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Mr. Campbell, I am doing some research and I'm interviewing principals
who were principals in high school in 1964, and principals who were
principals in 1989. I want you to tell me how you became a high school
principal.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
After completing my undergraduate work, and I went to A & T State
University--I always like to say that, I was immediately drafted into
service and I spent from 1943, through March 1946, in the service. I
came out of the service and went back to school. I was certified to
teach but it was near the end of the year and I did not get work. In the
meantime I became interested in changing my certification. I was going
to be an English teacher but I traveled quite a bit in service and I
felt I would be pretty competent as a history teacher. I traveled all
over the United States and into Italy, North Africa, three countries in
North Africa, through the Panama Canal into New Guinea and the
Philippine Islands and back. There were many things I felt that that I
wanted to talk about and wanted people to know about. Especially my
experiences in Africa and the Far East so I went back to school after
history not knowing at that time what the salary was going to be
teaching and I came out--I did a year at Atlanta University and I went
back to school to become a principal. When I came out of the service my
brother was working in a cafe out at Harmony, about 15 miles from here.
I think he was making $143 a month. I believe that is what it was and
when I came out my salary was going to be $145 a month teaching with a
Master's degree. So I did teach that fall after completing my Master's
degree and taught in Winston-Salem for four years and there was an
increase in salary for teachers that summer of getting my degree and my
salary with G 3 I suppose. They gave me credit for my army time because
I had completed my work and was certified before I went in but anyway my
salary was a great big $198 teaching on the graduate level at
Winston-Salem that year. I immediately felt that I needed to go into
administration. At that time we had a child who was born, as I used to
tell my wife--exactly nine months after I came to Statesville. But I had
only a little bit of work to do to become certified as a graduate
person. I could not get
Page 2
a graduate certificate there
until I had experience in the classroom. I had to work three years
before I would qualify for a graduate certificate in administration or a
graduate certificate even in teaching then. You did not get a graduate
certificate even though you had a Master's degree until you had taught
two years at that time. That is my background.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So that was your background. And when you became principal in Iredell
County, how did you receive that appointment?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
The school here wasn't built until I had graduated from--there wasn't a
high school here. I went to Morningside. I came from Harmony and stayed
with a Rickert family in Statesville and I went to high school here.
That is when I left home. The appointment here, Dr. Martin Pharr had
been principal here since the school was built. He had taught me English
in high school and he resigned after ten or eleven years and he was
leaving during the summer of my fourth year of teaching at
Winston-Salem. It came to my attention that the job was open. I had a
co-worker who wanted to be a principal and had more experience than I
had. While I was in Winston I wrote to Las Vegas, and to Los Angeles and
places like that. I had some leads on teaching positions where they were
paying more money. I knew that I couldn't live on what I was doing and
in Baltimore, Maryland too, and I told my friend about it and he came
over to see about it. He brought with him another friend. We all rode in
a car. You couldn't buy a car--you had to walk. I had bought a car and
we all rode everywhere together, school, work and grocery store and we
often played cards together and did everything together but this is kind
of selfish. He came for the work and was interviewed. The friend who
rode with him told me, Leroy, why don't you apply for it. We all had
gotten our Master's before we began work in Winston. I said I want to
teach some more. I don't think I know enough about it. He said well,
you've been in the army and that was training. He didn't ever say that
he had been over here. He did not say that the people said that if he
applied I knew that he would get the job and I was not interested but
then I was in summer school that summer and I got my principal's
certificate. I drove back and forth to Winston-Salem to A & T
and got my principal's certificate. When I got the letter saying that I
had gotten my principal's certificate they had not hired the person. I
came over without an appointment for an interview. I just drove over.
