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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview Q-0094, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
Lillian Taylor Lyons was born and raised in Oxford, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century. Lyons begins her interview by describing her family history, reaching back to her parents' experiences in Virginia and North Carolina. Her father was born enslaved in 1850 and accompanied his master with the Confederate army during the Civil War, while her mother was born just on the cusp of the Civil War and, according to Lyons, was not enslaved. After briefly explaining her father's work as an expert carpenter, Lyons shifts to a discussion of her mother's education in a school for African American children in Granville County, North Carolina, which was run by white Canadians following the Civil War. Education was important in Lyons' family, and she describes in some detail how she and her siblings all went to the Mary Potter school in Oxford. Following her own graduation in 1919, Lyons attended college and became a school teacher. In addition to describing her family history, her education, and her work as a teacher, Lyons devotes considerable attention to a discussion of race relations, particularly as it related to skin tone, in Oxford. Oxford was especially "forward-looking" in its views on race relations, as evidenced by the high value placed on African American education, according to Lyons. Researchers interested in the local history of Granville County will find the final third of the interview particularly useful for Lyons' extensive comments on Granville County families and their interactions.
Born and raised in Oxford, North Carolina, in the early twentieth century, Lillian Taylor Lyons discusses her family history, her education, and her career as a teacher. Lyons also speaks at length about race relations in Oxford, arguing that Oxford was especially "forward-looking" in comparison to other southern communities.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Today is Sunday, September 11, 1994. I'm visiting with Mrs. Lillian Taylor Lyons. The address is 210 Alexander Avenue. Mrs. Lyons has been living here all her childhood until she went off to school, to college. Mrs. Lyons, tell me about your childhood and what was going on in your life as you went along in school.
Well, I started school at five and a half years old. I was carried by my
first grade teacher, Mrs. Annie Lassiter, who lived two doors from me,
down the street from me. The school building was located on Orange
Street in the two hundred block. It is now the home of a retired
teacher, Mr. Charles Gregory, who was born in Oxford and taught here
through the years.
Mrs. Lyons, how did you get back and forth to school when you was going to school?
I walked. It was a distance of approximately a mile. When I was late, I ran all the way.
You say you ran all the way to school. Was there other brothers and sisters that was going with you to school, or were you going by yourself?
I was going by myself. My brother, Leonard Taylor, was seven years older than me, and he was in Mary Potter High School at that time. The buildings were in the vicinity of McClanahan Street and Lanier Avenue.
Did you enjoy going to school?
I loved school because I knew how to read and write when I entered school.
What grade was your last grade at Orange Street School, at Mr. Gregory's house, or the school that was in the back of the house? Explain to me where the school was.
The school building was on the corner of Orange Street and—.
Piedmont.
No, that's not Piedmont, is it?
Mrs. Lyons, what grade did you leave the Orange Street School?
I left at the end of sixth grade and went to Mary Potter, which was the day and boarding school. Mary Potter was located, the buildings were located on the property from Lanier Street and McClanahan Street.
What year were you born?
I was born November 18, 1902.
So what age would you be today?
As of today, I'm two weeks from my ninety-second, I'm two months from my ninety-second birthday.
Could you tell me about your parents and their affiliation with Oxford. Was both of your parents born in Oxford?
My father was born in Sudan, Virginia, near Clarksville. He was born on April 9, 1850. My mother was born where I live now, at 210 Alexander Avenue, on December 22, 1960, the daughter of Charles Lewis and Lucinda Gregory Lewis.
You say your mother was born in 1960. I think your mother was born 1860?
Eighteen and sixty.
OK. And how long the land has been in your family, on your mother's side?
The land has been in the family since between 1859 and 1860.
1859. Tell us a little about your mother and father, far as wanting you and your sisters and brothers to get a good education.
My mother worked part of the time in New Jersey. That was during the [light time] and the times of my brother, Leonard Taylor, who became Dr. Leonard A. Taylor, a dentist. There were eight children. The oldest was Edgar Taylor, Lucy Taylor, [Lattie] Taylor, Blanche, Winifred, [Schotia], Leonard, and me.
So what did your father do? And what did he contribute to raising y'all and how he wanted y'all to have a decent education? What kind of work did he do?
My father was a carpenter? He worked at various jobs during my early years in Granville and Vance, the surrounding counties. In later years, by the time I was in fifth and sixth grade, he was working at the Oxford Orphanage, which was three blocks up the street from us. The orphanage is still in operation and is run by the Masons of North Carolina. Of course, I mean the white Masons of North Carolina. There was also a Negro orphanage in Oxford at the same time. That was located about two miles from my house down in the lower Raleigh Street area.
Could your father read and write?
My father could read a little bit and write a little bit, but he became
very proficient without it. In latter years, he and three other Negroes
were working very proficiently. Mr. Ed Tyler, Mr. William Alston and my
father made all of the work at the carpenters' shop at the white
orphanage up the street two blocks from my house. They
Did you ever know your father, your grandfather and grandmother on your father's side?
No, I didn't know them, but I did know my Aunt Jane and Uncle John [Blanks]. They lived in what was Sudan, Virginia, a part of the Clarksville, Virginia area. And the train ran from—the railroad—. The train ran from Durham to [Keysville] and passed right by my house. And we used to travel over to Virginia to visit my Aunt Jane and Uncle Johnny [Blanks].
OK, let's talk about your mother. Did you ever know, on your mother's side, your grandmother and your grandfather?
Yes, I knew Grandma. Grandma was born in Granville County near where we live now. She was the daughter of Charles Lewis and Lucinda Gregory Lewis. My grandfather worked at the dispensary. I imagine that was the distribution of the corn liquor that was being made in the county. And my grandmother worked in the orphanage up the street from me.
Which one of your grandparents on your mother's side could read and write, your grandfather or your grandmother?
Both of them could read and write.
On your mother's side, how old was your mother when she passed? And what year?
My mother died in October, 18 and—my mother was born November 22,
Did she have any experience with slavery? Or did her mother or father have experience with it?
