Title:Oral History Interview with Johnny A. Freeman, December 27,
1990. Interview M-0011. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Electronic Edition.
Author:
Freeman, Johnny
A., interviewee
Interview conducted by
Wells, Goldie F.
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Jennifer Joyner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2007
Size of electronic edition: 112 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2007.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
Languages used in the text:
English
Revision history:
2007-07-09, Celine Noel, Wanda Gunther, and Kristin Martin revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
edition.
2007-09-27, Jennifer Joyner finished TEI-conformant encoding and final proofing.
Source(s):
Title of recording: Oral History Interview with Johnny A. Freeman,
December 27, 1990. Interview M-0011. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series M. Black High School Principals. Southern Oral
History Program Collection (M-0011)
Author: Goldie F. Wells
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Johnny A. Freeman,
December 27, 1990. Interview M-0011. Southern Oral History Program
Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series M. Black High School Principals. Southern Oral
History Program Collection (M-0011)
Author: Johnny A. Freeman
Description: 156 Mb
Description: 21 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on December 27, 1990, by Goldie F.
Wells; recorded in Burlington, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series M. Black High School Principals, Manuscripts Department,
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
references. All double right and left quotation marks are encoded as " All em dashes are encoded as —
Interview with Johnny A. Freeman, December 27, 1990. Interview M-0011.
Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Freeman, Johnny
A., interviewee
Interview Participants
JOHNNY
A. FREEMAN, interviewee
GOLDIE F.
WELLS, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
We are in the office of Mr. Johnny Freeman who is now working in the
central office of Burlington City Schools. I'm just checking the
microphone. Today is December 27, 1990.
I want you to tell your name and what you are doing now. Also, I want you
to tell that you are being taped.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
This is Johnny A. Freeman. I am being taped by Goldie Wells at 1:15 p.m.,
December 27, 1990. Presently I am serving as Assistant Superintendent of
Staff Development and Operations for Burlington City Schools.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Mr. Freeman I want you to tell me how you became a high school principal.
I'm interested in--you're one of the few that I have interviewed that
served as a principal in 1964, and 1989. Right now I want you to just
focus on the school that you were principal of in 1964. That was in
Halifax County, wasn't it? I want you to tell me how you became a high
school principal in Halifax County.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, I was a science and math teacher at the W.A. Patilla High School in
Tarboro, North Carolina and I served in that capacity for three years.
During the summer I received a call from Dr. Fred Young, who was the
Assistant Superintendent in Halifax County at that time, relative to a
principalship at that time. I had been recommended by the Superintendent
of Edgecombe County Schools for that position. I interviewed for that
position with the late W. Henry Oferman and Dr. Fred Young, who is now
President of Elon College. After the interview Mr. Oferman asked Dr.
Young to show me how to get to McIver High School in Littleton, North
Carolina and I went up to visit the school at that time and some of the
teachers happened to be on duty. Later my principal learned that I had
interviewed for a principalship and he in turn told the Superintendent
that I was in line for a principalship. The Superintendent, the late
C.B. Martin, called me at that time and I told him yes, that I had been
interviewed for a principalship. So he told me when I got the job to
send his contract back to him. So I in turn called Mr. Oferman and told
him that I was under pressure to resign my teaching position as a
science and math teacher so Mr. Oferton told ne to go on and resign even
though the Board had not met and approved me as principal. But the Board
had never turned anyone down that he had recommended. He said for me to
go on and submit my resignation and if the Board did turn my
recommendation down he would have a teaching job for me. So I accepted
the job on those conditions.
Page 2
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And when the Board met, you were approved.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
When the Board met I was approved for principalship for Marie McIver High
School in Littleton, North Carolina.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How long did you work there?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I stayed there for three years and during the three years that I was
there, Fred Young went back to Columbia University and got his doctorate
and came to Burlington City Schools as Assistant Superintendent for
Instruction for Burlington City Schools. The next year he came to
Littleton with a Dr. Breck Profitt who was Superintendent of Burlington
City Schools and talked with me about coming to Burlington. So I sort of
followed Fred to Burlington. That is how I came to Burlington.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How many years had you taught before you became a principal?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I had taught a total of five years before becoming a principal. I taught
two years in the Whiteville City Schools, science and math teacher under
the late H.E. Brown, and I left there and went to Tarboro and I taught
in Tarboro for three years--one year under W.A. Patilla and two years
under Reuben Cherry.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Well, tell me about that school. Tell me something about McIver School
and the responsibilities you had. As you talk about the school I want
you to address the supervision of personnel.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
After coming to McIver High School, which at that time was a union
school--grades 1-12. We did not have very much of a turnover. It was a
Black school--union school--all Black teachers and all Black students. I
was fortunate in being able to hire some teachers after coming on the
scene and when I put together my first handbook as I became principal of
that school, the Assistant Superintendent at that time wanted to see my
handbook before sharing it with teachers. He was so impressed with the
handbook at that time he said to me that he just had that much
confidence in me to allow me to hire any person that I wanted. So I was
able to go to A & T and talk with personnel at A & T in
the personnel office there and to interview and make recommendations. I
have never been turned down for anyone that I have recommended for a
teaching position while at McIver High School. I had an excellent
working relationship with the Superintendent, the central staff, and the
staff at the school. I stayed there for a total of three years and Dr.
