[TAPE 1, SIDE A]

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Okay, this is tape 02.25.04-CL. Today's the 25th, right?

WILLIE LOWERY:

24th.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

February—is it the 24th? Tape 02.24.04-CL, February 24th, 2004. We're in Pembroke, North Carolina, interviewing Mr. Carnell Locklear. The interviewers are Malinda Maynor and Willie Lowery.

So, Mr. Locklear, start where you think is appropriate to tell us your first experiences as an activist here in Robeson County.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

In 1968, I began to wonder, what kind of people are we. We look different, each one of us. There's not many of us looks alike. We're a sprinkle. Some got, you know, red hair, and some got blonde hair, and I said, man, what kind of people, where'd we come from? I never really knew, always heard we were Lumbees. Then I got to doing some research, and find out myself there was a tremendous amount of different tribes among us. The Eno, the Cherokee, the Tuscarora, and different tribes. And then I said, man, how can we be Lumbee people and have all this different blood of Indians among us. And then I went to doing some research with the encyclopedia, and I found out that the people in the eastern part of North Carolina were Tuscarora people. Migrated, they were here, and then some left and some went to New York and some stayed here. Now, all of the Indian people at that time didn't leave here. Some migrated up there, and some stayed here and hid in the swamps. Then I got really interested, and I wanted to find out about the Lumbee bill. I went to

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Washington, and I sat down and talked to Alton Lennon, and he gave me a copy of the Lumbee bill.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Talked to who?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Alton Lennon. He was a congressman at that time. He was from Wilmington. And he says, he give me a copy of Lumbee bill, and I read it. In the Lumbee Bill at that time, it said, these people hereafter will be recognized as Lumbee Indians. In other words, they would have the name as Lumbee Indians, but they will have no rights as Indian people. And that kind of threw me off. I said, man, what kind of—in other words, we're Indian in one sense, and non-Indians in the other one. And Alton Lennon told me, he come down here and him and I met at the Old Foundry. And he told me, "Now, Mr. Carnell, what it is now, these people are very difficult to work with. They will fight each other and we've tried to work with them, and I've not been able to do anything with them." I said, "Well, I want to help my people." I said, a lot of our people at that time, they needed food stamps, they needed kerosene, they needed clothing. A lot of them couldn't read and write. And they didn't understand the system. They'd get lost in the system. So I said, I want to start an organization, a non-profit organization, and I want to see if I could help. So I give up my job, selling insurance, and I lost my home, I lost my trailer, I lost my car, I lost everything. And I moved in a old house over near Midway, and then I started organizing. We'd meet once a week. And the people would help me by bringing me food to

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eat. They would pay my light bill at that time, and they bought me some furniture. They gave me a stove, and they give me clothing. There's a man in Fayetteville, I'll never forget him, his name is Mr. Champ Goins, give me an old 1964 beat up Plymouth. And somebody had hit it in the rear and knocked the rear end slam up there. So I began to organize, and we began to go down to the food stamp place. A lot of people would go in there, and they'd apply for food stamps, and it would be three months before they'd hear from the application. And I said, "Boy, this is wrong." I said, "This is just wrong." So we, at that time we began to organize, we began to march against the system down there.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Social Services?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Department of Social Services. That was the first thing we jumped on.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Now, tell me who was it that was gathering with you to do these?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

The low income class people from the county here. Indian people primarily.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Were they becoming aware of being Tuscarora as well?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. We studied the history books at night during the process, and Barry Nakell from Chapel Hill, he agreed to draw up a charter. I knew him by, he come down here and met with me and at that time we were really getting in the newspaper a great deal. The Robesonian was very, very nice to us, because we had a guy from Texas, I've forgot his name, but anyway he began to write articles almost every week. And the more he'd write, the more I would get

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involved. And Mr. Chavis, what was his name? Miss Dorothy's daddy, Dorothy Lowry's daddy, what was his name? Uncle Zimmie's boy.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Ed? I mean not Ed—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Ed's father.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