Both of my parents had—my mother didn't have any experience with slavery, but my father did. My father's master was John Lyle Taylor, who went to war during the Civil War and my father went with his master, as I mentioned before, and he was at Appomattox Courthouse when Lee surrendered to—.
Was he with—does his name come from the Taylor's plantation, or the slave owner, Mr. Taylor that owned him? Where did he get Taylor from, or that was his name from his father before?
That was his name from his father. His father was John Taylor and his mother was Mary Puryear Taylor.
Now, we are talking about your mother's father and grandfather. Which one of your mother's parents that experienced slavery that was not treated right, or how was they treated? Or was they free?
My mother was—they had an interesting life. There was no slavery. My mother was born here at the same spot where I was born. And they had no experience with slavery because my mother went to school here and her teachers were Canadians, white people who had come down from the north, from Canada, to teach the Negro children after the end of the war. The place where my mother attended school was near where the site of the graded school was, where I attended.
Who was her principal? Was Rutherford Pattilla, or Dr. Patilla her principal?
No, I can't remember. Mr. Pattilla was principal of the graded school that I attended, Mr. Walter Pattilla. He left the graded school in 1914, the same year that I graduated from elementary school and entered Mary Potter. My brother had attended the graded school and he graduated from Mary Potter in 1914 and went on to what was Biddle University in Charlotte at that time. The name of the university is now Johnson C. Smith University, the Presbyterian institution.
How far did all of your sisters and brothers go? Did all of y'all get to the eighth grade?
My brother Leonard finished Mary Potter in 1914 and went to Biddle University, which is now Johnson C. Smith University. And my sister Winifred went to St. Augustine's College in Raleigh. She was in school with the Gibson sisters that have been in the national newspapers recently and are still living. They are both over a hundred years old.
Did any more of your sisters and brothers finish high school? Everybody finish high school?
All of them finished school at Mary Potter.
What was your life like growing up as a kid in the community? Give me some ideas about the community and your neighbors and the people in the community, how close-knit you all were and you had close families and everybody worked together.
It was a very close neighborhood. The property on the street where I lived was owned by two families, the Hicks family and the Lassiter family. Mrs. Lassiter and Mrs. Hicks were sisters and their children grew up and went away to school just as my sisters and brothers did.
Who were some of the outsanding people in the community that went around helping people? If you needed them, you always could depend on them.
We had an orphanage in Oxford at that time, which was supported by the Masons. Dr. Pattilla, who was principal of the graded school when I finished, his father was a Baptist minister and also taught school. The house where Professor Patilla was born is still in erection and in good condition on Raleigh Street in Oxford.
Whereabout on Raleigh Street? Give me an idea what vicinity the house is—.
It's in a thickly-settled, all-Negro vicinity. All of the Negroes around owned their own homes, then, and other businesses now.
Can you tell me something about your church you went to and what role your mother and father and how close-knit y'all were to the church?
We were—my parents—I grew up in St. Peters Methodist Church.
Where was that church located at when you grew up?
It was on Orange Street—.
And Hillsborough?
On Hillsborough Street in the 200 block. And it was a part of the North Carolina Methodist conference, which meant that we had several different ministers during my lifetime: Reverend [Newsome], Reverend Baxter, Reverend Cook, who was uncle of Miss Annie Lassiter who had taught me. He went to Harvard University in Massachusetts. He has one daughter living in North Carolina now in the Raleigh area, but I haven't kept in touch with her.
Were your mother or your father a Sunday School teacher or were your
My mother and father were both very close. Practically every Sunday at the end of the sermon, my daddy had to get up and make his speeches. Course, some people in the church probably got tired of listening to him. But Papa didn't sit down until he felt like it. He was typical Richmond Taylor—at church, in the community and in the town, and very well-known. Both him and my mother.
Did y'all walk to church and walk back?
We walked to church. All of my life we didn't—it was just about a mile away from us, so it wasn't—we had no inconvenience from attending church. I am now a member of the same congregation, St. Peters United Methodist Church. I am the oldest member of the church as of this date.
And how old are you?
I am ninety—I will be ninety-two years old on the eighteenth of November, which is a month away.
What year did you finish Mary Potter?
I finished Mary Potter in 19 and 19.
And what college did you go to after finishing Mary Potter?
During the summer of 19 and 19, they had had summer school classes for teachers and prospective teachers. I attended the summer school classes at Mary Potter. They were taught by Professor—I can't think of his first name now—Professor Cozart. And they gave an examination at the end of the six-week summer school. I was only eighteen years old, but I took the examination and passed it and got a teacher's certificate.
Did you use it before you went off to college?
Yes, I—the summer of 1919 when I finished Mary Potter, I went to A&T University to summer school. One of the next-door neighbors who grew up with me, Mrs. Ruth Hicks—she was Miss Ruth Hicks—she was a winter student at Bennett College, but they had summer school at A&T College. And I went to summer school the same summer. And, as I said before, I had passed the examination that they gave at the end of the session in Oxford.
And I—my mother consented and I was the only eight—I wasn't even eighteen at that time, because that was in September and my birthday was in November. So I went to [Badin], North Carolina. Mrs. Payne, who was Miss Ruth Hicks, she had applied at [Badin] and also she was a student at Bennett College in Greensboro, our Methodist church college. And she was a—she had filed an application at [Badin] and also in Oxford. And she got the—was accepted at both places.
So, my mother was in New Jersey visiting my older sisters at the time, and I called my mother and asked permission. So, I went to [Badin] at seventeen years old and started teaching. And today, I have friends living in the Philadelphia area whose parents were living in the [Badin] area at that time. [Badin] was near [Leachville], which was the processing area for cotton goods and materials.
Mrs. Lyons, if your mother could read and write, therefore—and your grandparents was in slavery—somewhere your mother and father, or your mother or your father had some white in them, or they was—either worked in the house—they was house slaves and they wasn't field slaves to learn how to read and write at their age. Which one of your mother or father do you think?