L.C. Dolly, who was President of A & T State University, talked
with me, matter of fact he was my commencement speaker one year while I
was there. He gave us scholarships
Page 3
and what have you
and when I was first offered the job to come to Burlington, I accepted
the position. I had a very good friend in Tarboro at that time, the late
James Bass. His backyard and my backyard joined. He was a high school
principal and I was a high school principal and we were the best of
friends. He did not want me to leave Eastern North Carolina to come to
Burlington and the late W. Henry Oferman at that time assured me that
the next high school that opened that was larger than the high school
where I was that I would get the next high school if I stayed. So with
that in mind I resigned the Burlington position and when I resigned the
Burlington position, Dr. Profitt then went to Dr. Dowdy, and Dr. Dowdy
called me up and talked with me. He thought that I had done all that I
could do there and he thought that I should consider a move. He assured
me that if I came to Burlington and did not like the job here with the
Burlington City Schools, that he would look out for me at A & T.
And so he asked me to talk with my wife, Shirley, and for us to talk it
over again and so we decided this time that we would come. So we
accepted the job here in Burlington and resigned the job in Burlington
and then we accepted the job back and we came to Burlington and I have
been here now for this is my twenty-sixth year and I do not regret
having come to Burlington at all but I felt that we had a good situation
in Littleton. I thought that we were able to focus and that has been my
focus from day one is trying to surround myself with the very best
people available and trying to come up with a top flight instructional
program.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Now that is the next area I wanted you to talk about--curriculum and
instruction.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That has been my whole hog from the very beginning--a quality faculty and
a number one instructional program and with a quality faculty you can
have that. Now I have been very fortunate since I have been in
Burlington because working with some of the student teachers from the
University of North Carolina and working with some of the instructors
over at the University of North Carolina. They got to know our high
school very well and they knew the quality program that we wanted at
Cummings High School and so they would call me up and say, "look Johnny,
we have a good math teacher coming through here the M.A.T. Broyhill and
they would fit well in your program. And that is the way that I have
been able to recruit quality teachers. I wouldn't have to go out but
Chapel Hill was directing people to us at Cummings High School and at
one time I had five Lenhurst Fellows teaching at Cummings High School at
one time. And that was because Dr. Gary Stouf and as a matter of fact I
had three Phi Beta Kappa teaching there at one time. It manifests itself
in such a way that just about every vacancy that came up my staff was
hit. At one time for Burlington City Schools, the Director of the
Reading Program used to be the Chairman of the English Department of my
school, the
Page 4
Director of the Writing Program was
Chairman of the English Department of my school and I am talking about
system-wide now., My choral director became Director of Cultural Arts
for the City Schools. I had a teacher that taught for me for ten years
that is now the coordinator of personnel for city schools--in fact his
only teaching experience has been with me. The Assistant Superintendent
for Personnel and Pupil Personnel was my guidance counselor, later my
assistant principal and later became administrative assistance to the
Superintendent and now she is Assistant Superintendent for Pupil
Personnel and Personnel. At one time I said to the Superintendent, I
said, you are killing me but he said but you have the horses and they
were coming to us for that. We have never been hurting because we have
always had the reputation of a quality instructional program
consequently we have been able to recruit top notch people and in doing
so I feel very fortunate to have been able to produce at that school--in
the twenty years that I was there I have been able to produce two State
Teachers of the Year and one National Teacher of the Year. So I think
that speaks well about the academic quality that we have at Cummings
High School.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you consider yourself a mentor?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, I considered myself a mentor and at the same time I have been
blessed to have had the opportunity to work for--my first teaching
experience was under a dynamic administrator, the late H.E. Brown.
