Title:Oral History Interview with Frederick Douglas Alexander, April
1, 1975. Interview B-0065. Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Electronic Edition.
Author:
Alexander,
Frederick Douglas, interviewee
Interview conducted by
Moye, Bill
Funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services supported the
electronic publication of this interview.
Text encoded by
Jennifer Joyner
Sound recordings digitized by
Aaron Smithers
Southern Folklife Collection
First edition, 2007
Size of electronic edition: 60 Kb
Publisher: The University Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
2007.
The electronic edition is a part of the UNC-Chapel Hill digital library, Documenting the American South.
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Revision history:
2007-00-00, Celine Noel, Wanda Gunther, and Kristin Martin revised TEIHeader and created catalog record for the electronic
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Source(s):
Title of recording: Oral History Interview with Frederick Douglas
Alexander, April 1, 1975. Interview B-0065. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series B. Individual Biographies. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (B-0065)
Author: Bill Moye
Title of transcript: Oral History Interview with Frederick Douglas
Alexander, April 1, 1975. Interview B-0065. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (#4007)
Title of series: Series B. Individual Biographies. Southern Oral History
Program Collection (B-0065)
Author: Frederick Douglas Alexander
Description: 54.8 Mb
Description: 11 p.
Note:
Interview conducted on April 1, 1975, by Bill Moye;
recorded in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Note:
Transcribed by Unknown.
Note:
Forms part of: Southern Oral History Program Collection
(#4007): Series B. Individual Biographies, Manuscripts Department,
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Note:
Original transcript on deposit at the Southern
Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill.
Editorial practices An audio file with the interview complements this electronic edition. The text has been entered using double-keying and verified against the original. The text has been encoded using the recommendations for Level 4 of the TEI in
Libraries Guidelines. Original grammar and spelling have been preserved. All quotation marks, em dashes and ampersand have been transcribed as entity
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Interview with Frederick Douglas Alexander, April 1, 1975. Interview
B-0065. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007)
Alexander,
Frederick Douglas, interviewee
Interview Participants
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER, interviewee
BILL
MOYE, interviewer
[TAPE 1, SIDE A]
Page 1
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
BILL MOYE:
What I'm trying to do is to look at some of the recent happenings in
Charlotte especially the consolidation attempt you made down there in
1971. Let me just say for the record that I'm Bill Moye, and I'm talking
with Sen. Fred Alexander in his office at the Legislative Building on 1
April 1975. My understanding as to your background is that you have been
very active in Charlotte for a long period of time. A number of years.
Both through the funeral home but mainly as manager of the Double Oaks
apartment development. Very active with your brother Mr. Kelly
Alexander. Then, ran for the City Council in 1965, served as mayor pro
tem, I believe, in '71-'72. Ran for the senate in '72 and was elected
last year, '74. Like I say, I'm concentrating on the consolidation
issue. I'm wondering, who raised it? Was it primarily the Chamber of
Commerce who pushed the idea?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
You mean originally?
BILL MOYE:
Yes, sir.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, I…It was a combination of city leadership, some of it
chamber-oriented, yes, that were the motivators back of our first
attempt at consolidation.
BILL MOYE:
Was that…I've heard it said that the chamber initiated a lot of the talk
about it, got some study committees established, pushed to get the
enabling legislation passed in the legislature, got the Charter
Commission established. But, on the whole, maybe they realized, devided
they had more on their hands than they had initially wanted. That
perhaps the Charter Commission, through various of its recommendations,
maybe went beyond what the chamber had hoped for initially.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, that may have been the general idea of some people, but I cannot
see how the Charter Commission could not have gone in the direction in
which it did. In the manner in which the enabling legislation was
brought about. The fact that, if you were going into a new charter, that
it was fitting and proper that you discuss all of the elements involved
in such a
Page 2
charter. I would think this is what
happened. Perhaps all of the areas we touched meant that you were
covering a broad spectrum of community philosophies that maybe nobody
wanted to touch. I don't think it grew out of the fact that they had bit
off more than was expected. I think of course once you got into it you
realized how much it really involved. The work of the commission, as
such, I think was a dedicated effort.
BILL MOYE:
You think that it was the type of people who were chosen to serve on the
Charter Commission that brought up these ideas? The broader suggestions
about the district representation and the equal representation.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, I think that there were many persons on the committee at its
beginning that perhaps had not foreseen the depths of community problems
that they would move into in attempting to resolve a charter. I think
they grew in stature with their responsibility from the point of view of
knowledgability and acceptance and, at least, a willingness to listen if
they did not agree. As far as representation is concerned, I think that
the majority of the members of the commission certainly realized that no
form of new government could be implemented that did not give an
expanded opportunity for total community representation. I think
whatever consolidation they go into at such time that they ever do it
will still have to accept the fact that a broader spread of
representation will have to be a part of the charter of consolidation.