Well, as I said before, my father grew up in Virginia, but my mother went
to
Could you explain to me why Canadians came to Oxford, how they got here. Were they seminary people of the church? Were they affiliated with the church?
I'm not quite clear, but they—there were several of them in the area, because Miss—there was a Miss Hawkins who was a white woman that was working at the black orphanage that was in Oxford at the same time. And they were a part of the group of whites who came south to teach the Negroes after slavery. There are several institutions in different parts of the south. I am now connected with Penn Center in Paris Island, South Carolina, that was operated by Canadians who came south to work for Negroes, work in the Negro schools and other various industries.
What did the whites in this town thought about outsiders coming in teaching? Were they staying in the white people's homes, or were they staying in the black people's homes?
They stayed in white homes, I'm sure. Relations have always been good in
Oxford, all my life, between blacks and whites. They are at the worst
point now. I was just saying to—last week, at the podiatrist's office, I
ran into Mrs. Katherine Royster—and I was saying to her that Oxford
isn't, from several standpoints, isn't the same as far as relationships
between Negroes and whites. They're not as good as they were back
fifteen
Mrs. Lyons, I have done research in Oxford on schools, and there are approximately sixty or seventy schools for blacks from the first to the fifth, or from the first to the fourth or third grade. Therefore, I think that each black back in the early 1900s did have the opportunity to learn how to read and write. Can you explain to me why this county was so dedicated in trying to educate their people?
Well, it was probably a attitude that developed way before my time or your time, before each of us were born, and before our parents were born, that there have always been good relations. All of my life, Negroes and whites have always worked together. Negroes worked in white people's homes. But they—they went to separate schools, of course, but there's other ways been good relationships.
It was just in the late years that such things as the, as the Penn—I can't remember the name of the relationships. But the tobacco factories and other industries developed in Oxford, and Negroes and whites have always worked in the industries in Oxford, the tobacco industry and carpentry work, electricians and what-have-you. Oxford has always been a forward-looking town.
Mrs. Lyons, I have looked into some history and how did this town attract doctors like Dr. Bowie and doctors back in the early 1900s where other communities in the south didn't have a black doctor before the early '20s or '30s? We had black dentists and four or five black doctors in this town in the early 1900s.
Well, I'm sure a lot of that was due to the fact that Dr. and Mrs. Shaw, who were president, and the teachers who came to—Dr. Shaw's wife came from Pennsylvania down here to work. And there has always been [intermingling] and relationships in education and industries in Oxford all of my life. The industries have always existed in Oxford, even the tobacco industry, because tobacco grew in the county. But other industries—now, as of now, Revlon, the big cosmetic industry is one of the biggest industries in Oxford, and there have always been good relationships between Negroes and blacks. Of course, there was prejudice and it still is. It's more prevalent now than it was a few years ago.
Can you tell me about the teachers that went to school and they finished the eighth grade and they started teaching and some of them did a very good job in these schools throughout the county? How was they picked? Or why did they work so hard trying to educate in the community until they could go to summer school and learn?
Well, getting a teacher's certificate—some of—a lot of them who were in eighth grade and going away to Shaw University and to Bennett College. There were always plenty of teachers in Granville County because they were smart, intelligent, and they had gotten good backgrounds in Oxford at Mary Potter and they went to summer school at Shaw University, in Charlotte, and Bennett College, summer school at A&T University.
And North Carolina Central, too?
And North Carolina Central University that was started by Dr. James
Shepherd. And members of those families are still in education. And at
present time, we have black doctors and dentists here. We have blocks of
property that has entirely black
Was Miss Minnie Lyons born in Oxford and reared in Oxford?
Yes, she was born—and she was my husband's cousin. She was born up in the Berea community of Oxford, that's north of Oxford about ten miles. It's the north of Oxford. She was born there.
So, we have always had—Negroes—Oxford has always been a very progressive town and Negroes worked hard, but they worked in the factories and every place else they could get a job and they learned all the trades. And it has grown to—even now, there are streets in Oxford where only white people lived. Now you can buy a house anywhere in Oxford. There are no restricted neighborhoods. You can buy a house in any section or district in Oxford. All you need is the money to pay for it.
Do you remember when your mother and father—were they ever in an organization—Oddfellows, or was there a Masonic, or—? What kind of organization did you hear your mother and father talk about they was in?
My mother was in the Missionary Society that was made up of members of
the Baptist and Methodist churches. And my father was an Oddfellow. That
was a black
Could you remember when the streets in Oxford were not paved and all of them was dirt?
Yes. There were no paved streets in Oxford during the time I was going to the graded school. That was from nineteen and eight—six—nineteen and seven or eight. And one of the big city-owned buildings on—what is it, Main or Hillsborough Street? It's the big building that was City Hall for awhile, the big building that was the City Hall before they built the new City Hall building now?
Oh. Did you remember when Oxford had a black fire department?
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Did you remember when Oxford had a black fire department?
Yes, an excellent black fire department.
Can you give me some of the names of the firemens that you can think of?
Some of the names of the—?
The firemens.
The firemen were Percy Gregory, Elijah [Holeman], Mr. Sam Owen, ah.
Were there many black restaurants and movie theaters? Was there any—do you remember when they had black movie theaters and black restaurants on Hillsborough Street?
I remember when all of the property on Hillsborough Street from the
corner of Broad and Hillsborough down the street and around the corner,
all of the businesses,
The white man left him the money?
Yes.
Uh-huh. That was—his mother?
Yes, his mother. The white family she worked for, the man was her father.
Could you tell me the name of the family that she worked for? Do you remember?
They're the Hunts. They're the wealthy family. The Hunts and the [Belews].
Tell me about Mr. Gregory's family and how prominent they were in businesses, the brother James and then their mother had restaurants, and worked hard to make sure blacks had some decent facilities to go to.