They had employed a new superintendent in Iredell County. They were
consolidating several small schools in Iredell County, one teacher
schools or two teacher schools and the superintendent was new and he
talked with me and he said, are you from here? Well, do you know where
these schools are? I said yes, and he said, well you fill out an
application while you are here and I did and we got a map down and
started looking at it. We got to be friends, I guess like you and I are
friends and I went on
Page 3
back and I told my wife. You
aren't interested in me and my work. She said, I don't want to go to
Statesville. She is from Hamlet. A few days later the Board of Education
met and I was elected the principal of the school. I had never been in
the school and I had never been on a bus and I had nine buses running
all over town. That is how I became a principal.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And because they were pulling in the one and two teacher schools, is that
how you got the name Unity School?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
It already had that name but the high school was already bringing
students from all those feeder schools anyway so all those schools that
I'm talking about the small elementary schools were consolidated into
schools that had more than seven teachers so they would have a certified
principal but the elementary schools were made into a certified school
so they could have a non-teaching principal. High school students were
already coming in but there was an elementary school on this site that
accommodated the people in this community.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Tell me about Unity School. Tell me about the composition of the school
and the number of people that you had to supervise and then I have some
areas that I want you to address but just give me something about the
school first.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
When I came here Unity School was about 480 students and a faculty of 18
people. I think 7 of them were elementary teachers, 6 or 7, and others
were high school teachers. It was a union school, one principal over all
of it and of course we had none of the personnel, guidance counselors,
librarian, secretary or assistant principal. So the county--there was a
lot of potential here. There was growth, every year there was growth and
the school grew from 18 teachers to 36 teachers in 18 years. We averaged
about a teacher a year and some years two teachers. And the student body
grew to 990 in that length of time. We worked with our staff. When I
came here, I was an older person even though I was just beginning, I
think I was 27 years old before I worked anywhere because when I got out
of school I went into service and then I went back to school so I lost
five years after graduation from college before I did anything. I wanted
to hurry and get where I was going so I had a Master's before I taught a
day and I came back and but it seemed negligent on their part so I just
made every kind of effort I could with the help of the staff who were
wanting to do things and we added off-campus courses here from A
& T, from Livingstone, anybody who would come here and hold
classes. People came from Morganton, from Mecklenburg County, Rowan
County. We had something going on here so we grew with pride over that
period of time because we thought we were way behind and we were.
Page 4
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How did you supervise your personnel and how did you select your
teachers?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
In the early fifties, Black faculties were stable. If you got a good
teacher, a good teacher wanted to stay. If you were doing something,
they would stay. I worked all those years. I only had problems with
recommending one person to be discharged from working with me. Several
people quit because if you didn't want to run fast, they said well I
want slow racing, they quit and went where they could work like that.
But I didn't have any problems with anything like that. I selected
usually on their academic training. I used that as the primary thing
because my feelings were that if a person could take the time to train
themselves, he had the commitment and discipline to be a good teacher.
My place then was to motivate and supervise and help the person become
what he wanted. He had already shown what he wanted to do and he was
trained.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Curriculum and instruction. I want to know how much input that you had in
the curriculum and instruction of your school.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
The good thing about segregated schools is that you could assemble a good
staff and get a good school atmosphere and get parents working with what
you are doing. You could do almost anything because you had no
interference. I think we achieved that and I had maintained--Dr. Frank
Tolliver had been my high school principal. He was the principal of
Asheville and he became State Supervisor of Black schools. He and Sam
Duncan. Mr. Tolliver came to me and talked to me. Dr. Duncan came first.
I had known Dr. Duncan because I went to Livingstone two or three days,
and I had to stay with my uncle over there and I left the same year. So
Dr. Duncan came and talked with me. He expanded my vision of where I
could go or where the school could go.
I think in one afternoon. He would never come in a hurry. He could spend
three hours with you and he would not come and say how are you getting
along and he would answer what you asked him. What about your curriculum
and where do you want to go? Do you have plans to get there? Will your
community support it? He talked with me about that. He suggested ways to
me that I could get more staff members that would not have learned until
a little while later. He said, you said that you wanted to put in
vocational courses because they come unallotted. You have to justify
that you can make up some classes in vocation and you have a good staff
and I had a vocational agriculture teacher and I got another vocational
agriculture teacher. That meant that I had two unallotted teachers. I
had one home economics teacher so I added to it and added courses and
had her to draw up the grocery sheet and draw up the spices so we had
four teachers that we didn't have to get from the state allotment based
on attendance.
That was one of the best things that happened and I think
Page 5
that Dr. Duncan had led me to expand not to use--we did not
have football. I maybe asked him how I could avoid it because our school
was growing fast. We were holding students. The graduating class the
year I came here was 29 students and five years later it was 89 students
so the holding power--the students were there, we had 125 people coming
in the freshman class every year so we were able to do a lot of things
that were happening. The community was going from a farm community to a
public works community so the students did not have to stay out. In that
way we were able to expand and hold the students. We added courses in
math and we had extra courses other than the four courses you know
regular courses in English. We had extra courses in math, we had extra
courses in science, and we taught all the sciences every year if we
could find a way to do it. I had teachers who would volunteer to teach
French I and French II and ask to do it in the same class at the same
time. I had a teacher who also would teach advanced composition and the
lowest class we had in English in the same class at the same time. I
don't know where under the sun these people came from. I had a teacher
who taught at night free. Mrs. Harris. She taught advanced math when the
class got so small we could not justify with 13 or 14. If you have 13 or
14 somebody else has got to have those other 15 or 20 students and you
would have to say, we're not going to have the class for the academic
students who needed the advanced math and we had had it the year before.