[Phone ringing]
As I was saying, any attempt at consolidation will have to consider an
expanded form of government. It will have to be a broad spectrum of
representation that will put into the government a more representative
group than we have now. As it is now, most of the representation comes
from a certain section of the town. This is where we are now. This is
the way it was then.
BILL MOYE:
You have supported consolidation all along?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Yes.
Page 3
BILL MOYE:
The argument was made by some that a lot of times consolidation is an
effort by the white power structure or whatever, seeing an increasing
black population in the city, perhaps to dilute the strength of that
black vote. Was that not the case in Charlotte?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
I would think that that was a part of the thinking through some of our
citizenry, and you must recognize that. That was a strong factor in its
defeat. I would not say that was the main factor in its defeat, but
certainly it was a strong factor in its defeat. Not that it would afford
more black representation solely, but it would afford more general
representation. It would dilute what had been.
BILL MOYE:
You see as much of a class sort of…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Exactly. Exactly. You must understand that. The problem of increased
black representation is to be there. Some of it that district
representation is bad because it will bring a weakened structure into
the government. Which they infer from that is that you will get
representatives from some sections of your community who do not have the
capacity to govern. This is their thinking. Well, I've seen some of all
kinds of representatives in government regardless of where they come
from. I just can't subscribe to the philosophy that district
representation gives you bad government.
BILL MOYE:
Was this consolidation attempt made…The chamber started out with it. Due
to the nature of the situation, especially because of the people who
were appointed to the Charter Commission. Got into broad issues
concerning…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
The Charter Commission was composed of a cross-section of citizens. I
think it was well representative of citizens, both city and county.
BILL MOYE:
What do you see as being the real reason behind consolidation at this
time? I mean it had been an issue that had been talked about for a
number of years, but it seems to have sort of sprung fairly suddenly
when it did. Was there a crisis of any sort that
Page 4
prompted…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
[interruption]
BILL MOYE:
Why did consolidation…What prompted the issue to come up when it did?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, I think it was a general recognizance of the fact that
consolidation is necessary to resolve many of the problems that affect a
growing community like Charlotte. There are many problems that face
Charlotte that can't be resolved on a city-county level, as such. The
restrictions of two governments comes into play. The complexity of the
philosophy of peoples in two areas comes into play. You take
transportation, for instance. We cannot adequately resolve our
transportation problems from a community point of view unless we are
dealing with a total area. You follow. The stricture or the constraints
of laws that permit counties to only do some things and cities to only
do some things, and the crossing of boundary lines which have the
constraints of law. It makes it impossible to arrive at solutions to
some of the problems that are necessary to move the community
forward.
BILL MOYE:
Was the water and sewer situation one of the major…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Yes. All of these…We have, in a sense, consolidated situations as it is
now, but a total consolidation sets up the fact of dealing with one
government. You begin to develop a one-government thinking.
Certainly… [text missing] Specially
with many of the people problems that will affect not only the country
but our local communities can be resolved from a one-government approach
rather from a two-government approach. You follow?
BILL MOYE:
Some of the opponents say, "That's just going to be another level of
government. They're all passing the buck down there now. That's just
going to make them one step higher up someway and less in touch someway
with the people." You contradict that view.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Yes, I do. I say that you come closer in contact with the people from a
consolidated government than you do in two-level
Page 5
government as we have today because your representation is broader. You
get inputs in government from elements of your communities that you
don't get otherwise. So, I'm not a believer in the fact that that type
of philosophy would cover.
BILL MOYE:
What do you think…The broader representation, the meeting the needs of
the people, more equitable, perhaps, taxation, better able to plan and
provide services…A lot of these sound very idealistic, in a way. There
have been those who say, "Maybe what we should have done was just sort
of combine the…Do away with the city council and just let the county
commission run the county, and, then, maybe, eventually we could work
out some of the problems." Why was such a thorough and, if it was,
idealistic attempt made?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, I think it was, regardless of what some may tell you prompted the
move, I think it was the acceptance of a general philosophy growing, as
I said, out of a sense of dedication of those who assumed that
responsibility and community to work for a consolidation. Bear in mind
there were many people who didn't know what they were going to wrassle
with when they set out. There were many who had no idea of the concept
of consolidation. There were many…
BILL MOYE:
Sort of a nebulus idea?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Yes. There were many who learned much from the act or the attempt of
consolidation. There were some who were convinced on more levels of it
being worthwhile. See? Now, when you speak of idealism, you must bear in
mind that the whole concept of government is idealistic. It's a question
of whether you try to make it work to serve peoples' needs, or whether
you feel that you've already developed everything that is necessary and
let nature take its course from this point on. I say that, if you
destroy the idealism back of government, then you destroy government,
and you become decadent in your philosophies and your existence. Your
communities will die on the vine.