Yes, Mrs.—oh, what was her name? James's grandmother was Mrs. Sallie—I think her name was Mrs. Sallie Gregory. She had the restaurant on, as I said before, Negroes owned all the property from Hillsborough and—.
And Main.
And Main Street down around the corner of Lewis Street and down there, where the Betts Funeral Parlor is. All of that was Negro property.
And that's where your mother went to school on Lewis Street when she was
Down there in the [that] home. It's just—went to school right where the Day Care Center is now. I mean, where the lunches are served—the Education Center.
Why was blacks always working hard to have something in Oxford in those days? They worked together so closely, than they do now. Because times were so hard, or the close-knit families?
Well, it was the close-knit families, from the Negro women working in the homes and the men working at everything, everywhere they could get a job and they learned the trades of electrical wiring and carpentry and masonry. And they worked at all of those jobs.
When I go around and interview people, they always talk about the Ridleys, how they contributed to this town, how smart and how hard workers they were. Were they that hard workers, the Ridleys?
They were, they really were. They came from—their origin is up at the
Berea section.
…[always] had family, came from Berea, they say, all of them look like Indians and they had high cheekbones. Can you tell me something about your father and his relationship with the people from Berea and the communication about the Chavises and other families that come out of that area that look like Indians? Was their fathers or—the Indians lived up in northern Granville?
You're telling me something now about them being Indians, but I knew that
they lived up there. Even when I went down to Florida to teach in the
college down
What about Belltown? Did you know Belltown was named after a slave called Carolina Bell and the mail was out in that area?
No, I don't know anything about that, but the one thing I remember about the Belltown area was when the [Curtises] lived out there. Ah, what was the child's names?
Miss [Allen], [Annie Allen]?
Yeah, Allen's grandfather.
Did you ever know any Cozarts out there in Belltown?
No, I just knew the family by the Professor Cozart that taught at Mary Potter and his brother—was the only ones I knew.
Did you know one went to Barber-Scotia College and taught school up there, and became the chancellor?
No, I didn't know about that.
You didn't know that there was one from Belltown.
What was his name?
It was a—he's a gentleman, a man that—he was a Cozart from Belltown.
Well, I know one thing. [Annie Allen]'s father, he was one of the
Curtises. They were all in the whiskey business out there. And he stole
a man's pony and put the pony up in the attic to hide it. And he lived
up there for a year or two. But he stayed up there in the dark,
That's the truth.
Why are there so many people and families around Oxford are so much lighter than others and people resent—?
Well, just like the all the Tylers and everything. Because they intermarried. Grace Tyler intermarried and married—her husband was her cousin.
Oh, that's what happened.
Yes, they intermarried in the family. To keep the family white. They
didn't want no
Well, why your father went off?
Huh?
Tell me about the time your father was sent away? Who was that?
That was Papa Charles, my grandfather.
Who was he working for?
He was working at the dispensary. I don't know who the people were.
What is the dispensary?
That was the—whiskey—where they sold whiskey. They had a regular dispensary where you could buy whiskey.
And he was working for a white man?
Yeah.
And he sent him to work?
Sent—he was—no, Papa Charles worked for the—they sent Papa Charles—he sent Papa Charles—he decided that he wanted Grandma, and Grandma was working for him.
For Mr. Gregory?
No, Charles Lewis, Mama's father.
He was working for what white family?
I don't know.
But they wanted—?
But the Gregory man wanted Grandma.
Uh-huh, and so—.
And so, he sent Papa Charles down south to Mississippi.
To do what?
To work down there. And he had intercourse with Grandma and that's how Mama was born. That's why Mama looked like—Mama had [hair to her waist].
And what did your father think when he—your grandfather think when he came back?
What was it to think? It was slavery times.
Ain't nothing he could do about it.
It wasn't anything he could do about it.
Did the Gregorys look after your mother? Was they good to her because that was his daughter?
Yes, the
Timberlake.
Yeah, right beside where Timberlake lives. And across the street, the [Minors] own the property where the undertaker shop is and the next house, one of the Gregory girls married [Ashton]—what in the world was his name? Leonard was named for him. Married the man that had the beginning of the carpenter shop where Hillside is now?
Hilltop Lumber Company.
Hilltop Lumber Company.
So, your mother had white half-sisters.
Yes, and they knew it. They knew—all of them. They knew that Mama was
And he had a half black sister.
And that Mama was his sister. Everybody knew it.
She was the maid?
No, Grandma worked for them. And how they got married, Papa Charles, his people came from Lewis.
Lewis's.
Lewis's. That's right, the name Lewis. The Lewises and the Gregorys owned
Uh-huh. And he went to Mississippi.
They sent him down to Mississippi and when he came back, Grandma had Mama. Cause she had two brothers, Uncle Handy and—what was—Uncle Albert. And Uncle Handy just died. He lived up—the house that Mr. Lloyd owns over here for rent next to his house. That's where Uncle Handy and Aunt—what was her name? I can't think of Uncle Handy's wife's name. Lived over there in that house.
Mrs. Lyons, that's why they talk about Antioch was named Howelltown, and
all those people out there was light skinned, too, and there never was
slavery in that part of Granville County. We have a lot of pockets of
Granville County that it wasn't slavery and because it was free-issue
slaves like Jerome Anderson. They came from the
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the blackest thing in my group at school til I [went elsewhere]. I was—Lucille [Boyd], Lucille Shepherd, Annie, Effie Anderson. Anderson whose daddy was white, that lived where—the Anderson man that had the barber shop uptown that was downstairs.
That basement barber shop.
Yeah, Leonard worked there. Leonard and Gus [Burton] worked there shining shoes.
And you was the darkest kid in your class?
In my social group.
I was the blackest one. All of the rest of them had straight hair—Effie Anderson, Lucille [Hall], Annie Davis. Those were the closest children to me.
So when Dr. Shaw came here, he came as a missionary?
Dr. Shaw came here from the church.
Was a missionary.
From the Presbyterian church, as the president.
And he was a missionary here? Didn't he start teaching school in a two-room school first before he started Mary Potter?