She said, Mr. Campbell, if you will let me, you're up at the school all
the time anyway in the evenings and at night, I'll come and teach them.
She taught the class at night. Those were the kinds of things that were
going on. They were able to interpret to the young people what education
means. I think that was the thing. They were no better prepared than
other people but they had commitment of interpreting. Mrs. Bradshaw
taught college English and the lowest English at the same time in the
same class. E.V. Dickens was the science and math, particularly science
teacher. E.V. was the most social person you've ever seen in a
principal. E.V. could have more students at school after school and at
night than the coach could have in the gym. Teaching science--we had
science fairs, doing experiments. There was an atmosphere almost of a
revival. I don't how they mingled and how they came but it was the most
unusal thing that I have ever seen. I never dreamed that could happen.
We went through--Dr. Huffer told me that your school is not accredited
by the Southern Association. I said, none of the others are. I said you
accredit your school. They don't know what you are doing. I'll tell you
what you are doing. You'll get a full time librarian in the elementary
school and a full time librarian in the high school. He said, they'll
just say yes, and they are going to have to pay for it because the State
is not going to allot it to you. Also, they won't let your teachers
teach over 30 students. They'll have to. They'll be ashamed to not live
up to what you are doing and so we did that and we became the only
accredited
Page 6
school in Iredell County by the Southern
Association until these new high schools were built in 1966.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
No White schools?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
No White schools had ever thought about it--about being accredited. The
state as soon as I got here then I came in 1951, and in 1957, we were
accredited by the Southern Association. But Dr. Duncan did this and then
Dr. Tolliver came at the same time and Dr. Duncan became President of
Livingstone. Dr. Tolliver had been my high school principal so he was my
buddy. He just took up right there and he said, what about you. Why
don't you go on and do some more work? Before 1950, or something, having
a doctorate didn't help you any in pay in North Carolina. They just
didn't pay you anymore for that in public schools because nobody was
doing it. I said I want you to know about my salary. He said, I'll get
you a scholarship with Southern, I can't remember what the name of it
was, in Atlanta, Southern something of schools and I took some work at
North Carolina Central. I can't remember the name of the scholarship but
the state could get about 26-28 people and I had a couple of summers
with that and it threw me in contact with men and women who were wanting
to do something so that leadership paid off in trying to get some
improvements for the school. I was able to use the other people. We
visited all the people's campuses and they showed us the things that
they were doing.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about discipline, Mr. Campbell?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I don't know. I was the luckiest man in the world. I had the best luck
with discipline. I think I had no problems. I really do. I was the
smallest guy on the hall but I didn't have problems. I don't know why we
didn't have problems. We had strict rules. We had no smoking for
teachers and no smoking for students and there was no way; we were
almost like the people in Turkey. If they catch you stealing, you cut
off a hand. We didn't have any problems. We had more children who wanted
to be taught. The parents supported the school. I must have been here
five years before I had a parent come in on me about some decisions.