James, Jim.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Mr. Jim Chavis. Mr. Jim Chavis told me to come to his house. I went to his house, and he says, "Mr. Carnell," he says, "I've been watching you for a long time, ever since you were a little boy." And he says, "I want you to try to do something. I'm getting old and feeble." But he said there was 22 individuals that recognized in 1934 that Indians of one half or more degree of Indian blood. And he says, "I want you to take this stuff and I want you to go Washington, see what you can do with it." Well, at that time, the American Friends Service Committee, who is a religious organization who helped minorities or disadvantaged people to help themselves. So they agreed to help me a little bit. So they gave me a grant of 1500 dollars. And I took that money and used it to buy my clothes and stuff and buy my gas. And I went to Washington and met with the American Indian Rights Fund [Native American Rights Fund] out of Boulder, Colorado. So they agreed to give me a lawyer, Thomas N. Tureen. You ever hear of him?

MALINDA MAYNOR:

I have, he's very well known.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Thomas N. Tureen. So I went to Washington and showed some people in the BIA that document, where the 22 was recognized. So this guy said, "Man, I don't know what you're talking about." I said, "Boy, you'll get [unclear] to be here." So he agreed to help me find the people's names and the addresses of these

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people, of the 22. What the 22 was, they come down here and took blood samples of the people, and their eyes, their nose, their hair, their fingernails, their skin, their living traditions, the culture. And they said, well, these people are one-half or more degree of Indian blood under the Howard-Wheeler Act. The Indian Organization [Act] of 1934, which gives them the right to organize and have a reservation, and be hired by the BIA, Indian Health Services. But what happened, at that time, during the 1934 up to up until the '50s, the BIA was trying to terminate Indians. And these people names got shuffled around through the red tape and had been forgot about. So Thomas N. Tureen agreed with the Rights Fund to come and help us. And at that time, we began to organize and began to march on Department of Social Services, and we sometimes would have 3 and 400 people at the meetings. And at that time, the double voting issue come along. That was where the people in the towns could vote for the people in the country, but the people in the country couldn't vote for the people in the towns.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

The school board.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

School board.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Right.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

So we began to work with that, me and Deck [Dexter Brooks] and Mr. Danford [Dial]and Harold Deese and Dr. Dalton Brooks and all of them [unclear]. In other words, we began to get a lot of the Indian people in the high echelon into backing us a little bit. Dupree Clark, and so—

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MALINDA MAYNOR:

Is the organization you're talking about the Eastern Carolina Indian Organization?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Eastern Carolina Indian Organization.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Okay, so this is sort of the early activities of that group. I just want to make sure we know for the tape [unclear]. Go ahead, I'm sorry.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

And we had Gus Speros, he was the state representative at that time. He agreed to work along with us. Governor Holshouser was running at that time against Skipper Bowles, and during our activity, that all of the organizing and all of the publicity we were given, had really got momentum.

WILLIE LOWERY:

It was chaos at that time.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

We were really moving in a positive direction. We had got the Department of Social Services on the defensive, I could walk in there and get the food stamps and walk out just like that. I'd walk in, they'd say, "Mr. Carnell, who'd you bring out here today." I'd say, "I've got these 15 people that are gonna need their food stamps." And we could get food stamps for them. The Migrant Seasonal Farmworkers Association, you ever heard of them?

MALINDA MAYNOR:

No.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

That was an organization that helped to get food, they'd give you money to buy grocery and kerosene, money to go to the doctor. And they come down here, and they gave out that evening $10,000 in vouchers for people to get food, go to the doctor, medicine, and everything.

And so we got the Department of Social Services going, we broke double voting.

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I was on the commission to save Old Main. We went out there and was sleeping and snoring. We marched, and really got the attention of the state. So Governor Holshouser was elected, Dennis Banks come down. During that time, Dennis Banks, Russell Means, Vernon Bellecourt, Clyde Bellecourt, and all the American Indian Movement started a movement out in the west, and they come all the way down through Texas, all the way down through every state they'd come in, they'd pick up so many people. And I was the last stop. I was the last stop, and at that time Holshouser was running.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Now, is this the Trail of Broken Treaties?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

That's right. It's being called the Trail of Tears. You're aware about the Trail of Tears, Andrew Jackson, what he done.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Yeah.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