BILL MOYE:
I think, perhaps, what was behind the choice of the word
Page 6
idealistic is that none of the, neither of the two party
chairmen were on the Charter Commission, and, maybe, that the Charter
Commission in going so thoroughly into all areas of government built up
a lot of opposition among the employees and the various groups of
government by going so thoroughly into…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
You must bear in mind that change is the hardest thing in the world in
our society to accept. It's a strange thing. The philosophy of a
democratic society is based on an acceptance of change. The structure of
our government grew out of a document that was so well written until it
allowed for change. I don't know whether they had the real wisdom to how
thorough their intellect and their…Put upon the tressel board a document
that was malleable, that could adjust itself and stretch to change as
our document has done. I think it's a marvelous thing. It's the people
that can't change. Who live under that document. This is the struggle of
government today. Trying to accept and wrassle with changes.
BILL MOYE:
Do you think that one of the problems in getting this charter passed was
just the general reluctance of the electorate to change. I mean a lot of
the opponents made a…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
A part of that was it. Then, I think that, too, was a part, as you say,
of a realization that maybe, of some citizens, that "we don't want to do
all this changing we thought we wanted to do." The strong desire to
support the change, or to bring the baby you have birthed to manhood,
was lacking.
BILL MOYE:
I've heard the comment that Charlotte in a way made a mistake in that. Of
course, this apparently was Jacksonville's second attempt, but they had
commitments from the power structure, had money in the bank as it were,
before they wrote their charter. That Charlotte went about it somewhat
differently and didn't have the commitment from a lot of the powerful
forces in the city.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
But, you must bear in mind that comparing Jacksonville's
Page 7
structure with our structure is a different situation.
Jacksonville was forced into a consideration of consolidation because of
the problems that they had in government. The beautiful thing about
Charlotte's attempt at consolidation is that Charlotte did not go into
it because it was forced to go into it by a corrupt government.
BILL MOYE:
Charlotte has had…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Fortunately, we have had a clean government. We have had the luxury of
existence under a political leadership where we have not had corrupt
governmental officials or corruption existing in departmental heads or
corruption in government totally that was such a cancer that the only
way that the only way to get rid of it was to cut out the cancer.
Charlotte went into consolidation clean, and, maybe, that was it's
mistake. That we had no corruption to force us into an acceptance of a
new form of government to get rid of the corruption. You see? So, I
don't fall over backwards when people attempt to compare or make a
comparison of our consolidation with Jacksonville because…Or any other
place. In fact, Charlotte is the only place that went into a
consideration of consolidation or a study of consolidation not being
forced to do it to get rid of some internal problem that, as I say, was
a cancer to their governmental operation. We were going into it
clean.
BILL MOYE:
You think that made it difficult to persuade people that a change was
necessary?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, you are attempting to persuade people from a philosophy rather than
from a cause celebre that said, "Looka here, this is the only way we can
get rid of the problem that we got." So you see, we did not start out
saying, "Here's our problem. We've got a problem that we've got to
resolve." It was just a question of philosophy. Whether or not we are
ahead of the game and we can do by consolidation some of the things that
we find that legal constraints, for instance, keep us from doing as it
is. Some of the things that we need to do to improve the community can
be easier done through a consolidation
Page 8
rather than
two levels of government. You see? Things perhaps being practically, in
a sense, alright as they were, who wants to bother with change? That's
one element of it. Then, you find that you've got the political element
where you've got…And, this is a narrow-minded view that existed that is
indeed unfortunate. A point of political philosophy was based on the
fact that, of course, a consolidation would also, perhaps, uproot the
politicos and would also bring in a new political force, a new political
direction, a new political leadership.
BILL MOYE:
That would challenge and perhaps…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
The status quo. Perhaps many of the political leaders would have been
left out of the picture or eased out of the picture under a
consolidation. Of course, they didn't want to see that. Of course, they
didn't want to see the strength of control diluted by poor folks and
black folks having a say-so in the governmental process. You see?
BILL MOYE:
You think that this latter point was maybe a major reason for the defeat?
I mean, this came right at the time of the school busing.
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
I think that the education issue and everything all at that same time…I
think you have some, a lot of this type of feeling that was a motivating
force to be against consolidation.