They wanted and the children wanted to learn. I had children to break
rules everyday but they were worked out immediately. We had no
confrontations and things like that. Our students rode the buses.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That was the next thing. Tell me about transportation?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I always say that I am the expert in the world, my buses touched seven
counties, Rowan, Davie, Yadkin, Wilkes, Cabarrus, Mecklenburg, maybe it
is just six but…
Page 7
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I think Iredell County touches more counties in the State than any other
counties. I think it is seven too. It touches so many other
counties.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
My buses went to every nitch in there because it was the only Black high
school in the county. There was a Black high school in Statesville and
one in Mooresville but Iredell County is more than forty miles from
north to south. We were lucky with that where we almost had no accidents
and several years we would lose only one or two bus drivers for speeding
and that was if you got a speeding ticket even off the bus you would
still lose your license. We were fortunate enough to get a State
citation on transportation. It was a result of the county supervisor of
transportation. I didn't know I was ignorant that it wasn't going to
work right. It was working right and I thought that was right and he
said no, it doesn't work right. He came to me and said you know this
needs to be on the record there has only been one new bus assigned to
the Black school in the history of this county. He told me that. You are
brand new and I'm going to pretend that I am new, every year you'll get
your quota of new buses or more as long as I am supervisor and I did. My
routes were longer than anyone else. But I had second-hand buses. We had
excellent transportation supervisors even the person who succeeded him
was an excellent supervisor.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
But you were the on-site supervisor and you said you had nine buses.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I had nine buses and sometimes I had ten. I did a thing, I don't know how
all of this came about. I had organized a school bus driver's club and
they built up enough confidence in each other that they could reprimand
and tell on each other and tell where they were doing unsafe things. We
would take a field trip with the students and one of our regular things
we used to go to the McLean Trucking Company. At that time it was one of
the top four in the country. They had a safety program that was tops
among truckers because the truck driver was monitored every minute from
the time he got into the truck until he got out. They had a disk they
placed behind the speedometer and you couldn't get it. The mechanics
installed and when you got to your destination they took it out and they
put it with your invoices and things and if you were speeding they knew
it. If you parked and ate, it told how many minutes you ate. The boys
got the opportunity and got the feeling that they could be truck drivers
or they could be bus drivers in the public life and in this kind of
training they had knowledge and a commitment on their training and on
being bus drivers. I believe the mechanic told me I employed the first
girl driver, Black or White. Her brother tore a clutch out. If a person
tore a clutch out, he paid for it. That was a part of your contract. You
had to have a contract. There was Doris--I combined two bus trips with
one and she had a hundred and six miles a day.
Page 8
Fifty-three in the morning and fifty-three in the afternoon driving a
bus. She was highly motivated, safe and everything else. She is a
college graduate, she has a Master's and she is a school principal and
her husband is a school principal and all the things like that now. But
that made her get there. When I came, this has nothing to do with
criticizing or anything, it has to do with the bad roads. Things were
not paved then. Many of the courses were not offered because the buses
came in irregularly but I said no, we can make the route and we'll open
at 8:40 a.m. It takes no more gas to come that hour than it does later
or earlier and then they would all line up at the same time. They did
whatever, they were highly motivated children. Bus transportation
required a lot of time. I got to know everybody in the county even if it
involved baseball and basketball too I would take a child home, you know
where Houstonville is, out near where Harmony is about five miles above
Harmony near the Yadkin County line and out there we played baseball. I
would drive their bus for them in the afternoon. I wanted the exemplary
bus driver, girl or boy and I would drive the bus free and never charged
them a penny and when I got back my wife or somebody would come and
bring my car and I would come on back home.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about utilization of funds? Where did you get your money to
operate?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I don't know. The state and county furnished a good amount of funds for
the instructional supplies but I don't mean that we had enough but
utilization was another kind of thing--planning to do it without wasting
was one of the things. We had one project. We had a carnival each year
to raise money for instructional supplies and that is all we had. The
county had fees for supplemental reader's fee and a paid book fee but
other than that we had a school calendar thing once for a project that
made very good money. We had the old Golden Gate jubilee sales when part
of them came back to Charlotte and we had them to come in and do a
program. We had picture money. We did not do some things. We did a
yearbook every other year. It was two expensive for the children to
own.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Clubs would raise money to keep things going. You didn't have a band, did
you?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Yes, we had a band. But we didn't have a football team. We had to make
that choice. I made that choice with Dr. Duncan. He said what is the
best for the children? I said, we don't have fans, we don't have a
stadium, we don't have uniforms. We had a very good choir. Mr. Pharr was
a musician himself and they always had the reputation of having an
outstanding choir. We always had a good choir and we had a good band. We
started the band out and we did it in one year. We planned it one year
and had it the next and the students went to the band festivals and came
Page 9
back with first place things and things like
that. We had a good band for about 10 years, in fact it was 1959 until
1969.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about the cafeteria?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
We had one supplementary food, you know commodities. It was a bellyache,
if you will excuse the expression but it was a very necessary thing.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you have to start the cafeteria or was that already in operation?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
It was already in operation and it had a manager when I came. I had to do
the reports.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I forgot to ask you when we were talking, did you receive second-hand
books and your chairs and desks. Were they second-hand too?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Before I came here, the school was not very old. It was about 10-11 years
old when I came here. Many of the desks and things were right good
desks. The elementary desks were old desks because the elementary school
had been here for fifty years but if I had to add a teacher I got desks.