Herbert Brown, who was principal of Whiteville Central High School and
later became principal of Ligon High School in Raleigh until his
retirement and I had the opportunity to go with him to Ligon in Raleigh
but I also had an opportunity to go home to teach, so I chose to go home
and he went to Raleigh. We left the same year. I have been able to
surround myself with some real top notch administrators and they sort of
guided me into the paths that I needed to be in and how to look for
people and how to do things. I can remember very vividly when I became a
principal. Mr. Brown took his job, came to Littleton arrived on campus
before the first bus arrived, observed the buses, observed me on my
first day all day long. At the end of the day, he sat down with me and
critiqued me on what he observed and how he would have done things had
he been principal. You just don't find that kind of mentoring going on
today. But that is what Mr. Brown did for me and the late J.E. Rastus
Best was the same kind of person. He would tell me, John, any problem
you have, tell me about it because I have already had it. And with those
two guys it was just hard to go wrong because I knew school
administrators. They were learned people and as far as I'm concerned
they were ahead of their time. And I feel very fortunate that I had the
opportunity to work with these people through the years and I learned
early in the game to try to surround yourself wih good people but I
guess I learned that from the book John F. Kennedy wrote named, Profiles of Courage. You know you
Page 5
surround yourself with the best people that you can and they make you
look good. That is what I did by being able to become directly
associated with the University of North Carolina and some of the
education people there and the M.A.T. Program there I didn't have to
look for science, math, English or whatever. They sent me the best and
then on top of that they would come by and see how those people were
doing and I'm fortunate right now to say that we still have two there
now; one left me through a marriage and one was transferred to the other
high school to teach calculus at the other high school because he was
not teaching math for me and they needed a strong math teacher and so he
is teaching at William High School now and he is Phi Beta Kappa. But
again, just having good folks--my philosophy is you hire good folks then
give them the opportunity to teach. Consequently at Cummings High School
in the twenty years that I was there I know that we haven't had any
teacher on duty in that school in 19 of those years. I never assigned
any teacher any extra duty at all. No bus duty, no hall duty, no
cafeteria duty, no duty whatsoever.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Well, how did you do that?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
The two assistants--the three of us we handled the general operation of
the school. The teachers have never been involved in that.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So you really left them free to teach.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That is correct. We expected them to teach. Now I had one teacher to say
to me, "that you expected a hell of a lot out of your teachers." I said,
"Yes, that is true but you have the time to teach and we expect it." I
have to say that we had the highest percentage of minorities of any high
school in Alamance County. There are six high schools in the county. Our
test results usually range from one to two--if we're not number one in
the county then we are number two in the county. Usually between
Williams High School and Cummings and I knew then that teaching made the
difference. I always say that we had a new facility, we had the
equipment, we had what we needed. Why can't we prove that we can do the
job and we were able to do it but the teachers enjoy it because at lunch
time they were free to have lunch in the lounge. They did not have to go
out on any hall duty, cafeteria duty, no duty whatsoever.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And you maintain that program. Is that going on since you left
Cummings?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I maintained it but I'm afraid they have changed it since I left. Things
have gotten a little hectic since I left. But I will say this to you. On
top of that, that's the way it was when we had grades ten through
twelve. The Superintendent said to me, "I know once you put the ninth
Page 6
grade over there you won't be able to do it with
the ninth grade over there. It took us a little while but we never did
put any teacher on duty with grades nine through twelve. As a matter of
fact we have had people visit us from several school systems to see how
we did it. But then again, we talked about pride, we talked about
feeling good about yourselves in school. When I came to Jordan Sellis in
1965, we talked about pride and when I went to Cummings we talked about
pride and everything was centered around pride.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Tell me about the names of Cummings and Jordan Sellis. Was Jordan Sellis
the traditional Black high school.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Jordan Sellis was the traditional Black high school and I want to say
this to you. That is where I started the process then with no teachers
on duty. Now when I went there discipline was pretty bad but we were
able to put it in line and I got total support from the Superintendent
and the central staff and we were able to put the discipline in line.
Then when I went to Cummings I didn't see why just because we had an
integrated situation we had to change and we went through some turbulent
times as you well know. We went through the riots and all that kind of
thing. The year before we closed Jordan Sellis in 1969, and we went in
the Fall of 1970, we had that school organized and we had plans for
having grievances--everything was outlined in writing for every child
and parent when we opened that school and consequently, we never had a
demonstration, we never had a walk out; now the junior high school which
adjourns the campus had several walk outs. But as I explained to the
parents and the students, I've never seen kids walk out of school when
it was raining or snowing or on a sunny day. So I told the kids, if you
walk out, the procedure for coming back is going to be different. You
are just not going to walk out and walk back in. So consequently the
kids knew and yet we had grievances if you have a problem this is the
procedure that you will follow. You go to guidance, and from guidance to
me, and then on up to the Board of Education but demonstrating is not
the way to handle a problem unless we can't get a resolution to what the
grievance is. So that is how we have been able to do it for twenty years
now.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So you really haven't had a big problem with discipline?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
No, we haven't had a big problem with discipline or anymore than any
other school would have had.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you handle it any differently in 1964, than you did in 1989?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
No, I wouldn't say we handled discipline any differently because I look
at kids as kids. Kids will make mistakes and as long as they profit from
their mistakes that
Page 7
is all I ask. But what I would
say to a kid if a kid is referred to the office then I would say to the
kid now what do you want me to do? Now can you do what the teacher asked
you to do? If the student says yes, that is all I want. If the student
says no, then I say, "You're not going back to class. We are going to
have to talk to your parents" and there have been times I have said to
the parents, "You're going to have to take the kid back until the two of
you can get together so you can come up with the expectation that we
have for our school but he's not going to stay here and disrupt the
school." And the kids and the parents understood this. And I've had
parents to say, Mr. Freeman, when I was here do what you did. That's
been a long time ago. You know It's been a long time but no we just
didn't do it. We did not put teachers on duty. I just don't believe in
that kind of thing. Mrs. Wells, when you have to post teachers all over
the building and parking lots there is something wrong. So my point is
that when I was talking to my Superintendent just last week I believe, I
said, you don't need a lot of rules in school. Schools are being
criticized today as having more rules than having. I said you need the
basic four rules. Rule number one is that you come to school to learn.