And I studied up on him and hated his guts for what he had done. It was terrible. The longest war, not the Vietnam War or the Korean War or the War of 18[12], it was the war with the American Indian. That's the longest war. It's still running today. But anyhow, at that time, Dennis Banks and all them guys that I mentioned, come down here, and we went to Washington DC. And I told him I have to come a long way around. But anyway, me and Russell and all of us, they come down here, and we camped out up there at the Indian Culture Center. We took the land for four days and four nights, and—

WILLIE LOWERY:

What was it called back then? Was it called the Culture Center?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. The Recreation Center. So we went in there and barricaded it, we took it over, and wouldn't let nobody come in or go out. The Sheriff's

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Department, wouldn't let the Sheriff's Department go in, we locked the doors. This wooden door. So [Malcolm] McLeod was the Sheriff at that time. He says, "Carnell, please, get these people out of here. We don't want to hurt nobody, we don't want to get this National Guard [unclear]." [unclear] he was [unclear] and everywhere. At that time it was really, really hot.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

I imagine it upset some of the Lumbees.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

It upset some of the highest Lumbees.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

How did they react to that camping out at the recreation center?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

They didn't particular care, but what we had to do, we had the momentum going and it was very, very hard to stop. Because we had so many issues we wanted to work on. I wanted to work on federal recognition, I wanted to work on the treatment of the Indians by the Department of Social Services, Save Old Main, double voting, and the way the highway patrol at that time was treating the Indian people. We worked on all of those issues.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

So even if the Lumbee leadership didn't like it, there wasn't a lot they would have done about it.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, the school board, we took over the school board at that time, too.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Tell us a little bit about that. What was behind that particular—.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

The Indian schools was not up to par to the other, to the white schools. I'd go in the Indian schools, and sometime I just walked through hall and look at the wall and see that the bathrooms, and I'd go to a white school and do the same thing, and the difference would be tremendous with the upkeep on the building. So we went down there and we took over the board of education. Me

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and Dennis Banks and all we fellows done that and that brought attention up. So the board—

WILLIE LOWERY:

What do you mean, took it over, you just—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Went down there and sat on the grounds, stayed on the grounds for three or four days. Got the news media involved, and that made a difference. So we got that pretty well [unclear] because they didn't want no bad publicity. I said, if you will correct all these deficiencies, I'll back off. So they began to work on it.

They didn't like it at the time. So we went to Washington and the next morning, I'll never forget it, I got the newspaper and I looked at it, and Governor Holshouser had won. I said, "Thank you." We had marched for him down here. We had marched all over the place. Skipper Bowles come to Red Springs, and we confronted him in Red Springs, all of us. He was a candidate at that time, a Democrat. And so Robeson County was a very Democratic county, and still is today, but it's not as bad now as it was back then. In other words, the people told me, said, I'll vote for a dog instead of a Republican. That's how bad, stupid they was, if I must say that word. But when Holshouser won, that made it much easier for us to save Old Main. When he took over office, he said that would be one of the first things he done, is leave it where it's at. That was a big issue. Me and Janie—

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Talk about why it was such a big issue and who you worked with—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, I thought that the culture behind it, that was the first Indian normal school in the United States. That right there was a lot for me to fight for. The first, the first school for Indians, Old Main. And we didn't want them to put it over

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yonder and we all made [unclear]. Like look at what they done to the Henry Berry Lowry out there, look at that.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Tell us some of the people that was active with you on that.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, me and Janie [Maynor Locklear], Mr. Danford Dial—well, all people come together on that issue. All our people come together on that issue.

WILLIE LOWERY:

[unclear]

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Oh, yeah. Well, me and Mr. Danford, and Harold Deese and the Tuscaroras. Now Mr. Danford, he stood out there and he cried and cried and cried. He said, I'll die before I see it tore down. He said, I'll go there and lay down inside of it. And all our people, a lot of our people just cried and wept over that. So LRDA was behind us at that time, Ken Maynor. I mean, that was a issue where everybody got involved, cause it meant so much to everybody. Now, although the leadership of the Lumbee really didn't like the word Tuscarora, but were in a position where they really couldn't say nothing, because it was helping the welfare of the people. So that made a—

WILLIE LOWERY:

They sort of pushed you out there when they were unsure too.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah they sort of pushed you around, but it was still very supportive. I got money from the Lumbees to keep it going. So we went to Washington DC and stayed there for three weeks.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Was that the BIA?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