I had a desk furnisher in the county. In the first place, Mr. Helter
stayed here three years, and during the time we were getting it
accredited they fired Mr. Helter, because he enjoyed our working and the
others were fussing and the longer they fussed I got the till. They had
money they didn't spend every year so they put it in escrow. So I
escrowed it out but Mr. Cradle who was a retired person from Oxford I
think, he came here as an interim superintendent and he said to my face.
I will get you two classrooms of new desks today. He was supportive of
the educational program. They were going through what we are going
through now, trying to merge, trying to consolidate. We had as much
trouble consolidating the high schools, we had seven White high schools
in the county where we have three now, and they had about 100 people in
each one or 150 in each high school so Iredell County is not just now
getting back we've been back.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So it was just as much trouble trying to pull those communities together
as we are having now trying to pull Iredell and Statesville
together.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
More, we had at least two injunctions that prevented us from doing it. So
I didn't have any problem because I had a good superintendent.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That was good. You had a good working relationship because the
superintendent saw you were about something.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
He said that to me. I took it as though he meant it.
Page 10
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Buildings and grounds. Did you have to oversee that too?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Yes, but that was a big program. The campus here laid pretty well. It was
a pretty campus and had a lot of big trees in it and we never were
bothered with drainage or anything like that and we had plenty of space
in the back and we had a gym. We didn't have too much trouble with that.
After five or six years--I worked for the county in the summer,
sometimes I painted for them in the summer and I found out what was
going on everywhere because I had a pass key I went in everywhere, the
principal's office and everywhere. I learned that way.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you learn separate but not equal?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Yes, there were some things like that. But we were pretty backward. They
didn't have much either. Half the time that we integrated Troutman High
School was the only high school that competed with Unity's high school
program and the courses had equipment and things like that. Now when
they needed to do something their community was more affluent than ours.
They could pull in if they were skillful in getting people to do things
for them. I was there--in 1954, we bought a brand new activity bus. We
had five schools in the county and we coordinated the five Black
elementary schools with the high schools and we raised the money
ourselves and bought a brand new bus. I went out and put the first miles
on it and drove it back. Five years later, the time we wore out two sets
of tires we bought another brand new bus but we did it with the
community doing it--the PTA or the activities there. Now the industries
backed us up. The band was doing good things then and people would give
us money when we participated and things like that.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What was the relationship of the school to the community?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
It was pretty much of a community school. We had to do a survey when we
were doing the Southern Association to find out who you were and who did
you serve and what we tried to do for them but twenty-six churches in
the community that year that we identified our students attended. We in
some way or other would do something in the community. The choir would
do public appearances and things like that.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How much administrative power and control did you have over your school
site and your responsibilities?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
It had some challenges at times but being principal serves you well if
you are sincere. A person who wanted to maintain and was consistent and
was good for the community. I had a parent with a tractor and who ran
around
Page 11
on the grounds and he was playing with
students and I called the cops and they put him in jail because if a
child had fallen the tractor would have run over him and the same thing
with a student. A student threatened a teacher after school and he could
not come on the campus ever.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So you were a powerful man at that school.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Well, they supported me--I said what do you want me to do, so he didn't
come and the parents didn't even get after him. After the boy stayed out
a year, he came back and graduated and never had one more problem with
him.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And the parents accepted your decision?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Well, most of the time it was the parent's decision because I would say,
what would you do? If you had other children and you had to look out for
their safety, welfare and education and getting them back home what
would you do in circumstances like this. These are things that we can
do. How do you feel about this? They felt that they had made the
decision. I spanked in high school even people who had been to the army.
If you break a rule, you take the punishment. I don't want to spank
anybody. I don't want to believe in that but it gives you two ways to do
it. Go home and stay or your teacher can spank you. A woman who had to
spank a man who had been to the army said I can't spank him--he has been
to the army but he said, I came back because I know I want to be in
school. I want you to whip me so I can go back to class. I don't want to
go home. This is the most ridiculous thing in the world. So those kinds
of things almost never happen. Mr. Pharr was a powerful person before
me. He left the community in good shape to work with. He visited with
the parents a lot. They knew exactly what was going on. He left his good
will with me. I had been one of his students at Morningside. He taught
English at Morningside and so he wanted me to succeed so I was a lucky
man. Nobody has been as lucky as I've been, not at work.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How did the desegregation of schools affect your role as principal?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Well, we knew it was going to happen. There was a running battle almost
like Romel in North Africa. No community wanted to desegregate. The
communities were unable to prepare for desegregation and they didn't.