You want to respect yourself. You are going to respect others and I said
that is about all you need.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Three good ones is all you need.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I said, they are about as pervasive as you need. That's it because the
more rules you have the more enforcing you have to do. So don't paint
yourself into a corner. Because you learn that by experience. I'll say
it again. I had some darn good teachers--when I say teachers I'm talking
about the administrators that I have learned from. I went through
graduate school at North Carolina Central University and back in those
days they used to have what they called the Principal Institute and that
was where all the Black principals went. Andy Anderson who was the
principal of Paceson High in Winston-Salem taught at the Institute and
the late H.E. Brown who was the principal at Aiken High School, those
were the veteran principals. They were well respected. They taught at
the Principal Institute at North Carolina Central and that is where I
learned from guys like that. I knew how to handle a situation and they
were not afraid to speak up and tell you or correct you when you were
wrong. They weren't afraid to do it and Mr. Brown when he would leave
and go places he would take me with him. When Mr. Vance would go places
he would take me with him and when I was just a classroom teacher back
in those days, principals did a lot of commencement speaking. You
probably don't remember that far back but when Mr. Vance would speak he
would always take me to ride along with him and I was just a classroom
teacher. I was not teaching for him but he had that much confidence in
me and he saw that I possibly had the potential so he took me along with
him and that is how I met
Page 8
principals across the
state when I was going to North Carolina Central. I met a lot of Black
principals and I knew a lot of them.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Transportation. How did you deal with the transportation at both schools?
Did you have buses?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, we had buses but I must say now you might not believe this but at
McIver High School, I don't recall the exact number of buses that I had
but I guess fifteen or sixteen buses. I didn't have an assistant
principal.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
You didn't have anybody to help you?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I didn't have an assistant principal. I only had a secretary.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How many teachers did you have there?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I guess I had forty-some. But I didn't have any assistant principals at
all. I had a person that I called my assistant principal but he had a
full teaching assignment. He couldn't help me and so I handled buses
myself. I was on the campus when the buses came and I was on campus when
the buses left you know unless I was off campus. Then when I came to
Jordan Sellis in 1965, I didn't have a full-time assistant principal
then and I had grades 7-12 and I had 1200 more kids and I had a
part-time assistant principal. He taught mathematics a half day and was
my assistant principal a half day. Now he helped me out with the buses.
And that was about the extent of what he did. He taught in the morning
and I had to deal with the discipline in the morning so he couldn't help
me that much so things have changed. We learned how to do things because
you didn't have help. You learned how to short circuit things that you
needed to short circuit because you had to-- not by choice but by
desire. You had to because you did not have the help. I had a secretary
but not a full-time assistant principal. And that stayed that way the
five years that I was there until I became a principal at Cummings High
School. Then I had a full-time assistant principal, that's all I had
then.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
You just learn to do what you have to do. Someone was telling me that
they had to pay the down payment on their yellow buses. Did you have to
do that?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
No, no. I take that back. When I went to Littleton as principal they had
a new activity bus that they had purchased the year before I got there.
The teachers made contributions to purchase the bus with the
understanding that money would be raised and they would be reimbursed.
And so we had to raise money to pay the teachers back. The bus was there
when I got there, the brand new bus but it was paid for that way and I
had just followed the commitment that was made
Page 9
by my
predecessor as to how the teachers received that bus.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
How did you utilize funds? Where did you get your monies from?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
We had fund raisers. Back in those days it was understood that you had
fund raisers and I had been against it all along. I just wasn't for fund
raising but I did as little for that as I could do.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
But did you need it for survival?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, because you had some obligations. You had your bills, you had your
kids having to make trips and stuff like that. You had no choice. And
when I came to Burlington Jordan Sellis didn't have an activity bus and
the Superintendent had given the school an old school bus.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you think it was because of the color of the bus or because the bus
was not new?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, it was the idea that the bus was painted black and that was a
symbolism. I guess they thought that they were being put down or for
whatever reason. They refused to buy it but I can remember very vividly
Williams High School had a brand new activity bus but we could not use
it. Our kids were going to Greensboro to play for the State Championship
in basketball and the bus gave out with us between here and Greensboro.
So I called the Assistant Superintendent at that time and he told me to
call the principal and ask him if we could use his bus to go pick the
kids up. He talked with the coach and the coach said no, we could not
use the bus so then the Assistant Superintendent told me to call
maintenance and so I called maintenance. They said the only thing that
we have is a truck that we could put some sides on and go get the kids.
I knew that that would not work so I had to rent a bus from Moore
Brothers out of High Point to come and pick our kids up to take them to
Greensboro. Of course we had to pay what we called "deadheading" at that
time. Aas we were moving toward integration we had reached a point that
we could not get schools to play us. There was not a single school in
Alamance County that would play us in football.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Why?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Because they had integrated and they refused to play Black high schools.
Even Williams High School which is right here in the school system
refused to play us. So we went all the way down to, boys who played
basketball, Little Washington, North Carolina to play basketball. We
went as far as South Carolina to play football. They were the only
places because schools all around us had integrated.