The BIA, we took over the BIA. We had 1500 of us. So we met with—I met with me and Dennis and Russell and Vernon Bellecourt and Clyde. It was five of us met with Nixon's lawyer. [unclear] what was his name? But anyway, he told

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me personally, call me over. Says, Carnell, if you'll get your people out of here, go back home, we're going to give each organization so much money. Pay for your gas and pay for you some food, if you'll get them out of here and go back home. He says, write me a proposal and send it direct to me. He said, we'll see that something is done. Well, in the main process, before we went there, Thomas N. Tureen agreed to file a lawsuit against the Secretary of Interior, Rogers C. B. Morton, about the 22. And the federal judge at that time, I forgot his name, he said, the 22 must honor the Lumbee Act. The Lumbee Act at that time stated they recognized these people as Indians, but won't have no benefits [unclear] because of their status as Indians. So I told Thomas, I said, "Let's appeal that, Tom." So he went to the Fourth Circuit Appeals in Richmond. The Fourth Circuit Appeals listened to both sides, Thomas N. Tureen argued for it and then you had the Secretary of the Interior's office argued against it. So the Fourth Circuit Appeals agreed with us, that those 22 individuals was not under the Lumbee Act. That these Indians was more than one half degree of Indian blood. And the border line people was one half or more degree of Indian blood. And if they had any brothers or sisters, they were automatically covered. So what we done, was Thomas N. Tureen and Barry Nakell, we agreed at that time—we had already come back. We had done that before, when we filed a lawsuit and lost it before we went to Washington. And then while we was in Washington, Thomas N. Tureen appealed it, and they heard it, and they put 1974. When we come back from Washington, I had a meeting that Wednesday night, and I told the people, I said, "Listen, this is what

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we've got to do." I said, "We've got to write down what we want." So I had brought a person in to help us write a grant, a proposal for what we wanted to accomplish. And there was a guy sitting in there who was a grandson of one of the original 22. He stands up in the meeting and says, "Ladies and gentlemen, I've got some bad news for you." I mean, right out of the deep blue sky. "I've got some bad news." He paused, he said, "Carnell Locklear sold us out." He said, "He got a hundred thousand dollars. He's got a brand new Cadillac, he's got a woman, he's married, out of South Carolina. He's got a home at the beach, he's got a woman in Washington DC." And when he said that, the people said [makes whistling noise]. Just sat there. They broke up, they left there that night. I went home, and about 2:00 that morning, my house got shot at. I heard them coming to shoot. And I took my kids, and got them and put them under the bed. Then my wife and me got up under the bed. And they shot at my house that night. And to that night right on, they split up in five different ways.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Why did he say that?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

His name was Howard Brooks, he lived over here on the river.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Howard Brooks, that—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Chief Howard Brooks.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Not the doctor—

WILLIE LOWERY:

No, no I'm saying—

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Yeah, the Howard Brooks that was [unclear].

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CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah, he got locked up with Golden Frinks. So Howard took them on a streak. What happened when they shot at my house, my mama told me don't go back there. I said, "Mom, I'm going back there. To one more meeting." When I went back to that meeting that night, they had pitchforks, they had knives, they had guns, they had axes and everything. My mother went with me, and my Aunt Maggie. Aunt Maggie had a .22 pistol, and she pulled it out that night, said, "If you all lay your hands on him, I'll blow your brains out." So we had to back out of the meeting that night.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Where was that meeting? Was it at Prospect?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

At the school?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Uh-huh. In the process, now, this building over here on the Union School Road had got burnt down, somebody arson burned it.

WILLIE LOWERY:

[unclear]

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

And then also, Old Main got burnt down in the process.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

All right here at the same time?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

All about the same time. My house got shot at. I got threatened and all. And since that day, I never went in another meeting. Howard takes them on a spree, and he goes to Raleigh and he gets locked up, a lot of them gets locked up at Prospect. And then after all that happened, then they wanted me to pick it back up, a lot of people.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Because what Howard Brooks had done, how did that play out?