It probably was.
And Dr. Shaw?
He married a Pennsylvanian, woman from Pennsylvania.
If you was going to write a book about Oxford and the events, would you think that Dr. Shaw should be one of the greatest individuals because he came here and helped educate these people and everybody had a decent—?
Not only that, but today, the Stovall area is the most prosperous area around here. Out here at—down there below Creedmoor, down in there, that's where the poorest Negroes live. Dr. Shaw was the influence, the most—more Negroes own property in the Stovall area because of his influence.
I heard that he did go out and talk to blacks in this town. How to invest their money and buy farms.
He did, he did. He had what-you-call-him to come here.
Who?
Booker T. Washington came here.
Booker T. Washington came to Oxford?
Came to Oxford and spoke at Mary Potter.
Did he stay all night?
Yes!
Who did stay with, what family?
Stayed with Dr. Shaw.
Booker T. Washington came to Oxford?
Yes.
Do you know what year it was? What grade were you in?
I was at the graded school. It was—. No. No, I was at Mary Potter. And
that was when [Preaching] and Red Russell and all the ball players from
Durham—Red Russell and Ben Hicks that married Ruby Cannady. Red Russell
and all those ball players—they were all, each schooled at Mary Potter.
And when Booker T. Washington came to Mary Potter to speak, Dr. Shaw had
[him here]. And Kitchen was the governor of North Carolina. And he made
the remark about how—that all the students [took to Preaching] and all
of them were in the same classes. Spoke to us about how we should be
proud of the fact that Booker T. Washington came here to speak. There
was somebody from the state government that came after Booker T.
Washington was here. And when he made that expression that we should be
proud, "you—we niggers"—Negroes—the way he pronounced it. And
[Preaching] and all of them, got up and walked out of the auditorium.
And Dr. Shaw was going to give demerits or something. And I remember
Is that why Shaw Hospital, the black hospital—that's who it was named after, Dr. Shaw?
They named it after Dr. Shaw.
And Shaw High School in Stovall?
In Stovall. Yeah, yeah.
That's who they named it after.
Yeah. And the Stovall area is the most prosperous, other than the Antioch
area, is the most prosperous area of our
They always have had very smart black kids that come out of their communities.
Yeah, yeah.
The whole time.
And they owned all the property.
Just like Antioch.
Yeah, yeah.
So you think that—if you had to put Number One in the history book, Dr. Shaw would be Number One. Or the Central Orphanage? Or?
Dr. Shaw, he's done more than the Central Orphanage did.
Dr. Shaw did more for this community.
Yeah, sure he did.
And that's why we have so many educated people come out of here and
Yeah, yeah. Sure.
So, what do you think about—it was a lot of slavery out in Belltown area. That was a pocket of slavery, because there's graves out there and I've seen them. But Granville County was just—was never a full county slave—.
Uh-uh. No, it's always been prosperous. Because the white men had been fathers of all of these children and they looked after them. They took care of them.
And sent them to school?
Sure.
Yeah. That's what they say about Chavis, John Chavis.
Yeah, yeah. I even met an Episcopal, very high in the—when I went down to Florida to teach, I met a Reverend Chavis that had originally come from up here in North Carolina. He was a high man in the Episcopal church down in Florida.
And he was very light?
Light brown skin.
Oh, so that's why Oxford has always prospered.
I tell you, when I went to Florida to teach summer school—when I went down to Florida, I was the most surprised person in the world because I had never seen as many blacks in my life. And the idea that blacks married blacks, schoolteachers and—black married black—that never happened in my lifetime up here.
It didn't?
No! You could name the black Negroes on the fingers of one hand.
In Oxford.
Yeah!
Mrs. Lyons, I heard that Oxford originally was going—had got started down at Harrisburg. And what happened, I think, the terrain or they didn't like the area. And they wanted to move it where it is now but blacks owned all the property. And was the Littlejohns the only black Littlejohns in this town? Is that why the street was named "Littlejohn Street" or what?
I guess it was. They were always prosperous people.
And that's why blacks own so much property. They had this area before the whites came in and took it from them.
Yes. Allison Holeman—Allison Holeman's daddy was white, some white man. Sure. That's why—do you remember Allison Holeman?
Yeah, I remember when she taught school. Yeah.
Yeah. Her daddy was white.
And that family prospers.
Yeah.
And a lot—most—some went to college.
Sure, sure.
Well, what was the—?
I'll tell you, when I went to Florida to work, and I had never seen as
many blacks in all my life.
Oh,
What did the white ladies do around here? Didn't they know these—their husbands—? What did they think about all these children popping up around here?
What they going to say about it? Even when I came along, I knew that Miss Marybelle and Nannie and all those were Mama's sisters. Leonard was named for Leonard Ashton. He was named for the man that started the—what's the lumber shop?
Hilltop.
Yeah, the Hilltop. The people who started the first Hilltop. When I came down here and—it had just moved down where they are now. They were up here in the northern part of the county.
What number were you as a kid in your family? Was you third child, or fourth?
I was the baby.
You was the baby.
The tenth child.
You was the tenth child.
Yeah.
And you knew all of your brothers and sisters.
Yeah.
Was all—you knew your brothers and sisters?
Sure. That's why I'm so familiar with New York. I've been to India, and I've been to New York all of my life.
Oh. Well, OK. When I interview people and they talk about slavery, they always said that the white lady didn't have no choice. There wasn't anything she could do about it.
There wasn't.
That was instilled in them, or that was the way they were raised, you think?
Well, what's she going to do about—if the husband was her bread and butter, where is she going? She couldn't take care of herself.
And I heard they used to take the slaves, the house people to church and set them on the front row. And they looked after them, but they didn't do much for the people in the field. And they made sure they had proper clothes and everything.
Yeah, sure. That's why the Stovall area is so progressive because Dr. Shaw went out there and developed it. Negroes own all that property to the Virginia line. Every bit of it. And the Antioch area because they're half-white down there, the Tylers and all of those.