Page 10
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Why had your school not integrated?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, the Superintendent had a plan for integration and his plan worked
extremely well I thought. He integrated the grade by the year--one grade
a year. And at that time the county schools were consolidated and when
they were building the high school they were consolidating. But the
Burlington City School System I had personally took the 7th grade and
then the next year the 8th grade, then the next year the 9th grade and
the following year we got the new high school. Then we went to the new
high school.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Those were some of those trying years.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That is correct and I might hasten to add that as I recall when the
Blacks were leaving the old Black school going to the new integrated
school they literally destroyed the Black school but this did not
happen. The kids did not destroy the school. It was open the next year
as a 9th grade center and consequently it continued to be used as a 9th
grade center.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What do you attribute the difference in leaving the building?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, because we talked to the kids and we told them that the school
would be used by their brothers and sisters and why destroy the school.
They should be able to enjoy the same comfort that they enjoyed and by
talking with the kids and what have you. They listened to us and they
did not do it.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did the funds change the amount of funds and the way you were issued your
funds after desegregation?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, because as I said, I did not have a full-time assistant principal
and I did have after integration. I did not have an activity bus and I
got an activity bus when we integrated.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about the materials?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, we were not hurting as far as supplies but I'm sure that was a
difference but having been segregated its hard to say what you would
lose and not lose because you don't know. But I do know there were some
differences. At that time I had only two coaches and I had football,
basketball, track and everything and that is all I had.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you believe in a good athletic program too.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
We had a good athletic program. As I said we won the State Championship
in basketball. So we had a good program and that's all we had. So I
would wager that they had
Page 11
more coaches than that
at the school across town, but I can't swear to it.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I'm sure.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I'm sure of that but those were the kinds of things that we…
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about cafeteria management? Was there a difference in how much
authority you had over the cafeteria?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, we had complete authority over the caferteria as far as the
supervision. When I came to Burlington we were way ahead of a lot of
school systems I had worked for prior to coming here because we had
written evaluations because I had never been in any school system where
we had any type of evaluation. So we had that and the cafeteria was
under the principal's supervision but we didn't make food purchases or
anything because we had a system-wide cafeteria manager so that worked
that way. The only thing I was responsible for was scheduling a kid in
and out of the cafeteria.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you have anything to do with the monies?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
They all went through central office. And that is true today.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What about buildings and grounds?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Well, the buildings and grounds were neatly maintained but there again I
attribute that to the principal. I expected it to be clean and every
custodial personnel that has worked for me has had a job assigned to him
so I knew who was responsible for what area. I didn't have any person
going to this person and saying, this is not clean or the grounds are
not being kept or what have you. I knew who was responsible.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
When you were at McIver, did you have anyone from central maintenance to
take care of the grounds or did you just have to make sure that it was
done.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
No, as a matter of fact, as I recall that was done by my staff which I
had one male janitor, maybe a maid but there again we didn't have a lawn
mower, we didn't have any grass to cut because we didn't have that much
of a campus.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
But you kept it neat and it was your decision how it was maintained.
What about the school and the community and the relationship in the
community especially back there in
Page 12
Halifax
County.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
It meant a whole lot to the community. We provided everything that we
could possibly provide and I tried to make the school open to the
community from funerals to whatever we had it at the school. Then there
was an Episcopal Church there. They were without a rector there and the
three years that I was there, I served that church as a lay reader for
three years. Every Sunday in the month except one and we had a rector
from a White church to come in and serve the community once a month. So
we had good community support as far as having community support. I feel
very strongly about that. Even until today. This is one of the things
that I am happy to say I was able to do. Ssome things at Cummings
because I made the parents responsible for… for instance I don't ask a
teacher to serve on any athletic event just to collect tickets, to sell
tickets, to work at concession stands, to work in the bleachers. The
parents, that is there responsibility. I left there this past June, the
parents handled the concessions, they sold tickets, they collected
tickets, whatever they had to do with athletics they did. And I never
had to ask a teacher to sell a ticket. I did encourage teachers now to
attend athletic events but attend with the responsibility like
supervising bleachers or supervising in the stands or the press box.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Well, do you think this had an effect on your teachers?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Sure, there is no question in my mind about that.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
It helped teachers to maintain status.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
There moral and status. Sure and I would suspect they would resent it
having to do it today but they realize that it is a new ball game.
Tthere again that's why I expect teaching because I relieved you from
all these things you discredit as your responsibility. And we did it,
the administrators, the three of us did it. It was hard because for
twenty years I ate in fifteen minutes.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And now you still eat fast, I bet. You still eat fast.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's right because the three of us we ate between lunches and there are
only fifteen minutes between lunches. Some days if you have a problem
you don't get a chance to eat at all.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So you knew all the children didn't you?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Basically all of them.
Page 13
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
But you would see them.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's right. And of course you know the ones you get to know first.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Oh, sure! How much administrative power or control do you feel that you
had at both places?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I think the principal is a very powerful person if he handles himself
properly. And if he can get the respect that the position calls for he
is a very powerful person. I think that is evidenced in the way some of
the Superintendents are trying to go about now relieving principals of
some of the power by moving principals around. That is the method of
diluting the power. That is all that is. Now I've been fortunate that I
haven't had to contend with that kind of stuff in the school system.