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CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

It just went dead. He got locked up, he went to prison. They locked him up.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Why did he go to prison?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Marching without a permit, and he wouldn't dismiss, and also he wouldn't go to jail that night up there. And they took a warrant out on him and locked him up anyway. But I never did—after that happened, after they shot at my house, I never went to another meeting. And they come to my house one night, and they demanded I give them all the material I had. They had Thomas N. Tureen with them, and he told me, said, "Carnell, if I don't get that material they're going to kill you." I had five boxes where I done research. I mean, I had enough of stuff that I really tied down the federal government. But what had happened, when I come from BIA, I had no time to copy it. Cause I didn't know this was coming up. And I give it to them that night. And I've never been able to get all that stuff back together. It was scattered here and yon. And after Howard, and all he'd done, then they split them in five different organizations. You had Howard's group, you had Leon's group, the Keever Locklear group, you had Vermon Locklear—the Hatteras Tuscarora, Vermon Locklear's group. Then you had a group from over here at Saddletree. I never did find out who that guy was. But these people were all opportunists. Then you had the Cecil's group, the Tuscarora tribe of North Carolina. Now, Keever got a little money, I understand. Leon's still getting money. Yokes, Vermon Locklear's group, Hatteras Tuscarora, they got some money for

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a short time. Vermon Locklear did manage to—I kind of assisted them a little bit along the way, because some of them were my people. And they finally got about 5 houses built out of it. And the Secretary of the Interior agreed to send the money in the Hatteras Tuscarora name, on that agency, so that automatically put down that they did recognize them as Hatteras Tuscarora. When they give them the money. They got 5 houses. But he finally winded out. And all of them finally winded out. Now Keever, he passed away. And Leon's still going a little bit, and Cecil and them just about.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Did any of them have to do with—?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

No, he was a bystander. It just picked up—cause I was all over in Washington, I was paid for. Interviews and from Russia, England, foreign countries. Switzerland, all over the place. Eight or nine different foreign countries, I—.

WILLIE LOWERY:

What made you go to Washington to begin with? And how did you involve other Indians in [unclear]?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, what was going on at that time, they were trying to cut LRDA out.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Who was?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

The federal government. They's cutting them back And that was the only way we could bring attention to the—

WILLIE LOWERY:

In the media?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

The main aspect of it. Because I went out to visit Banks' reservation, I mean, that was rough. Them people had it rough. And well, they still do. And that's one reason because of LRDA at that time, they were cutting their funds

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back, and I saw this would be a good time to bring some attention to the economic conditions in Robeson County, the schools, the racial barriers. And they come down, the Human Rights Commission come down here and had a hearing. I forgot what year that was in, '73 or '74, somewhere along there. And we had testified before the United States Civil Rights Commission, we testified on behalf of that. And the Justice Department come in here and done a lot of reporting, and then Julian Pierce. Indians began to become aware that they could be elected, because of the double voting being abolished. And Julian Pierce got [unclear], and you know what happened there. And then Glenn and all of them began to think about running for sheriff. And after I left that organization, the governor, Holshouser, offered me a job. And I couldn't not take it. So they got a grant from the Department of Labor, Education, and Health Services for me to work a couple years down here, me and Tryon Lowry. We had the Governor's Task Force on Human Progress. And what that was, was an organization that paid me a salary to do the same thing I'd done before, but I couldn't get out there and march and demonstrate. I had to work within the system. So we done a great deal, done a lot there.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

And so that was starting, what, about seventy—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Three.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Three. Because when you started working with that office—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

We stayed there till '76.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Okay.

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WILLIE LOWERY:

So Dennis Banks and Russell Means came down to support your efforts.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

So what we were trying to do with the American Indian Movement, is that all the Indian people in this country, the living conditions about the same. Only I think the Lumbee and Tuscarora are little bit higher than the average Indian.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Right. On a reservation.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah, reservations. I went out there to Dennis' place and I went in that sweat lodge. Boy now, that's rough. They put you in there naked, and the only way I could kind of stay cool, I dug me a hole right between my feet and laid down there. I stuck my head down in there and stayed kind of cool. But when I left out of there, I was as red as a chicken.