And the Howells.
Yeah.
Tell me about Mr. Gregory's mother and father and how did they—after your mother come from the Oxford colored school—how did it come about that they had a school in Mr. Gregory's house? They needed another school? Or they had that class—that school got too big?
That was the first school that they—. They moved it from down there on the Fountain Branch where Mama went to school, and that was the first building there.
OK. Tell me about Fountain Branch. I heard they used to baptize—.
I was baptized at Fountain Branch. Ruth Payne and I, one Sunday morning.
The Fountain Branch I heard—that Mr. Field told me—that there was a pottery factory and that's why they called it Fountain Branch because it was the rocks, and the clay, and the material that they could get out of there. That there actually was a mill right up there on Hillsborough Street.
Who told you?
And that's why it's called Fountain Branch because it was a lot of clay. When I went to school, we used to get clay out of that branch. It was clay.
When you went to the graded school?
Uh-hum. Yeah.
Yeah. Mama went to school down there. Mama's schoolteacher was Miss—what
was the woman's name? Mama asked to go to the bathroom and Miss Joyner
told her she couldn't. So, Miss Joyner had one of those long skirts, a
big wide skirt all around. So, Mama peed on herself.
Oh Lord, I can tell you
Uh-hum. Or Mr. Yancey.
No, I'm talking about Harris.
Uh-huh. Yeah, J. P. Harris' father.
J. P. Harris married one of the factory gals.
Old man Harris?
J. P.'s father.
Married a poor white lady?
Married—from the cotton factory. It was all over town that he had gone over there and messed up that girl up here at the cotton—that factory girl. [They were about] to have a riot in Oxford.
Oh.
[Leonard and those] that used to have fights with them. They'd pile up their rocks and take their rocks and have battles with rocks. Where all the kids—they had school over there but then they didn't even go to school or didn't go to the school on College Street where white children went.
Did you ever hear or know that there was a white school over on the corner of Lee Street and—over there in that area on New College Street? The Hillary School, or what was the first white school?
Oh, yeah. Hillary Academy.
And Dr. Patilla taught school over there?
I don't know about that. Might have. But I remember when the boarding school was there.
And you're ninety-one years old and you can remember all that just like it was yesterday?
Yeah. Near ninety-two. I'll be traveling on my ninety-second birthday. That's when I go to Hilton Head.
Uh-hum. And whites had to come from blacks to buy their meat, ripping
them and
Yeah. Oh, they had—the building that was the last City Hall in Oxford. Upstairs was the auditorium where we had the school commencement. When James Gregory and Mary Carrington—she was the—on the—that's the first time I ever heard the word "slut". That's what they called her.
Called who?
Mary Carrington. Mary Carrington and those lived in a row of red houses.
Uh-hum, I know where you're talking about.
Over there by Mary Potter.
Uh-hum. Called Red House Road.
Yeah! You remember that? You remember the name Red House Road. Well, Mary Carrington came from over there, but she had a marvelous voice. And at the commencement exercises, the last one they had at the Opera House, she and James Gregory had the leading parts in it.
Why did they call it the Opera House?
Opera? From the word "opera".
Oh, OK.
Which means entertainment.
And that's where the blacks went for dances and their commencements? That's the facility they used?
Yeah.
And downstairs—?
And downstairs was a market, Ridley's. Ed Ridley and those. That was the biggest meat market in Oxford.
It was under that Opera House.
Yeah.
And that was the only one that you had to eat—blacks and everybody had to buy from the same market.
Yeah.
It won't no white—?
Yeah, and Mr. [Bell] had the fish market down on the corner of—on Granville Street. Right where you come through there from Hillsborough to Orange—.
Hillsborough and Orange Street.
Hillsborough and Orange Street.
OK. The church was right across the street?
No. I'm talking about where the Second Baptist—where Penn Avenue Baptist Church is.
OK. Yeah, that's McClanahan Street.
Yeah.
That's right. There was a fish market over there?
The fish market was on the Hillsborough end of it. And the Durham man ran
Mrs. Lyons, you are ninety-one. Do you drive and have a driving license?
Yeah, I got my driver's license.
And you drive?
Yeah.
At ninety-one?
I drove myself to the doctor when I went to the dentist here a few weeks ago when I paid him $128.00 for some dental work I had done. I drove out there on Industry Drive.
And didn't anybody assist you or nothing?
No.
You can drive and go where you want to go around town?
Yeah.
At ninety-one.
Yeah, I just got a new license.
So, you going to keep on keeping on driving, ain't you?
I don't do too much driving now, but I still drive when I have to and I can't get my hands on Ed, or can't get my hands on Marie.
What do you think about the kids that's eleven and twelve and thirteen and fourteen coming up now that's having all this problems with their parents and going to prison and killing?
They're not being taught and then you can't [whip them] and you can't do anything with them.
That's what everybody say.
I saw a white woman turn her little girl down and beat her behind good
You know, this was the first year that we started in the Community Center when the kids have discipline problems and they used to send them home. This year they has a Community Center and they has two teachers down there to work with those kids. And do you know—?
Where?
At the Community Center. It's just started. And we're in our third week. Do you know it's half full now, they say. Isn't that a shame?
Well, they don't get any training at home. [Beach] told me last year, twenty-six girls in the Middle School had babies. There was one white girl and twenty-five Negro girls, Negro kids. It was just before he died, he and I were talking on the telephone.
And that's one of the problems with the educational system when we integrated. Black parents stopped beating their kids.
Can't whip child now.
And when you and I came along, the community looked after us. Everybody in the community.
Yeah.
You never thought you'd see a day like this, did you? When children
eleven
Well, but the thing that gets me is the ten and eleven-year old children having babies.
Oh, so children having children.
Yeah, I was seventeen years old when I first menstruated.
They were. Miss Annie Lassiter is the one I went to school to. The house is still right down here on the corner. The Hicks lived right next door.
And out at [Huntsville], a lot of smart people come from out there, too.
Yeah.