BILL MOYE:
It seems that one difficulty, perhaps, that the campaign supporting the
new charter had was, as you said, the opposition had benefit, to some
extent, of an emotional issue, perhaps deriving out of the school
busing…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Out of the school situation.
BILL MOYE:
Whereas the supporters did not have such an emotional…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Cause celebre. Other than a philosophical approach to charge.
BILL MOYE:
You talked about the political office-holders. I'm wondering, what about
the parties? Were the parties…It seemed that a lot of the opposition
leaders were Republicans. Some conservative Democrats. But, it seemed
like perhaps more of the, what party structure there is in the
Democratic party was more likely to be for and the Republicans to be
opposed. Is there any real reason for…
Page 9
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, you must bear in mind that you are moving, too, in an area where
the Republican philosophy of conservatism is beginning to show itself,
too. It was to move to ascendancy. All of these were factors. You must
bear in mind that the arch-conservative philosophy of the Republican
party, built on a law and order theme, is still prevalent. It was very
prevalent then. As I said, you have much of the conservative philosophy
raising it's head and asserting itself. Because it could see control
weakening under consolidation, under an open government so to speak. You
see?
BILL MOYE:
SO that…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
And, you're going to put control into too many hands, which makes it
difficult for arch-conservatism to advance. So, you've got to bear in
mind that you also came face-to-face with people's prejudices. Then of
course, you had the county problem of where there was a county feeling
that they would be absorbed into the big city and it would be more
costly to them than it was as it is now. The matter of taxing was also a
problem as it affected the county. Then, you also had the problem of
county representation. Where the county was fighting as hard for
representation on the county level, or adequate representation as the
minorities, poor folks and black folks, were fighting for a broader
spectrum of representation in the government period.
BILL MOYE:
Was there a difficulty in the lines for the districts? Is that one
of…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
No, it was not the difficulty in the lines for the districts. It was the
difficulty in the, serving the people in the county. That they would be
adequately represented, and that they would not be taxed out of
proportion to their control.
BILL MOYE:
There seemed to be, perhaps, also something of a … The newspaper refered
a couple of times…Sort of a mood of protest. Sort of anti almost
anything on the mood of a lot of people. Several incumbants on the
county commission and the school board had been defeated. Recreation tax
had been defeated.
Page 10
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
That's what I'm saying. All of these were the expressions of people's own
personal fears. You had a personal prejudice being expressed.
BILL MOYE:
Towards anything specific or just sort of a general…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Towards anything. As I say, you're in the midst of your educational
problem with busing, and minds were all disturbed. You had a lot of this
general protest period. The age of rebellion, so one could say.
BILL MOYE:
Difficult to get anything positive…
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Because it was difficult to get a clear mind of understanding because
everybody was more or less keyed to the busing, the educational system.
Everything was being resolved based on their feeling toward the
educational system. All of these were the various elements that were
involved in the total consolidation. Attempts to just pick out which was
the real issue…You've got a complexity of issues in it. As I say, we had
no strong cause celebre that was eating at the body politic of the total
community that was forcing this community into a consolidation as other
communities had been forced into one. We come into it with an honest
intent. Other communities were forced into it out of necessity to
maintain and save the government.
BILL MOYE:
You going to try again down there?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
We're hoping now. The existing council, and this happened before I left
council, initiated an attempt to see what can be done now about
consolidation. We just haven't been able to get cooperation from the
county on it.
BILL MOYE:
Is a lot of the problem that so many people are moving out of the city
limits? I mean, is that as much of a problem as just providing the
services and working about the water and sewer?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Well, I think you have to consider all of the problems in a community.
You don't leave out any of them. All of these are problems, too.
BILL MOYE:
Would you like to see the same sort of provisions adopted
Page 11
in a new charter?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
Most of the proposals in the charter that was proposed are good. There
are some, maybe, that, perhaps, they could look at again, but the
general provisions are good. There are many things in the existing
proposal that are still sound. In fact, there are some things that,
perhaps, nobody really wants to talk about now that would have to be
left out. You could not leave out a broad span of representation. They
would have to include district representation whether they wanted to or
not. That's a fact of life. They're not going to be able to come up with
a charter to get around that, and they're going to have a battle trying
to dilute the district representation when they get it by at-large
representation. You still, when this comes about will have a battle on
the type of representation that you get.
BILL MOYE:
Are most of the black leaders still supporting consolidation?
FREDERICK DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:
I would think that the majority of black people would support it, I don't
know. This thing called black leaders is a non-entity to me because I
never understand why black people have to be termed leaders. They don't
have white leaders, and I think this thing called black leadership
messes my people up more than anything made.