WILLIE LOWERY:

You can't get out?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

No, you can't get out. They don't let you out, now. Everybody said I had to say a prayer in their native tongue. I was the only in there couldn't speak Indian, so I said, "Lord, I wish to God you'd let me get out of this hole." So I worked for the governor's office there in '76, and at that time the lawsuit had been—it was four or five houses built out of that lawsuit. It was Maynor versus Rogers C. B. Morton. And all the things the double voting had been abolished, we had saved Old Main, and I had worked within the system, and then I got a job, I worked with the CETA program at that time.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

CETA.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

CETA.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

What is that?

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CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

That was where they had these different organizations in the different counties that work with low income people. And I'm run their federal programs, I done that for a couple of years. Then I come back and took over general manager of Strike at the Wind. And I played Boss Strong. I done that from '79 to '87. And then I left—animosity [unclear] went overboard. I left there and I went back into sales. And I just kind of went away from the Indian movement. Because everybody was so split into different organizations I guess. That's about it. And then I went and, I told my wife that I wanted to do something that I had always wanted to, and I went into full time entertaining. And I won a singing contest out of Nashville, TN. And when you win the contest, you go in their studio, which is Big Mama Studios in Knoxville, and they let you cut a tape free, and give you 300 to sell. You could start your [unclear]. So that's what I done. I cut a tape, and then after I cut that tape, the producer wanted me to cut another one, and I cut another one. And I had two songs on the charts over in Europe. And I made a little money, then I sold my tapes, and in the process I had a son to get killed. And when he got killed then I went into retirement. And I tried that for '97 up until December of 2003. I said, I'm tired of it, and I'm going back to work. I got me a job at Domino's.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

That's quite a story. [unclear].

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Is that pretty well what you were wanting?

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Yeah. I'm curious about when you first started doing research into our Tuscarora heritage, and understanding the 22 and that whole history, was there

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a group of people in Robeson County, you included or not included, that was identifying as Tuscarora at that time?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Before I come in? Uh-uh [No].

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Yeah, or that were—was there a long house, was there—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

There was a long house, back in the '30s.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

In the '30s, okay.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

'30s and '40s and '50s. I mean, the old house where they were recognized, where they took the blood test, is still standing.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Oh yeah? Where is that?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Over there on [Hwy] 74. That curve there. Do you know where Mr. Archie lives? Archie Lowry that runs the Best Fuel, got all his equipment out there, that old house right there in front of that curve. What I wanted to do, but I never did get around to it, I wanted to it, I wanted to put a monument there. Because the 22, the way they recognized them, that was the only time in history that Indian people were recognized in that manner. The only time—the first time and the only time.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Why do you think the federal government did it that way?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Prolonged federal recognition. They were trying to prove they weren't Indians here, that's what they was trying to prove.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Illegally, they wanted to have some way of doing it so they came up with that blood.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. They had done all kinds of studies here. I give you a lot of that stuff. That was a foolish way of doing that. You could look at the people's

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pictures, some of them that look Indian didn't pass for Indian. And some that didn't look Indian would pass.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Something that people ask me often as I'm doing this research, they say, now how do you give any credit to a process or a group of tests that were so silly, and how do you deal with that question, in terms, if this sort of weird test is the basis for our recognition, how do you reconcile the fact that it appeared so useless?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Useless, but the point is, that they recognized us.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

It was the method that they used, and that was good enough for them.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Because there was so much pressure put on them, at that time Mr. Joe Brooks and Mr. Jim Chavis, and the Hammonds' and the Revels' and the Brooks' and the Locklears', they were organizing back in those days, too. And the same thing happened back then, happened to me. They split off. And it died down.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

How did it split off back then?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Jealousy among the people.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Which we have it today.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

And at that time, Mr. Fuller [Lowry] come along, you see. In the '50s, started about '50 when the Ku Klux Klan come up there in Maxton. What he done, he would call in the Indians from Prospect, Upaheads, and then the Indians across the street, River Indians.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

That was Mr. Fuller's term.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. And at that time he was a leader. And he got, it was 12—they put that Lumbee name in a vote, so that people actually voted in this 12,000 for and

