Grandmother's influence on music and ideas about gender
Greenlief discusses her grandmother's influence on her mother's musical career. Although Greenlief argues that it was primarily her grandfather who cultivated musical sensibility in his children, the ballads her mother sang to her also strongly influenced Lily May Ledford's later career in music. Additionally, Greenlief explains her grandmother's thoughts on proper gender roles, particularly in relationship to music. Elsewhere in the interview, Greenlief discusses her mother's difficulty with negotiating those roles and her comments here reveal the ways in which such ideas about gender are constructed and learned.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Barbara Greenlief, April 27, 1996. Interview R-0020. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- LISA YARGER:
-
You were talking about which person in the family Lily May got most of
her musical influence from. But didn't she learn some ballads
from your grandmother?
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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She did. Back then, I think, early on she sang occasionally when she was
rocking them, when she would rock the babies, which was something
everybody did. You know, that was the common thing. But in terms of my
grandmother interacting with other people, like when other people came
around—my grandfather had friends who would drop by to play
music, and she never interacted, as a matter of fact, it made her angry
when they would come. She felt like, well, they'll probably
stay a couple of days. I remember Mom saying sometimes they would stay,
and she would know that he wasn't going to work, you know.
[Laughter]
But I think all women in the mountains sang ballads to their
children, you know, when they were rocking. It could be that she sang
around the house; I have never heard those stories. You know, if mom
said she sang a lot around the house, that would surprise me, because I
understood that it was mostly just rocking babies, and would sing a
little, and mom, you know, got really interested in the songs and kind
of drew her out and learned them. And sometimes would have to go other
places to learn the whole song, because my grandmother
wouldn't know it; she'd just know one verse,
enough to sing to the babies.
- LISA YARGER:
-
Got you. And I know she's written in a couple of places which
songs those were that she learned from her mother. I guess
"Pretty Polly," "Barbara Allen," do
you remember others?
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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The "Little Benny" song, I think, was a song,
I'm not sure about that, but I think the "Little
Benny" is a song her mother song, and also "The Two
Orphans," the song about the two orphans, which is a song that
Jean Ritchie and a lot of others do in different versions.
It's done a lot in the Kentucky mountains. Those are the only
ones I know about. There's one called "The Brown
Girl," which could be from her mother. I would say it probably
is, because it's a very old song and it's not done
much anymore. Or from someone around that area, because it's
not something she would have picked up on in her teenage years in
mingling with dance groups, you know, so I think that's
probably another ballad that she learned at home.
- LISA YARGER:
-
What made a song acceptable or not to your grandmother? Because I know
she, there were certain things that she really did not want especially
her daughters to sing.
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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I thinks she felt it was unladylike to sing driving—fast,
driving songs, no matter what the subject was. Things that had to be
played with a fiddle, as part of the background instruments. The fiddle
has a real bad reputation among women in the mountains, as going along
with drinking and carousing and all that. I think they thought it
stimulated certain kinds of feelings in men, you know, that they
didn't want them to have. So, the fast, driving songs were
kind of a no-no. And I really—I know that she
didn't, you know, the "Pretty Polly," she
didn't want Mom to sing "Pretty Polly"
later even though she had sung that song to her, because of the subject
matter.
- LISA YARGER:
-
Oh, really?
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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Yeah. That bothered her, once she got out and started singing it in
public, you know, she didn't want that to represent what they
were—a song about a murder. So, I don't think she
had any idea that what was done there at the house would ever be a
representation of the Ledford family.
- LISA YARGER:
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I see.
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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You know, but it was.
- LISA YARGER:
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When you say unladylike, what do you think that she meant by that? Why do
you think that those songs were not fit for ladies to sing?
- BARBARA GREENLIEF:
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I think that my grandmother had a very different view of what she would
have liked the family to be, than my grandfather. I think she probably
had more discipline built into her than he did, and she, I think she
wanted them to go consistently to church on Sunday, she wanted women to
act one way and men another. She had very defined roles in her mind
about women should do and men should do. But, when you've got
the kind of talent that I think was ingrained in him, you know, and
transported to Mom, art kind of exempts that. You know, that holding
down of traditional kinds [she pounds her fist into her hand to
emphasize] of roles and, we don't move out of that, you know,
and so, I think she was very frustrated about that. She
didn't view it as a musical talent, which a lot of them
got—a lot of the children got—she viewed it as
learning to be lazy from their father. And it was real difficult for her
to look beyond that. She just, that's the way she viewed it.
So, all of the kinds of traditional things that other families did, or
that the quote "acceptable" families did, they
didn't do. And I think that that's where, her eye
was on that. That's what she wanted, but she
couldn't achieve that with this family. And maybe that came
from the Baptist background, you know, the real hard-core Baptist
background: if you do things one way, and that's the only way
you do them and you don't step out of it one way or the other
or you're going to hell. But she was always frustrated about
them not walking a narrower course.