Did you know the Youngs that lived in town? Jimmy Young, Pete Owen, any of the Young people?
Uh-uh.
You didn't know any of those?
Uh-uh.
James Gregory, he contributed a lot to this community.
Yeah, he did.
Yeah, he was a good—and Mr. Gregory had done a lot for this community.
Percy had—when they had the restaurant downtown on Granville Street,
Percy had one woman making his whiskey—cause he could buy the sugar and
stuff cause he'd get it for the restaurant—he had one woman making his
whiskey and another one
So this was a good bootlegger town? This whole county?
Yeah, sure.
You remember when Camp Butner started?
I was away. Camp Butner started after I started—. No, that started around 1930, '25 or '30. I was in New York then.
Did you remember the soldiers used to come to town and all?
No, I don't know anything about that.
Oh, you wasn't here.
The only thing I knew about it was when I'd come home on vacation.
Did you ever teach in this county before you left here?
Yeah, I taught at Bullock's.
You taught out at Bullock's?
Uh-huh.
How did you get from out there back home? You stayed with some family all week and come home on weekends or what?
Yeah. Everybody had cars but me. I was one of the last ones around here to have an automobile.
Was that a one-room school, or a two?
No, two. Georgia Royster taught with me. Georgia Royster whose son is the judge. Raleigh—from Durham, whose been back here and has spoken at the Mary Potter reunion.
Uh-huh.
She and I taught together. She and her family lived up here—you know where the Slaughters live? Where Emma Slaughter lives? They lived in the house right next to the property [that's next].
You know like Dr. Anderson and all those people born over here? We've got a lot of prominent people born in Granville County, went off and did well.
Sure. Dr. Anderson did well here. His brother—now, that was late years, probably your time, when his brother walked around with his father's ashes in the mayonnaise jar.
Yeah.
Tell me about the time that you heard that a man got hung in jail. There was a hanging and won't no way he could have hung hisself in jail. Couldn't nobody do anything about it. Did you hear about that?
That was down the—they lived—the what-you-call-them lived down there next to them—Mrs. Kim—what is the man's name—Kimbrell, Kim-something. There were two houses along there.
Was there a Burrell?
No, he wasn't a Burrell. [Bruce] Hicks, Mr. Hicks that had the blacksmith shop lived down there, Ruth's and Mildred's half-brother, Lonnie Hicks.
Lonnie Hicks, yeah.
Yeah. Lonnie's daughter is the—is Clarence—married Effie—married Tessie
Anderson. And his sister is—she's a Henderson. You know the Henderson
houses, project? His wife was the—he was the—he still is—in the real
estate business
And you were speaking of Dr. [Bowie]. Dr. [Bowie]—now, the only girl that had—in my lifetime coming along—the only girl who had a baby out of wedlock was the child living up here in the grove. Used to be a grove right here in my neighborhood. She had the baby by Dr. [Bowie]. She was in school with Effie and Annie and all of us, in the graded school.
Didn't Mrs. [Boyd] or the people she lived with, [her adopted people]—wasn't one of them a preacher or a doctor?
Who?
Miss Lucille—Miss Lucy [Boyd].
Lucy [Boyd] was [all those] white folks that came from out at—those white
niggers
That's why she was so white-looking?
Yeah, they were half-white. Her daddy was white, or all of them were white. Like the Tyler child. She married one of her cousins to keep white in the family. Grace Tyler. Grace Tyler and her husband were first cousins. And the Kelloggs married in their family to keep white in the family. The Kelloggs from out at—.
Belltown?
Yeah, from Belltown.
The Curtises.
The Curtises and all those. They had to marry to keep white in the family. Won't no black.
Oh, OK. And a man got hung in jail, say he hung hisself in jail and he—.
It was Saturday night.
And the white man killed him because he was messing with his—.
The house that they lived in is—I'll tell you—.
He was Jack Kingsbury.
Yeah, but the Kingsbury house is on—what's the street that's across from—?The house that's from the railroad up to Broad Street? Those houses along there. One of them is blue and white, you know, along there.
Yeah.
Well, now, that double house there was the Kingsbury house. Lonnie Hicks and the Kingsburys lived on—there was a street there where the—?
Car wash and all that stuff is?
No.
That's Raleigh Street.
No, but they were on the—where the warehouse to the tobacco place used to be. Along there.
Oh, I know where you're talking about. I can't think of the name.
[Down there near] the railroad—they were facing the railroad. And there weren't but two houses down there. Lonnie Hicks, who was the blacksmith—that was Clarence and those. Clarence married Effie Anderson.
So Jack Kingsbury beat his wife up real bad and they put him in jail?
Yeah.
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[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
[Tape 2, Side A begins with same conversation on the end of Tape 1, Side B, then continues before ending abruptly. Tape 2, Side B is blank.]
… a man got hung in jail, say he hung hisself in jail, and he—.
It was Saturday night.
And the white man killed him because he was messing with his—.
The house that they lived in is—I'll tell you—.
He was Jack Kingsbury.
Yeah, but the Kingsbury house is on—what's the street that's across from—? The house that's from the railroad up to Broad Street? Those houses along there. One of them is blue and white, you know, along there.
Yeah.
Well, now, that double house there was the Kingsbury house. Lonnie Hicks and the Kingsburys lived on—there was a street there where the—?
Car wash and all that stuff is?
No.
That's Raleigh Street.
No, but they were on the—where the warehouse to the tobacco place used to be. Along there.
Oh, I know where you're talking about. I can't think of the name.
[Down there near] the railroad—they were facing the railroad. And there
So Jack Kingsbury beat his wife up real bad and they put him in jail?
Yeah. Yeah. They had a restaurant. The restaurant was down there back of where the jail is.
Yeah. Well, why didn't nobody do anything about him, or couldn't nothing they do?
Because they were mixed up with white folks.
Oh.
It was white folks did it. All of it they kept with the white folks.
Oh, so blacks couldn't do anything about it?
No, no.