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3,000 against it. At that time, I've forgot how many Indians lived in Robeson County. I don't even know. But during the studies all along, McPherson and all those people said that these people are more than one-half or more Indian blood, these people are Indians. But back when Mr. Fuller [unclear]—you see, what happened, I talked to some of the people that was very active back then, and they said that Carlyle put that phrase in there when he got to Washington, that phrase that "There shall be no benefits for Indians because of their status as Indians." You will get no benefits. That was added in there when he got to Washington. They said, Mr. Thomas over here at Saddletree, told me that was not in that bill when he left here. Carlyle was the one that introduced it in the House of Representatives. And President Ford was one from Michigan asked him on the floor of the Senate, House of Representatives. He said, "Mr. Carlyle, in other words what you're saying, we will not be obliged to give these people one penny of money." He said, "That's right." Carlyle is the one sucked us in [unclear].

MALINDA MAYNOR:

And he was a representative from here?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

I wonder why he did that.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, they hated Indians, I mean, back in those days, Lumberton was—. They just didn't matter.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

It was the political influence that [unclear].

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Well, I remember when I went to Red Springs, and the woman told me, when I was a kid. Said now, we can give you an ice cream, son, but you've got

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to eat it outside. You can't be here. I remember that, and I remember that fluently.

WILLIE LOWERY:

I do too. The drugstore over there, you couldn't—

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Over on Main Street there. I go by there and look at it and get aggravated.

WILLIE LOWERY:

They had a movie theater too.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. You couldn't sit with them. You had to go upstairs in Lumberton. And I remember me and a boy, went down to Fairmont. I'd go stay with him, same way down there. You couldn't go. You couldn't eat nothing. You couldn't do nothing.

[TAPE 1, SIDE B]

MALINDA MAYNOR:

So it was sort of the white political power structure in Lumberton that was keeping most of the Indian opportunity down?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yes, definitely. [unclear] And that was during our tenure there, that was a big issue, we just didn't have equal opportunity. Our people had to go to—they couldn't go to school here in the State of North Carolina, in Chapel Hill. They had to go out of state.

WILLIE LOWERY:

[unclear] to go out of the state.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Oh yeah, they had to go out of state. Most of them that got their degrees at that time had to leave here to go get it.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Do you want to talk a little bit more about Golden Frinks' and Howard Brooks' association with one another? Because one of the things I haven't heard too much about so far is the connections between Indians and blacks

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during that time period. I know some people say, well, they're two separate movements, and other people say, well, they're working together.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

I didn't work too much— I believe the reason, Golden Frinks, well— Howard had no education. And Golden Frinks had been in the civil rights movement for quite a while. He knew some ropes to pull, and that type thing. And he wanted to build his reputation again. So he was the brains behind that thing. But I didn't know, I didn't get all that involved with him. I did get involved with Dr. Joy Johnson, who was in the House at that time. And we worked on the issues here, and then what had Ben Franklin come down, who was with the—what organization? He was from Wilmington, he was with the Wilmington 10. We worked on the issues—cause anything that would benefit the black would benefit the Indian, cause we was about in the same boat. And we learned that from there, to go to voting together. And it happened today, that Indian people and blacks vote primarily together. But I think now the whites have begun to see that the Indian people control the political arena and now, I think the whites and Indians is working more closely together than the blacks. The blacks are kind of mad, you know. They've got nobody like the clerk of the court, or the register of deeds or the sheriff's department. They've had two or three run, you know, but they've had nobody to really combat Glenn Maynor and Jo Ann [Locklear] and Vicki [Locklear]. Now you know, you've got several on the board that are blacks and Indians, and of course that board of education has been a mockery. They can't

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stand to get together and pull together for the benefit of the people. Everybody wants their little old pie, and everybody wants to be the head. That's like this last move they made down there, I don't get involved in it all that much, but they brought this guy in from Canada, who's the superintendent, but I think he's just a figurehead, and won't do all that much. I talked with a lot of the board members, they're not satisfied with him at all. So you're stuck with it. And we had qualified people. In other words, I think you take care of your home folks first and then move out. You know what I'm saying? So I didn't have all that much to do with Howard after—the movement after I left. I believe in unity, I believe in pulling one force. Because if you've got that one over yonder fighting and that one over yonder fighting, in the end you won't accomplish nothing. All those movements didn't accomplish another thing after I left. I couldn't see a thing they'd done. Nothing. They wrote grants and that type thing, got a little money. But as far as making any dramatic change, I didn't see it.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

What did you think about the incidents of taking over the cultural center in the '80s, when Cecil and them went in there to sit in, and a bunch of them got arrested?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

You know, at that time they had two different groups. Some wanted to have the golf course, and some didn't. And [unclear].