I've been in the school system for twenty-six years and this is the
third position that I've been in.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Did you choose to come to the central office?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yes, the Superintendent came to my office and told me that he had a
vacancy and he asked if I would be interested and I was. I felt to be
perfectly honest with you that I had shot my authority as a principal
and I didn't see us as losing ground but I didn't know anything else
that I could have done that I had not achieved while I was there.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And you wanted to go out while…
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That is right. And I had had one State Championship in football, played
for another State Championship in football, played for State
Championship in basketball, two championships in track, I've taken a
group of kids to Russia and I 've had two State Teachers of the Year,
one National Teacher of the Year, a number of science winners and of
course last year I was one of the three finalists in the State for
Principal of the Year so I didn't know anything else. I had served as a
County Commissioner, you name it and I've done it.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
You have a whole wall and box full of awards. The wall is not even large
enough for them all.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I just don't know of anything else that I could have accomplished. So I
felt that this was the time for me to move out and I feel that the
school wasn't downgraded or didn't have the respect or what have you.
That wasn't it at all. And I have to say Dr. Tab Scott, one of those
chairmen on the State Board of Education, she called me up one night and
she said, J.E. I've got to hand it to you. You saved us. People were
under the impression that we were going to come up on the low end
because of the high minority ratio but
Page 14
I made a
statement to my teachers and they knew this that we are going to teach
them I don't care if they're green. We're going to teach them. And I
want the teachers to understand that I expect you to teach I don't care
if they're green and so I didn't have the situation with the hangups.
They didn't come to me with those kinds of things. Another thing that
was the expectation I had with the teachers and the same thing with the
parents. They knew what I expected as far as discipline. They knew. The
kids knew you weren't going to walk the halls. I don't care who you are,
you aren't going to walk the halls. The kids knew that I expected them
to be in the classroom and the teachers knew that I expected them to be
in the classroom. Another thing that has been my philosophy and that is
I've tried to learn from mistakes I've seen other principals make. All
of our staff members were maid service so the teachers knew they
couldn't complain because they were in charge and when I say they were
in charge, they were responsible at faculty meetings. For instance, we
would sit down and we operated the school on a management team concept.
We would sit down and map out everything. We met once a month but we had
a theme and our theme was when we opened our school we created a climate
for maximum learning. That was the theme and everything centered around
that. If there was a problem dealing with a group, next month, you, you,
you and you are responsible for doing all the research and presenting it
to the faculty and some of the teachers take a different view when they
have to stand up and preside but that is the way we did it. In fact, I
never called a faculty meeting where I go in and stand in the door. That
is ridiculous. They had a theme to develop.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And you continued that all the years that you were there? That every
faculty meeting was a learning experience.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
It was a learning experience for the teachers. Designed by the teachers.
Now that didn't preclude me from having some special comments of some
things I had to say about some things but I was not there to hold them
for hour to hour listening to me. And there were times when I would have
faculty meeting that the teachers would get so involved. My wife would
say to me, "You kept the teachers over there that long?" They kept
themselves.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
They kept themselves. Well, how do you think the desegregation schools
affected your role as a principal?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I don't think it affected my role any differently as principal. I just
looked at it as another opportunity to try to educate boys and girls.
But as far as having a direct effect on them, I don't know that it did.
I would say that I think that in some situations we have profited
tremendously by it and I think in other situations we may have been hurt
by desegregation. Let me clarify that. It is disturbing to me to see the
powerful band that I had as
Page 15
principal of an all
Black high school and ended up with a band now with just a handful of
Black students. That disturbs me. And of course, I realize, and I have
to be honest and say this, it has to do with the late issue of the
person that has done it. And I don't understand that however, I think
that the parents are going to have to be concerned to ask the question
why rather than wait for somebody to fix it for them because it is not
easy to be fixed but I think if parents are inquisitive enough to ask
the question why then some of the things can fix themselves. So that is
what I mean when I say I think it is a good thing that has happened
because there is no question in my mind as to who will suffer but they
were not equal. They were separate but they were not equal. I think now
that the schools are equal in that sense as far the opportunity being
available. They are unequal in the kids being made aware and made to
feel, I'll put it that way, that they are an important part of this
operation, and I have to clarify this too because that is an exception,
because some kids in the community that are for separating and there are
others and I think that is where the leadership comes in where we have
tried to set the climate for getting the right focus.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So the teachers are still the key. When you are all Black, I have the
philosophy that it is so bad because the Black teachers could push the
Black children and say things to them and push them along but you just
think the good teachers would do that no matter what.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Let's face it, when we were all Black you could call assembly and say to
the kids basically what needed to be said to give them a shot of
adrenaline but you can't do that now and the only institution that we
have left right now and I hate to say this but they have fallen
tremendously and that is the Black church. They just are not living up
to what I think they ought to be doing. That is the only place that we
can speak to the issue.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What did you enjoy most about your job?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
What I enjoyed most about my job is meeting people and seeing people
achieve. I've had a very successful principalship. Very successful
principalship. This is not being cocky at least that is not my style, I
would say few principals can boast of the successes I have had. I was
appointed County Commissioner and then ran for County Commissioner and
during the primary lead the ticket then lost in the primary because it
became a racial situation. The people put out a lot of negative
literature and I ended up going to court, having a heart attack, and of
course they were found guilty for putting the literature out. One of
them happened to be on the City Council. The thing that disturbed me
most about that was I couldn't believe anybody could dislike me that
much because I thought I had done everything
Page 16
humanly possible to make it good.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
But then it wasn't really you anyway. But then you wanted to think--you
know that you are a good person and you have done all you can and then
for someone to say something about you was really their problem. I'm
sure that is what you came to realize was--that it was really their
problem.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
And yet, what I suffered with that heart attack. The editor said that he
had never seen such a response to it. He came to me and said he had to
publish something because the people were worried.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