Our community did nothing to prepare for desegregation. The law said
there will be no more separate schools but there was no preparation
made. Each year they said that you could have an assignment you know and
they would just assign the least number they could. That was always
traumatic to the staff. There was no preparation for it. Dr. Newsome
will be buried tomorrow. He was the only person to be employed and that
was after we had Title I to hold county-wide workshops in
Page 12
desegregation. So we didn't have preparation for it. Now it
affected me because the trend was that almost all schools that were
segregated you took from the Black schools and added to the White
schools. So we knew that the staffing was going to be changed and the
schools couldn't be built for the convenience of the Black population
because the population was so scattered as a result and many of them
were inferior in construction so most of them looked forward to--like I
said I will be very glad when people will do fair things to people and
with people. When we looked forward to desegregation we were not
ignorant. We knew that we were going to pay a price and we had workshops
on the price that we were going to have to pay. We were going to be out
of field and we were not going to get the support and we were going to
be assigned and have students and parents that were not going to be easy
to work with. The parents were going to come in and fuss with the
principals and say that they weren't going to have a Black person to
teach their children and they did all those kinds of things to the
teachers. And then in 1969, when almost everybody had to do it then the
entire high school left and was assigned to all the high schools in the
county so the school was left then with 13-14 teachers at the elementary
school for one year. That is when East Iredell was built. I went from a
36 teacher school to a 14 teacher school at an elementary school.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How long did you stay at that school?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
One year and then it was closed and a year or so later it was used as a
Vocational Center in Wilkes County. Then I became general supervisor of
a county school. I worked at that a year. Then I became Title I director
for two more years and I did not function well as a supervisor. They
didn't want supervisors then. Principals did not want supervisors. They
didn't want Black ones or White ones. I was a Black and with principals
my relationship had been pretty well because I had been a principal and
most principals were men then. I don't think they had women principals
then. Yes, Miss Mary Morrison was a principal. But our school had sued
the school board to keep the school and then I became tarnished the year
before that. Morningside sued also. Morningside was successful in their
suit because their suit was heard before President Reagan--before the
Republicans got it and mine was heard four days later and the new
administration so our school was closed.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you enjoy your job and why?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I guess I enjoyed it. I didn't ever take any time off. I didn't even take
my vacation time in the summer. I wanted to be a teacher. I would have
liked to have never been an administrator. I would have liked to have
been a teacher all the time but I just couldn't quite make it with the
money and I was late starting and I wanted--you know how
Page 13
they use supervisors, don't you?
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Yes I do. I understand.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I wanted to learn a lot. I went to a six months school when I was going
to school in the country and I wanted to go to school all my life but I
never did have the opportunity. We farmed. We did big
farming--twenty-five or thirty bales of cotton so two months in the fall
I didn't go to school much. I wanted to be a school teacher. I think I
had reasonable success as a teacher and I never did lose the enthusiasm.
When I quit I could have worked another ten years just as easy. I don't
put all the fault on the system. I take my share. I think that helped me
just to say I believe if I work harder I'll do better. If I work hard
the students will recognize it and they will do better. I didn't have
many confrontations with staff. I tried to be at the school before
anybody got there and I tried to stay until everybody left. I would do
that at church. I don't want it to come over to people that I'm cutting
the job short and if people believe in you they wouldn't let you fail
for anything. You can't fail.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That's right. Now what do you consider your major problem in the
principalship?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Later on when I was able to get everything that I wanted I think my major
problem is that we didn't have the equipment and material and time and
staff. We needed secretaries, needed librarians, we needed guidance
counselors needed secretaries and things like that. Working the problems
out that we help children. It took so much time for children during the
day or during the time of teaching that you would take from the process
of learning. That hurt more than anything else. I would work at night. I
wouldn't do my work at school. I would do my paperwork here at my house
or that evening or my wife and my children would help me. Every book, I
handled everything with my own hands or my children and they were
willing to go up there and help me.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So it was a family affair? So they loved school too. What was the most
rewarding or what do you consider the most rewarding thing about the
principalship?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I enjoyed all of it. I believe that I feel that the number of boys and
girls and the quality of the boys and girls advancement in success. In
1964 or 1967, we did many things that other people learned to do after I
quit being principal. All of our boys and girls--I've been doing PSAT
for thirty years. First time I heard it we did it. If we couldn't do it
here, we'd get on a bus and we'd go to Charlotte and we had boys and
girls who could go to any school in the United States and students who
could go to Harvard or Yale, who qualified for Duke scholarships and
Page 14
things like that [unknown] and we'de
say they can't do it, but they'de do it anyway. That to me, being a part
of the children's success was what I felt that the success of the
student was the high point in my life associating myself with education
is to see them or continue to help them.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you see many of your students now?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Oh yes. Constantly, always writing and sometimes I write recommendations
for them now and there is always someone coming in.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Well, when you were principal back in 1964, there were over 200 Black
high school principals. When I started to do this research I wrote to
Raleigh last year and asked them to send me a list of Black principals.