WILLIE LOWERY:

As a result of the split off, you said some went that way and some went this way?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah, uh-huh. And then Cecil and them, Miss Mary, she was a golfer, Mary Sanderson. But I think the state pretty well got that straightened out when

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they took the golf course and put it in a separate entity by itself over there. But I understand now there ain't nobody working up there for the Indian Cultural Center. I don't think they've got anybody hired. At one time, we formed a—primarily myself—formed a local group of people to be an advocate for the North Carolina Indian Cultural Center. We'd go out there and we'd clean it up every Saturday, work all day every Saturday cutting the grass and cleaning the bathrooms. And it had went down, and we went out there and we fixed the pool, we fixed the bathrooms, we painted the bathrooms, we cut all the grass and cut all the trees down. Me and Harold Collins and Brewington over here and Mark and his wife. There was about 200 of us, would go out there every Saturday and clean up and do. So we got that in pretty good shape. We'd clean up Strike at the Wind, Buddy and John and all of us, Evans Fire Department. And then they got us wanting to fight there, and so I kind of backed out of that. [Laughter.]

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Well, Barry Nakell said it to me, I asked him, why he thought the Tuscarora groups split off, and he said, "Well, it seems to me that when one group gets a little bit of power, they don't want to share it."

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yep.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

And that was his justification.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

That's right. They get so jealous of each other. But I think what we done during that, '69 up until '86, really molded everything together. Really put everybody in Washington and Raleigh said "hey, you better watch it, they're marching over yonder. You better watch it." So I went to Washington last year and a lawyer up there, Brewington girl, she works with the Department of Justice,

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a lawyer. She told me, said, "Mr. Carnell, I want to tell you something." She says, "You know what, he says, what you all have done, back in the '70s and early '80s, '70s primarily, is the reason those organizations in Robeson County get money." She said the 22, he said every time LRDA gets a grant, Tribal Council gets a grant, the comptroller has to write off on them. And he always goes back and has a excuse to give money, because of the 22, was recognized by the BIA. So baby that's as far as I can do.

WILLIE LOWERY:

You did better than most. You did a job [unclear].

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Very good.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yep. Well, I still say there's a lot we could do. We're the most [unclear] people in the world. I mean, God has really blessed these people.

WILLIE LOWERY:

I just hope the young people don't let all that's been done in the past to move us along fall on the wayside.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

I do too.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Cause they don't have the same drive we did. They got everything will be alright, Mama and Daddy's took care of it.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah, somebody's got to pick it up and really go with it. They've got to find an issue. And what I wanted to do, I wanted to get a marker for the 22. But I wanted to get—with the good Lord's help, and some people here in locally, I got a statue—not a statue, a name marker for Mr. Jim Chavis. Have you seen that?

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Yes.

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CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

I raised 1200 dollars and had that done. I wanted to get a marker for the 22 on [Hwy] 74, and I wanted to have a streak of Highway 74 named in honor of Dr. Adolph [Dial]. Now whether we like him or not, he accomplished a great deal in his life, and he done a lot. A lot of help.

WILLIE LOWERY:

Who's that?

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Adolph, Mr. Adolph. Then I wanted to get something in the park, and Harold Collins approached me [unclear]. And then I wanted to go in the schools and have talent shows, get the best talent I could find, put it on video, and go before these big companies like Pepsi, Juicy Fruit, potato chips, and have our people on commercial television. Equal justice is what I'm talking about.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Well, right. When you think about, especially in this area, regional television, the number of Indians here, and you never see them on TV unless something bad happens.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah, that's right.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Unless somebody gets shot.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Yeah. Somebody gets shot or somebody gets arrested for dope. You see them good, before that you don't see them.

MALINDA MAYNOR:

It's amazing.

CARNELL LOCKLEAR:

Now, where do you get your money from?

MALINDA MAYNOR:

Well, UNC—