You remember when they built the hotel down there by the graveyard?
Yeah. Percy Gregory used to carry the baggage from the—when the men come in where all of the salesmen stayed there.
Uh-hum, the tobacco—.
Yeah. Yeah, salesmen and all of them. Percy Gregory worked there. He and—that's when they became good friends, he and the Holden child's father.
The Ransoms was—wasn't there a Reverend Ransom, or a teacher Ransom, and all those?
Yeah, he was a Baptist minister. He and Reverend Patilla. They came along together.
So that's why blacks have a good background in education in this county
Yeah. Miss Annie Lassiter and her sister Lillan taught at Bennett.
Oh yeah?
Uh-huh. And her uncle, he went to Harvard. Reverend Cook—his son, Peter Cook—his daughter—he has a daughter that's—I'm sorry. I don't know her address. But his son was a famous football player and he went to Central and got killed. Got hurt in a football game and died that Saturday night. They kept it quiet but it was a result of the play in the game. He was the elder in our church. He was Mrs. Payne and Mrs. Lassiter's brother, Peter Cook. They're from up in—the Cooks came from—they all look like white—they came from Roxboro.
And all the streets in Oxford were dirt streets when you was a kid?
Yeah.
Was the post office—where was the post office at when you was a kid?
The post office, the first one was near where Breedlove's store is, there. And then the next one—.
Was over there by the Union Bank, where the drive in—?
Yeah.
Didn't Mrs. Johnson—Mrs. Hawley—Mrs. Johnson, Reverend Hawley's wife, didn't they own that property where William Breedlove was? Was that owned by blacks on that street, on Main Street?
I don't know. I know that Anderson and Mangum owned the other corner where the barber shop was downstairs.
[Alf Mangum?]
Yeah. Cause Leonard worked there as a shoeshine boy. Leonard and Gus Burton worked there together when Leonard was in high school.
That Shepherd Funeral Home—they had a funeral home there at [Penny's Furniture Company]—right there where Ace Hardware. Him and Jack Hicks—didn't that Hicks man—Smith man have a funeral home? Didn't Smith—
Mr. Ed Smith?
Yeah, Ed Smith.
Yeah, they owned all of the property from where the automobile place is—
The Chevrolet place.
Yeah, by the Chevrolet—they owned that whole block from the Chevrolet place up to Hillsborough Street.
I heard that.
They did. What-you-call-him owned it at one time, and he lost it. Royster. Royster was the—.
Uh-hum. Mrs. Branch sold it to him because they had had property. That was the last piece of property downtown, Mrs. Branch's piece. And did the [Cannady]—did the Kittrell people from out at Huntsville, did you ever know that they had a tailoring shop? They made clothes in town, those blacks.
Uh-uh.
You must have been gone then. They had a drug—they had a—they used to make clothes.
Well, see, I was going back and forth to New York from the time I was six or seven years old.
Oh, OK. How was you traveling? By train?
Yeah, the Seaboard train.
Because you had sisters and brothers in New York.
Yeah. Sure.
And your father or mother never really had a hard time in life, far as coming along?
No.
That was good.
Well, we all—sure, we could ride the Seaboard train. Down there where the station was.
So, what do you think about blacks now and the property that they had
lost from downtown? And the families didn't pay taxes and half
No, they didn't. They didn't take care. And Mrs. Pettiford came down here—her mother was a dressmaker.
Um-hum. Did you know a lady came here and was going to build a hospital down there where Orange Street School is right there? And I can't think of her name. And she was in a frame house. And she had to go back—somebody got sick—and she never finished it. I want to say across from Mr. Gregory. You remember when houses was up and down in that area?
When the man, the Harrisses—when Greely Harris had the restaurant down where the jail and the museum down there.
Uh-huh. I heard that blacks had property down there where the jail—they
Yeah. Greely Harris was a handsome man.
He was?
Tall, slender, brown-skinned. I remember he'd dress up and wear spats and his gray trousers and his [tweed] coats and everything. I remember when Grandma worked at the—she worked with Greely. When he had the restaurant uptown, I remember, the first time I learned to eat celery was there. It was before—I'd had celery at home, but I didn't like it. And I went down there with Grandma and that's where I learned to eat celery, eating it down there at William Harriss's restaurant. And they—and he lived—the big house was across the street from where Charles Gregory's house is. Where the—that was all Negro property—.
I heard it was.
They had the big restaurant there—not a restaurant. There was all apartments there. Negroes lived in there.
Who was the teachers that taught you at Mr. Gregory's when you went to school?
Miss Annie Lassiter. One woman—the children used to treat her so badly—the Parham child's—.
Miss Irene Parham's mother.
Mother. She was a Hamme.
But the children didn't like her, or she was so strict, or what?
No, she was—she used to—the boys used to go through her classroom and
pull the girls' hair and they'd start crying and she'd cry,
Uh-huh.
And who were the teachers? Mrs. Gregory taught second grade. I remember I learned the tables, all of the tables. I could say them by heart when I was in second grade.
Second grade?
Yeah, that's when I learned my tables, and learned to add, subtract, multiply and divide. In second grade!
And now kids be in the ninth grade and they can't do it.
Um-hum. Because they've never been taught the multiplication tables.
They use calculators. What about the church? They used to have a church
down there. Didn't the church move—
Yeah, our church was down on Hillsborough Street. It was where the automobile place is.
Tom [Watkins]'s.
Yeah. And the street—that street get through there.
And [Roy Mack] has taught a lot around here in Oxford, too, didn't he?
Yeah, and the Burrell that the daughter married the Hunt. She was the artist here. Lived up here on Broad Street. They lived on—where the back of Crawford's house—.
Jimmy Crawford?
Yeah. The back of his house—a great big house on Broad Street. And that's
Um-hum. Where Granville Corner is.
Huh?
Where the [trashpile] used to be. Is that where you're talking about he had it?
No.
What happened?
When the Burrell man—he lived over near Mary Potter—.
END OF INTERVIEW