They sent me 41 names and I found out that some of them are not
principals of high schools that graduate students. Some of them are
principals of alternative schools so there were less than 40 that were
in the state in 1989. If you had to give some advice to a Black person
who was aspiring to be a principal of a high school, what kind of advice
would you give?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I'm not in a position to give advice now. I've been away from high school
principalship for twenty years and it has completely changed. The
product is expected to change--the product that you get and the product
that you work with and I think I am a stranger to the high school
student. Nine years ago I was still an elementary principal but I was
away from students for five years for a break and when I went back they
were not the same. They were like a new world. I don't have any advice
to give anyone.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Mr. Campbell, is there anything else that you want to say?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I commend you for undertaking this. It is an extension of me. I did this
booklet Negro School Principals in Selected Cities of the
Public Schools of North Carolina.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So this is what you did for your thesis?
LEROY CAMPBELL:
For my six year research. So I just took schools right around here. I
took Iredell, Rowan, Davie, Charlotte-Mecklenburg and Forsyth Counties
for the six year thing. It is not what I set out to do. I set out to do
something else and my school was going to close. I didn't do anything
about it and I had done everything except research and I couldn't finish
the research because the high school was breaking up. Dr. Moore who
looked through the things at North Carolina Central and saw that my name
was there and he got in touch with me and asked me to come back and
maybe I could finish my work. I was the last person to get my degree
Page 15
down there. The six year certificate.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
There might be something here that I can use, Mr. Campbell.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
The statistical part has to do with the dropoff and the block of time
that I used. I used a small block of time.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Yes, you used from 1965-1970. I have in my literature review I have to
give some background on what did happen to the principals and what
happened to the schools.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
I set out to do something else and decided to do that and these are
people that I interviewed--Preston Allison at Charlotte-Mecklenburg,
Boyd Bailey was Assistant Superintendent, Robert Brow was the principal
at Winston-Salem/Forsyth, W.O.T. Fleming, you may know him.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I have been trying to get up with this man.
LEROY CAMPBELL:
He is retired and he is a very busy person. He is the head of the
Rowan/Iredell County Credit Union. Owen Freeman, Assistant
Superintendent of schools in Charlotte. He is a Black guy. George Knox,
he is a County Commissioner. C.H. Lindler, he was Assistant
Superintendent here, R.J. McLelland who is a Black guy who is a
principal of a school. There is Miss Mary Morrison who is a Black person
here, Mr. Peterson and Raymond Sarbar, he was Assistant Superintendent
in Winston-Salem. I used those persons when I was doing mine and you and
I did some of the same kinds of things. I was trying to find a field. It
was something I needed to get for me. There was something I needed to
know something about what was going on. I didn't do a good job because I
was disgusted. That was my low point in my life.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
You were seeing so much of being lost and you were frustrated. I wanted
to see if principals like you from 1964, and ones from 1989, still
viewed the principalship with the same perceptions of the role and I had
thought---
LEROY CAMPBELL:
Personally, if I were to say what I feel--people would say, the fool is
crazy. I would never have had the problems that I see people have. But I
know that I couldn't have lived in the times--I couldn't have brought
that time.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I'm so pleased that you have shared with me today. This interview has
been quite informative and when I finish the research, I'll give you a
copy of it but I'm going to give you a transcribed copy of this
interview so you can look over it and see if there is anything that you
think should be deleted but when I finish I'll give you a copy of my
research.