The people wanted to know how you were doing. You touched so many
lives--all these children and their children, and their children…
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
But then again, it's the people and the achievement that I have seen and
hopefully I've paved a new road.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What did you consider the major problem of the principalship?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
The major problem I see with the principalship is the politics of the
principalship today and the politics involved in the education of
children. That was probably the most frustrating to me because I've had
a chance to be a principal but the politics today is just not what
principals like to see. For example, now they're talking about this
probably will be the last year of tenure for principals. And during my
many years of principalship tenure has never phased me because I want to
feel that I am doing a good job. It's never been problem with me but I'm
not naive enough to think that there are some good people that have lost
their jobs because of politics.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That's right--because of politics.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
So those are some concerns that I have and then I have not been afraid to
move marginal people after trying to get as much help as much help as I
knew how. In all my years as administrator I've only been through one
professional relief and I never had to go to court on a teacher and
there again, I think that I have been able to talk to teachers and say
what is in your best interest is what is in our best interest.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
It cancels them out.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's right. That is the best way to go and in ninety percent of the
cases I only had one that refused to go that way.
Page 17
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
They should have done what you suggested in the first place.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Now if you had to--now we know that back in 1964 there were over 200
Black high school principals. Last year there were 41 and some of them
were alternative school principals. If you knew of a Black person that
aspired to be a principal of a high school, what advice would you give
them.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
If that is his or her aspiration, I would continue to do so but I think
the thing that disturbs me today and I see this happening to so many
young Black aspired administrators. They don't even have a job
description. That would be the first thing that I would want from
someone. He's going to have to give me a job description. Every
assistant principal that taught for me had a job description because
what has happened is once you go through an interview then they want to
talk with you about curriculum, they want to talk about exceptionalities
and what have you and your experience is in buses and discipline.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That's right.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
How are you going to be effective in an interview process when your
experience hasn't been there in the beginning. And that's by desire.
There is nothing mystic about that and I've had to talk to some of the
young people about that. My advice to promising young administrators,
the first thing is sit down with your principal and let your principal
know that you are interested in learning as much as you possibly can
about principalship Not just interested in the three B's, books, buses,
and buses. In order for me to do this I'm willing to take the courses
and I want to do what you suggest I might do. But I want to know the
program and I want you to put it in writing what you expect of me
because a lot of people don't even know what is expected of them. Then
when you come in for an interview then they want to talk to you about
curriculum, exceptionalities, new research in education. You don't have
that kind of training and yet you have been an assistant principal for
years. So when a person comes in to me he's going to get a job
description from me and I'll tell him that I'm going to hold him to it.
This is your job description and color has nothing to do with it but
this is just what I expect of you.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you think it would be more difficult for a Black person to become a
principal of a high school in North Carolina.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I think it is going to become increasingly more difficult because I
think, to answer your question, yes, I really do unless he shows that he
is very sharp and a very
Page 18
articulate person and has
shown or has demonstrated these qualities that I have talked about. And
I have talked about curriculum, management and what have you. For
example, I have one assistant principal handling the instructional
budget and another assistant principal handling the operational
budget.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
They need to learn that. I said I'm going to tell you right now if you
are scared I'm looking for me another one because you know what the
budget is in the beginning. But I never had that problem.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you think those who are aspiring should try to find mentors. You were
blessed with mentors.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
And not only that, you'de be surprised at the number of principals that I
have shared the tears with. But you know I've been fortunate I've been
principal since 1977 So I've had a chance to learn from some of the best
minds in the country.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
So that is still the key to it.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's it. My point is and you've got to be willing to make these
sacrifices because you might rather be out playing golf but you are
going to have to make those sacrifices. When I came back to my job in
the Fall the teachers knew that I had something new for them. They
didn't have to hear me rehashing the same old stuff that they heard five
years ago. They knew I had one of the newer trends. This what I used to
tell my people all the time. Study the trends. We are going to be on the
cutting edge of what is going on in education. This is where we are
going to be. Because as you well know, they are going to put in the
Writing Program across the state. Jeff Hunt came to Cummings High School
in his helicopter and this is the Writing Program at Cummings High
School. You've got to aspire to be--to learn again. You've got to be a
student again. When I went to Cummings, they saw me in one light--a
disciplinarian, that's all. They didn't see me as an instructional
leader but I wanted them to know that I had been an instructional leader
before I came over here. The first newsletter we published in high
school. Now they are publishing it everywhere. They took out a
newsletter and carried it out to the NCAE. The first writing program was
started at Jordan Sellis. The former superintendent sent every principal
in the school system to Jordan Sellis to see how we were teaching them
to read. All came except one. He didn't come but he didn't stay here as
principal too long either.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
He headed up.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
But my point is, I had to teach, we had the reading program, and then
later the program became validated as a national program. It changed
some things. They had
Page 19
someone from California come
here and put it together and we got more money from a grant. And people
can't forget those things. They can't forget--they may try too. Just
like the other day I told the principals here that I'm here to make a
difference. I want to make your job as powerful as I can and this is
what I am proposing putting together--a staff development program
system-wide. I'm outlining the whole thing with the superintendent. I've
already called Al's restaurant for June 10th. I told them to fix a fruit
tray because we have to become more health conscious. This is a
challenge. I told the Superintendent, I want you in the workshop because
I want all the principals in there also. I'm going to have about
thirty-five.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
It seems like the J.A. Freeman way is excellence.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I'm glad you said that. That has been our theme for years. If you go to
Cummings high school today or go to some of these people right here in
this building and ask what B.O.J. is everyone will tell you what it is.
Bundle of joy. I want it done right and I don't mind saying this to
you--we had a young lady that I inherited. She was secretary for the
assistant superintendent before I came. Her typing was terrible.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you have any problems speaking to the issues? If something is not
right, you have no problems with straightening this out.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
If you go back with one of my old handbooks The most widely used one they
use is called a "scape goat." The one that should be used the most and
is the least used is "confrontation". People don't want to confront
people.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
They do not want to do that. That's what I call "nipping it in the
bud."
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's right. You have to confront people. She said, I know that we can
work together and I listened and I said I want it right. I know my
penmanship is poor but if written by me that was not typed.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That was one of the things that impressed me with your response. You had
yours typed. Some of them had them typed but most of them were hand
written and I know that a lot of them are retired but some people do not
like for anything to come out of their office unless it is absolutely
right.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I don't recall what was wrong but those are some of the quirks that I had
and the teachers know that. If you don't try then you don't teach in
that school. They know that and just like I was telling the secretary,
look you
Page 20
know the rules and the teachers know the
rules so don't you bring it to me. This is your job and I expect you to
do it. Now if you have something to say, now you say something to the
teacher but don't come to me with it. You know what you are supposed to
do and I know what you're supposed to do and the teachers know. But
everyone of them are older, they've worked with me and there are some
teachers over there today that started teaching with me when I came here
in 1965, and there are some people over there that quit when I left.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
I know it wouldn't be the same.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
This is what some of the people feel and its so frustrating to me because
of different philosophy but there's nothing wrong with that but a smart
person never goes into a situation making wholesale changes. I learned
when I went overseas and landed at Camp Drake in Tokyo. The guys over
there on R & R told us, now if you want to be a hero they will
leave you but if you listen to the First Sargents, they'll tell you how
to get back home. So what I'm saying is you have to listen to some of
these people because some of these old teachers around here can tell you
a few things.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
And they know what goes around comes around.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
I've seen it go around three or four different times.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
What do you think is your motto?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
My motto for what?
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
For life. For success.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Seeing people grow through life experiences, whether it is a child or
whether it is a teacher. That's what I enjoy. People--I have tried--you
take Bob Earle that you are going to see. Bob Earle was good to me. I
did my first teaching under him and to this day I get Bob Earle a pass
because he loves sports, I give him a pass to all football games, all
basketball games and even though he goes asleep by the time he gets in
the car, Bob is in his eightys, I pick Bob up and I carry him with me
and what have you. He loves me to death. If he thinks something is wrong
with me, he's going to find out what is wrong with me. That's the kind
of thing because Bob is good to me, Mr. Brown is deceased now, Mr. Bass
is deceased now, but those people I don't forget.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Mr. George Foxwell is training under Mr. Brown too.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
That's exactly right. I know George very well. George Foxwell--matter of
fact I had a chance to become the assistant principal before George got
that bid when Mr. Brown
Page 21
first went there. I didn't
know that you knew George Foxwell.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Yeh, I'm from Edenton.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Oh, you're from Edenton. You know some Walkers down there. They used to
own a cleaners.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Yeh, Clenon Walker and his wife.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
One of the girls taught with me down in Whiteville. That's how I knew the
Walkers.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Do you know Golden Frinks?
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Yeh, I know Golden Frinks.
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
That's my dad. He was with the marching and the Civil Rights and all of
that.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Golden Frinks, yes, yes, I was trying to associate that name. How did you
get to the Western part of the state?
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Well, what happened was when I married and moved to Greensboro. I taught
the first three years in Raleigh, then I married Lucian Wells over in
Greensboro. So I stayed with teaching in Greensboro for 17 years and the
opportunity came for me to go to the central office in Statesville so I
moved over to Statesville.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Do you know Sam Kennington?
GOLDIE F. WELLS:
Yeh, I know Sam.
JOHNNY A. FREEMAN:
Sam Kennington taught for me. Sam taught distributive education for
me.